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Thread: Clay Shaw’s “Centro Mondiale Commerciale” and its Israeli connections

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Lateer View Post
    Mr. Peter Lemkin: I have discovered the following from your information:

    .........THEN THAT PROVES MY THESIS THAT THE WEST GERMAN GOVERNMENT IN COOPERATION WITH THE EX-NAZIS WORLDWIDE, PAID FOR AND ORGANIZED THE JFK ASSASSINATION.
    James Lateer
    Jim, I find no need [and personally feel uncomfortable with being addressed by my full name]. Mostly, posts are put up for all to read and react to - occasionally one may want to point them at one particular member. You are free to post as you like and what you like, just saying it is a formality I think unnecessary and overly 'formal'.

    This forum is a kind of crowd-sourcing, hopefully from knowledgeable persons with some experience in teasing truth from untruths; a nose for what is more or most important; and knowing about little known sources and research - and pointing to it or expounding on it. Sometimes it is posting our own fresh ideas - or what pieces of the 'puzzle' we think we have just fit into the larger picture - to see how others react or just to present the fruits of our own thoughts and work.

    While I personally know that real [German 3rd Reich variety] Nazis and neo-Nazies as well as other nationality fascists participated in the JFK Assassination, I find it totally incredulous that one would conclude they 'paid for an organized it'. It was, IMO, after decades of study, research, reading and personal interviews with both researchers, witnesses and even some participants a home-grown plot [as American as apple-pie laced with arsenic]; it did however use, as was SOP in covert operations many non-Americans for a variety of reasons - especially at the mechanic level. I think the intellectual [sic] forces behind the plot, the big money behind it, and the major military, police, intelligence and other forces behind it - both in its planning, commission and cover-up were mostly US citizens with the use of a hell of a lot of foreigners, many of which were Nazis, neo-nazis, fascists of various nationalities, or some stateless. That said, many to most of the US citizens that participated in it at all levels I would myself brand as fascist types - as I define 'fascist'. The working relationships between these persons and groups date back to the Second World War - where my research is currently focused. Yes, Mae Brussell was the first to coherently point these connections out, but we know so much more now than was available to her the time. I find nothing wrong with her analyses, but think many new names and connections can now be added. While most of these 'relationships' were minted at the end of the War, some were minted before the war began - and there are some very good, if old, books on just that topic. The JFK Assassination was, if nothing else, a most complex plot - and designed to be so - to hide the real actors at all levels and provide human 'chaff' that would blind any investigations for all time. Well the chaff has been seen through for the most part and the real actors become very clear - and clearer with every passing year. Sadly, those who pulled it off and their political 'heirs' are still very much in power in formal and secret governmental structures in the USA and elsewhere making sure only a few aficionados know the details - and the bulk of society think we are nutty conspiracy theorists or are so bombarded with alternative knowingly-false and invented diversionary theories that they don't know what to think. While the majority of US citizens [and most other nations citizens] do NOT believe the official version [a total lie except for the date on which the assassination took place], most do not really know what to believe - but I think we are slowly making progress in recent decades. Sadly, however, they are still afraid to ACT on the information they have gained - and knowledge implies responsibility to ACT! This is my credo and the credo of the family I grew up in. Knowing is not sufficient - it is only the start; then one must act to bring those guilty to justice and change the polity and history so that such things can never happen again. Not an easy battle - but the only one that will IMO prevent humanity from destroying itself and the entire planetary ecosystem.

    There are even entire covert agencies that have existed or still exist that are not known to most anyone. Take for example FOI [Field Operation Intelligence]. On paper [one paper!!] it was part of the CIC, but in reality it was not really. I know of two FOI officers who participated in some way in things connected to the JFK Assassination and there were only at maximum about 200 FOI officers ever. Until about 20 years ago one could be arrested in the USA for knowing about and speaking about FOI. And there are others still little or all but unknown. Yes, CIA, FBI, SS, ONI, NSA, G-2, CIC, OSS, and many other bigboy and known entities and persons took part - but some very little known ones did as well. Collins Radio is just one. I do not doubt that many Nazis who had middle to very high positions during the Reich took part in this assassination, as well as in many other dirty operations from WW2 to present, but I don't think they were the dog, but only the wagging tail.

