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Thread: The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

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    As for Tippit's gun, the trail grows cold after Scoggins returns to 10th and hands it off to DPD. There's no indication as to how it came into Bardin's possession, but the topic loses much of its interest at this point
    To me, Croy claiming to have taken Tippit's gun... AND an unnamed uniformed policeman brings "a pistol" to Methodist....

    Why not Croy again?


    Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was?
    Mr. CROY. No; I didn't get his name. There was a private detective agency. There was a report that a cabdriver had picked up Tippit's gun and had left, presumably. They don't know whether he was the one that had shot Tippit, or whether the man, I think it was he, brought someone out there, something. Anyway, he saw it and he picked up Tippit's gun and attempted to give chase or something like that.
    Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a detective who was an eyewitness?
    Mr. CROY. No; he brought the taxi driver back to the scene.
    Mr. GRIFFIN. But the taxicab driver was an eyewitness?
    Mr. CROY. As far as I know.
    Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to the taxicab driver?

    Mr. CROY.
    No; I took Tippit's gun and several other officers came up, and I turned him over to them and they questioned him.
    Once in a while you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  2. Default

    To me, Croy claiming to have taken Tippit's gun... AND an unnamed uniformed policeman brings "a pistol" to Methodist....

    Why not Croy again?
    Wearing a white hat --

    Nurse Lottie Thompson: "I don't believe (there were any policemen around when the ambulance attendants first brought Tippit into hospital). There was a lot of excitement running around. But the first one I remember at all was a man in a white cap. And I believe at that time they were sargeants [sic] or, weren't they?"

    Possibly Croy drove to Methodist after receiving Tippit's gun from Scoggins, waited a bit until Bardin showed up and handed it off to him. He had plenty of time, but it's a stretch. Thompson's recollections are muddled and do not mesh well with either Butler's or Bardin's/Davenport's.

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    Nurse Lottie Thompson: "I don't believe (there were any policemen around when the ambulance attendants first brought Tippit into hospital). There was a lot of excitement running around. But the first one I remember at all was a man in a white cap. And I believe at that time they were sargeants [sic] or, weren't they?"

    Croy was a Reservist....

    Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the reserves.
    Mr. CROY. Since August of 1959.
    Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold any rank in the reserves?
    Mr. CROY. I am a sergeant.


    And you'll never guess what color hat he wore that day.... that's him on the right, same sour face


    http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion....th-hudson-croy



    Attached Images Attached Images
    Once in a while you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  4. Default

    Armstrong's updated Tippit murder scenario has nothing about this, omitting the cab ride & aftermath altogether. A little disappointing but I suppose the effort is not intended to be comprehensive. Much of the Westbrook conjecture is persuasive.
    https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/Tippit.html

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    I spoke with him these last few days and yes, he has not connected CROY with the Methodist hospital scene...

    Something of note... The ambulance driver Clayton mentions a "Plastic bag" with Tippit's gun brought by the white hatted sergeant...

    Plastic bags were not a common thing until after 1965... so while he says this in 1975, I have to wonder what Clayton was talking about, and where someone would even get a "plastic bag"

    In 1965, Swedish company Celloplast came up with the design on which all modern plastic shopping bags are based: a tube of plastic sealed at the bottom to allow for the packaging of goods, an open top to insert such items into the bag and handles for convenient carrying. This model bag, which later became known as the “T-shirt plastic bag,” was made from high-density polyethylene, or No. 2-type plastic – the same used to produce plastic bottles and plastic lumber.
    Once in a while you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Josephs View Post
    I spoke with him these last few days and yes, he has not connected CROY with the Methodist hospital scene...

    Something of note... The ambulance driver Clayton mentions a "Plastic bag" with Tippit's gun brought by the white hatted sergeant...

    Plastic bags were not a common thing until after 1965... so while he says this in 1975, I have to wonder what Clayton was talking about, and where someone would even get a "plastic bag"

    In 1965, Swedish company Celloplast came up with the design on which all modern plastic shopping bags are based: a tube of plastic sealed at the bottom to allow for the packaging of goods, an open top to insert such items into the bag and handles for convenient carrying. This model bag, which later became known as the “T-shirt plastic bag,” was made from high-density polyethylene, or No. 2-type plastic – the same used to produce plastic bottles and plastic lumber.
    Thanks for this info! The case against Moriarty keeps gaining strength, his team's evidence gathering an exercise in creative writing, now consisting of three known pieces of fiction.