    The first part of Angleton's statement 'a mansion has many rooms'.... was totally on the mark. The assassination plot had many, many 'rooms' and was perhaps the most complex covert action ever. However, it is knowable and the shrouds of secrecy and deception are being peeled back. We have made much progress as a group - even if we don't often fully agree. There is still much work to do and with the knowledge we must then, with our allies ACT - or history will repeat itself over and over. It already has...with RFK, MLK, Malcolm-X, OKC, WTC bombing #1, 911, Iran-Contra, untold assassinations and covert operations, false-flag wars and starts of wars, the War OF Terror [not ON terror], the unPatriot act. Global fascism is looming and IMO the US is leading the way. I focused long ago on the JFK Assassination as I saw in its structure and careful dissection the real opportunity to enlighten the general public to the dangers of the forces arrayed against democracy, rule of law, peace, justice, freedom, human rights, equality, etc - and dead set on a new oligarchic, fascist, totalitarian, police-state hell - now well in place, and needing only one more 'good' '911' to close the last trap doors..... Much work to do - even if we don't all agree on all aspects.
    If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.” - Frederick Douglass
    "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
    "Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DiEugenio View Post
    David:

    DO you actually have Szulc's Church Committee testimony?

    I have seen it referenced more than once but never seen the actual transcript.
    I'll do some digging..... The Helm docs were all undated so not in the right place....

    https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc....eId=2&tab=page

    ??? It's at MFF....
    Once in a while you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  3. #23

    Default Piper

    In response to a direct query of me on a post by David Josephs on 3-14-18, the question is asked whether I support the book Final Judgment by Michael Collins Piper? I can reply to this by saying that his book has proven valuable to me in my research, but I believe 95% of it is of no use to the researcher and is mostly a “kitchen sink” full of innuendo about Israel and Jewish involvement in the assassination. This collection of innuendo is an interesting study in itself and is unique, so that makes it somewhat valuable.
    I am tremendously indebted to author Piper for two reasons in particular:

    1. Piper prints the fact in Final Judgment that the NSA agent and informant Roy Frankhouser claimed to have been sponsored by the NSA in his active part in the JFK assassination. I have never seen this in any other JFK assassination book, but the involvement of Frankhouser can be corroborated from other sources, especially in the book “One More Victim” by Rosenthal and Gelb. They document the close involvement between Frankhouser and Nazi Dan Burroughs. There is also much more information about Frankhouser in the book Lyndon La Rouche and the New American Fascism by Dennis King.
    2. On a blog posting, Michael Collins Piper stated that the biographer of Otto Otepka, William J. Gill, was married to Countess Mechtilde Podewils, who was probably the most sensational ex-Nazi operative in the world during the 1960’s in America OR in the world. This is especially true if you consider the entire picture of her history as a spy and her marriage to the Buckley-connected Gill.

    One can see from the above, that I believe Mr. Piper had a wealth of information, going beyond which would be known by the public or gleaned from open sources. Does this point to some special connection between Piper and the intel community? I don’t know the answer to that.
    Since author Piper had the unique information about Frankhouser and Frankhouser was the head of security for LaRouche, that in itself could explain a lot. The main drift would be that Piper was promoting the same disinformation as LaRouche. In the book by King, author King shows how LaRouche would salt his disinformation with accusations against only two entities. One is Israel and “Zionists” (or Henry Kissinger, he being a prominent Jewish person) and, two, the British Monarchy.
    This pattern of disinformation could have been actual policy of the US Intel community. It could explain all the frequent mention of Sir William Stephenson, Montego Bay Jamaica, Major Louis Bloomfield, the Bronfman family, Bank Leumi of Israel, Tibor Rosenbaum, etc. etc.
    Since you reproduce a portion of the book The Bomb In The Basement-How Israel Went Nuclear by Michael Karpin, I can tell you that I read Karpin’s book fairly carefully, much more carefully than my reading of Piper’s book.
    It seems to me that anyone who reads and considers the Karpin book would realize that the Israeli Atom Bomb project was on an entirely different time schedule than JFK’s presidency. The Israelies were aided in their development of the bomb by partnering with France in France’s A-Bomb program. Although the US Government did not necessarily like nuclear proliferation, they made no attempt to halt the program of either France or Israel. The US would have had more reason to interfere with the French bomb than the Israeli Bomb, but they didn’t really care about either.
    I feel lucky in that I have (in my own mind) reached a level of understanding that I can actually apply a legal standard to test whether someone is a JFK assassination suspect. The question has to be asked “if a conspiracy revolving around Oswald actually went to trial, would the suspect be convicted as being a member of the conspiracy?” To qualify, the person would have to do some specific act to further the conspiracy or to help to further the cover-up BEFORE THE CRIMINAL ACT.
    Unfortunately, the test often used by even the best authors (even like Dr. Jeffrey Caufield in “General Walker…) is the McCarthy-Nixon style “guilt by association.” Although people instinctively buy the theory of “guilt by association” because it’s human nature, this theory of causation based on association only just interferes with accurate analysis of the evidence.
    That is why I can’t accept any theory involving James J Angleton as a perpetrator. According to my best research, Angleton was not respected by his fellow Agents and most CIA sources regard Angleton as just “warming a chair” at the CIA. Further, he is described as (basically) suffering from a THOUGHT DISORDER. According to what I have read, if you asked Angleton a question, his mind would go off on a tangent and never return.
    The same problem occurs with Major Bloomfield. No matter how close of friends he was with J Edgar Hoover or General Julius Klein (of Sonneborg), what actual act did Bloomfield do in relationship to the assassination and why would his services be required?
    I can’t come up with an answer to that type of inquiry regarding either Angleton or Bloomfield. I have a database on an Excel spreadsheet of 1500 names mentioned frequently in 30 JFK books. When you work with that large of a database, you realize you have to do some narrowing. It’s that process of narrowing which is very instructive in itself. That’s why I haven’t seen any other published hypothetical organizational charts for the JFK plot besides my own (primitive) chart which I just threw together using Excel.
    To anyone who has a decades-long history of research on JFK, I would recommend the exercise of trying to draw up a chart of the plot and how it would work. For my own research, I will probably next try to get a book on “The Law of Conspiracy”. That type of mechanical analysis is probably necessary to really (even roughly) solve the JFK case (if it ever be totally solved???).

  4. #24

    Default Nazis Planning the JFK Assassination

    In response to a discussion of the role of Nazis in the JFK assassination, let me suggest the following;

    One of the biggest impediments to solving the JFK case is the fact that we only come up with the important questions to ask when we are driving, laying in bed at night, waiting at the dentist's office, etc. Serendipity.

    So, let's just ask:

    1) Was the JFK plot planned or did it happen by people making it up "on the fly"? Arguably, Sirhan Sirhan decided on impulse to shoot Robert Kennedy. Did the JFK hit happen like that? Answer: Obviously not!

    2) If the JFK plot were planned in advance, on what scale would it have been planned? Only in Dallas, only in Dallas and New Orleans, etc? Answer: Since it involved "fixing" at the Pentagon and influencing Military Intelligence, it was obviously broader than just Dallas and New Orleans.

    3) Since it was planned on at least a nationwide scale, was it planned by an individual or a committee?
    Answer: Even if it were planned by a committee, there would have to be a quarterback who was acting in real time to react to crises, such as if JFK didn't get hit and killed or if Oswald had called in sick on 11-22-63.

    4) Who would have had the skills to lead such an operation and/or plan it? Answer: It had to be someone who had experience planning large-scale assassinations which impacted an entire nation.

    5) Of known suspects, who had that level of skill? Answer: Allen Dulles, General Charles Willoughby, General Reinhard Gehlen, and Nazis who were involved in Operation Valkyrie, the plot to kill Hitler.

    6) Which one of these people did the planning? Answer: No matter which one you pick, the path still leads back to those involved with Operation Valkyrie. Dulles was intimately involved with the Paperclip Nazis, Gehlen too, Willoughby claimed to have connections to "Wilhelmine Germany" and was likely a German Spy, General Adolf Heusinger was standing next to Hitler when the bomb went off: he also commanded around 400 people at the Pentagon on 11-22-63 in his NATO position. And there are many more such as Dornberger, von Braun, Countess Podewils, etc. etc.

    It's my opinion that there were only people who would have had the experience to confidently plan a plot of such scope. I think it would have to be people who had spent more than 10 years involved in the paranoid intrigue that governed the German General Staff and the Nazi heirarchy. There were plenty of people in this category involved in the USA on 11-22-63.

    All of this excludes, of course, people in the Khrushchev government in the Soviet Union, and people in MI6 and/or the British SOE who had assassinated General Reinhard Heydrich in Czechoslovakia.

    Although General Charles Willoughby had been in charge of intelligence under MacArthur and had planned intel operations on a nationwide (Japan) scale, its unlikely that he and MacArthur planned or carried out assassination plots affecting the whole of Japan.

    Add to this the fact that Private Eugene B Dinkin was working within 120 miles of Bonn, Germany and still got advanced knowledge of the plot. Dinkin was able to name the category of people who were behind the plot. This is almost definitive proof that the plot was hatched and/or planned over in Europe and probably in Bonn or Pullach, Bavaria. I guess I lean toward Pullach because of its seclusion.

    As for who paid the money for the JFK plot, (because of money-laundering machinery), there is no way to even remotely guess who all contributed financially.

    James Lateer

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    Arguably, Sirhan Sirhan decided on impulse to shoot Robert Kennedy.

    If this really where we are here?

    James... I was wiling to overlook the reliance on PIPER... but you really must be kidding here with this statement...

    Right?
    Once in a while you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

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    William Kelly did a couple of decent blog posts that looked at connections between the JFK hit and Operation Valkyrie. A lot of them were from Dulles and his friendships back in the day to various nasty folk back in Europe. It's certainly something to consider.

    But a lot of those numbered questions posted above can really be answered with the letters 'CIA'. Who had experiencing running plots that had impacted an entire nation? I recall the CIA had a few of those, both before and after the JFK hit

    Also, is Valkyrie really a great example when talking about people running a successful plot? I read a book on Valkyrie in the local library. I remember a grim chapter near the end when a majority of participants ended up dead. I recall their plan was to kill Hitler and take command of Germany. Hitler survived and his command continued for some time afterwards. I wish the JFK hit had been as much of a shambolic near miss as the Valkyrie plot was.

    It's my opinion that there were only people who would have had the experience to confidently plan a plot of such scope.
    I dunno to be honest James. I also disagree with the description of Sirhan being an impulse shooter, for what it's worth. Lisa Pease's book, out in September, should have much to say about that.

  7. #27

    Default Sirhan Sirhan

    I have only read one book on the RFK murder. That was also from my local library. Obviously, there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence that RFK was murdered to assure the cover-up of the JFK murder. But according to the book I read, there is no ballistic, film, eyewitness or other evidence to show that anyone else was a shooter besides Sirhan. And he apparently had no personal motive other than impulse.

    One could surmise that his family was rewarded for his act. But nobody has proven that. I can only go on what I have seen as evidence. Sirhan had no motive to kill RFK but he also was pretty much of the same profile of all these Isis extremist nut-balls, i.e. rootless, friendless, semi-coherent in his thinking and statements (although he said some pretty profound things, too, mixed-in).

    My research and reading goes in the direction of open doors. I just didn't see any open doors or unreconciled issues in the Sirhan case. It's exactly like Chappaquiddick. It looks circumstantially like a plot. But if there's no evidence and no leads, there is no place to begin looking. Time may be better spent looking into German-American relations 1935-1963 or Italian Politics 1935-1963. Those are issues that clearly beg for more clarification.

    And (thanks to this website) there needs to be more research into Guy Banister. From the 1960 FBI file, he looks more like a "good-guy" than "bad-guy." Dr. Caufield strongly believes that Garrison was totally faking his accusations (or lack thereof) against right-wingers and was totally conflicted and pulling his punches with regard to people like Leander Perez and Kent Courtney. Garrison had apparently represented segregationists and possibly KKK types in his role as States Attorney. Its interesting that the FBI report on Banister as of 1960 ALREADY has him connected to Courtney and Perez.

    Courtney was an author of a 1963 treatise on Arms Control (not in his field). It was almost of clone of a treatise on the same subject by Judge Robert Morris in 1963. (The Nuclear Test Ban Treaty of 1963 was a major pretext for the assassination). And Perez was standing next to Huey Long when Huey Long was assassinated in 1935. So it looks superficially like Banister was an FBI mole or spy of some kind who was ensnaring these (probably murderous) right-wingers in New Orleans starting when he "resigned" from the FBI in Chicago in 1954. Banister might even have been secretly monitoring even bigger fish like James O Eastland and Mayor de Lesseps Morrison, the close relative of Hale Boggs' wife. Not to mention Boggs himself.

    I hope these new leads keep coming. They're great.

    But my mind is completely open on Sirhan. Just don't have any real specific clues.

    James Lateer

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Thorne View Post
    William Kelly did a couple of decent blog posts that looked at connections between the JFK hit and Operation Valkyrie. A lot of them were from Dulles and his friendships back in the day to various nasty folk back in Europe. It's certainly something to consider.

    But a lot of those numbered questions posted above can really be answered with the letters 'CIA'. Who had experiencing running plots that had impacted an entire nation? I recall the CIA had a few of those, both before and after the JFK hit

    Also, is Valkyrie really a great example when talking about people running a successful plot? I read a book on Valkyrie in the local library. I remember a grim chapter near the end when a majority of participants ended up dead. I recall their plan was to kill Hitler and take command of Germany. Hitler survived and his command continued for some time afterwards. I wish the JFK hit had been as much of a shambolic near miss as the Valkyrie plot was.

    It's my opinion that there were only people who would have had the experience to confidently plan a plot of such scope.
    I dunno to be honest James. I also disagree with the description of Sirhan being an impulse shooter, for what it's worth. Lisa Pease's book, out in September, should have much to say about that.
    Sirhan Sirhan was a mind-controlled patsy who shot from the wrong side and wrong angle to have fired any of the fatal shots. The trigger for him to fire was the polka-dot lady seen running down the fire escape with a man yelling 'we killed him, we killed him' and disappearing into the night with the complicity of the LAPD [who played a major part in the assassination and cover-up]. The real shooter was behind RFK and was likely Eugene Thane Cesar who was supposed to 'guard' RFK and had intelligence connections, sold his incriminating gun, and did all sorts of other incriminating things - and was/is protected by CIA and LAPD to this day. There were other plotters, but not likely other shooters. There were more bullets removed from the ceiling and door frame than could have been in Sirhan's gun - proof that he did not shoot alone. I can't go into all of the details here - there are several good threads on this on this forum and lots of good books - the best one IMO by Turner and Christian which I have three copies of and was never officially published [doesn't exist at the Library of Congress]...it was printed and stacked on pallets ready for distribution when the CIA called the publisher and it was agreed all copies would be destroyed. Some quick thinking forklift drivers who were moving the pallets to the incinerator took home several hundred copies thinking they might make some money selling them....thus preserving a few copies which I eventually got a few of and had Turner sign. It is a lovely hardbound edition that doesn't officially exist....much like our own government which is but a Potemkin Village behind the stage set of which are the Secret Structures that really run most everything - the rest is window dressing to fool these who see the Empire with its clothes on.

    Bill Kelly's articles on comparing Valkyrie and Dallas was not so much on that one failed and one sadly succeeded - but in the parallel construction of many of the 'moving parts'. I find his analysis very informative, and suggest his articles on his blog 'JFK countercoup' to any serious researcher.

    None of the major [and most of the minor] assassinations took place according to the 'official version'. The official version was a knowing BIG LIE and propaganda smoke screen. I can think of no publicly known assassination in which there really was only a 'lone assassin'...and that would include John Lennon and a list about 50 long or longer. [in that case the doorman was intelligence and special forces connected]. All the 'lone nut assassins' fit a certain profile and planned built-up legends. When will the US Public ever learn?....
    Last edited by Peter Lemkin; 03-16-2018 at 06:31 AM.
    If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.” - Frederick Douglass
    "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
    "Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn

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    To expound on what Peter said about the RFK hit:

    Wrong side, wrong angle, too many bullets (RFK was shot four times, and five other people were shot, one of them twice), and bullet holes in the ceiling and door jamb.

    Meaning a minimum of AT LEAST ten bullets fired, and a possible maximum of 13-15 bullets. Which automatically excludes Sirhan as being the cherished "lone assassin", since his gun was A) a revolver, which precludes any kind of rapid reloading, and B) Sirhan's gun only held eight bullets. And the LAPD knew this. Hence why they "routinely" destroyed both the door jambs and ceiling tiles.
    "Logic is all there is, and all there is must be logical."

    "Truth is logic, and logic is truth."

    "In a nation run by swine, all pigs are upward-mobile and the rest of us are fucked until we can put our acts together: not necessarily to win, but mainly to keep from losing completely." - Hunter S. Thompson

    "A paranoid is someone who knows a little of what's going on. A psychotic is a guy who's just found out what's going on." - William S. Burroughs

  10. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by James Lewis View Post
    To expound on what Peter said about the RFK hit:

    Wrong side, wrong angle, too many bullets (RFK was shot four times, and five other people were shot, one of them twice), and bullet holes in the ceiling and door jamb.

    Meaning a minimum of AT LEAST ten bullets fired, and a possible maximum of 13-15 bullets. Which automatically excludes Sirhan as being the cherished "lone assassin", since his gun was A) a revolver, which precludes any kind of rapid reloading, and B) Sirhan's gun only held eight bullets. And the LAPD knew this. Hence why they "routinely" destroyed both the door jambs and ceiling tiles.
    Little noticed was what Michael Ruppert said to prove complicity of the LAPD in the RFK assassination and the ties of LAPD head Darrell Gates to the intelligence community [along with some others in the SUS unit that investigated [sic] the assassination for the LAPD. You can find this in his writings in his online magazine that I believe is still online or in his book Crossing the Rubicon. Most major city police departments have long had embedded CIA, FBI, MI and other intelligence agents, operatives and fellow-travelers. LAPD was one of the worst, and IMO the reason LA was chosen for the hit on RFK. Good books by Pepper also show that Sirhan was but a patsy and the LAPD were the mid-level culprits, with the CIA and others above them - the same configuration used in Dallas [just substitute DPD for LAPD] and change a few peripheral characters and the means of public execution.
    If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.” - Frederick Douglass
    "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
    "Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn

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