    1. Fabrication from scratch of Tatum's story.
    2. Improved Bowley (injection of "Mexican man" & "a white female wearing a white uniform"), cf. Bowley's DPD statement.
    3. Jasper Clayton Butler's anachronism.

    Tatum's red Ford is a necessary element of his tale, whether real or imaginary. Why does Armstrong put him into a Fairlane? He put himself into a Galaxie XL 500 according to the 5/13/86 interview. Did someone run a plate check? Perhaps the answer is in Moriarty's notes, but he couldn't find them in 1986.

    An irresistible tendency to tinker with narrative details is a sure sign of a tall tale as a work in progress and a failure to recognize that once the tale is made public subsequent edits give away the game. The amusing part is how some theorists extol significant revisions when they support a pet hypothesis and blame those that don't on defective memory.
    Last edited by Milo Reech; 10-09-2018 at 06:44 PM. Reason: name correction

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo Reech View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by David Josephs View Post
    I spoke with him these last few days and yes, he has not connected CROY with the Methodist hospital scene...

    Something of note... The ambulance driver Clayton mentions a "Plastic bag" with Tippit's gun brought by the white hatted sergeant...

    Plastic bags were not a common thing until after 1965... so while he says this in 1975, I have to wonder what Clayton was talking about, and where someone would even get a "plastic bag"

    In 1965, Swedish company Celloplast came up with the design on which all modern plastic shopping bags are based: a tube of plastic sealed at the bottom to allow for the packaging of goods, an open top to insert such items into the bag and handles for convenient carrying. This model bag, which later became known as the “T-shirt plastic bag,” was made from high-density polyethylene, or No. 2-type plastic – the same used to produce plastic bottles and plastic lumber.
    Thanks for this info! The case against Moriarty keeps gaining strength, his team's evidence gathering an exercise in creative writing, now consisting of three known pieces of fiction.

    1. Fabrication from scratch of Tatum's story.
    2. Improved Bowley (injection of "Mexican man" & "a white female wearing a white uniform"), cf. Bowley's DPD statement.
    3. Clayton's anachronism.

    Tatum's red Ford is a necessary element of his tale, whether real or imaginary. Why does Armstrong put him into a Fairlane? He put himself into a Galaxie XL 500 according to the 5/13/86 interview. Did someone run a plate check? Perhaps the answer is in Moriarty's notes, but he couldn't find them in 1986.

    An irresistible tendency to tinker with narrative details is a sure sign of a tall tale as a work in progress and a failure to recognize that once the tale is made public subsequent edits give away the game. The amusing part is how some theorists extol significant revisions when they support a pet hypothesis and blame those that don't on defective memory.

    1. Fabrication from scratch of Tatum's story. H&L p.843: Jack Roy Tatum stopped his 1964 red Ford Galaxie 500 at the corner of 10th and Denver, before turning west onto 10th Street.
    Where does Armstrong
    "put him into a Fairlane?"

    2. Improved Bowley (injection of "Mexican man" & "a white female wearing a white uniform"), cf. Bowley's DPD statement. I'm sorry Milo but I cannot find any reference to Benavidas (Mexican Man) or Markham (email wearing uniform) in either his FBI affidavit or the DPD statement...

    3. Clayton's anachronism. I don't understand what you refer to here... the plastic bag thing?

    Once in a while you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  8. Default

    1. Fabrication from scratch of Tatum's story. H&L p.843: Jack Roy Tatum stopped his 1964 red Ford Galaxie 500 at the corner of 10th and Denver, before turning west onto 10th Street.
    Where does Armstrong
    "put him into a Fairlane?"

    2. Improved Bowley (injection of "Mexican man" & "a white female wearing a white uniform"), cf. Bowley's DPD statement. I'm sorry Milo but I cannot find any reference to Benavidas (Mexican Man) or Markham (email wearing uniform) in either his FBI affidavit or the DPD statement...

    3. Clayton's anachronism. I don't understand what you refer to here... the plastic bag thing?
    1. "As Oswald and Tippit were talking, Jack Roy Tatum was driving west on 10th St. in his new, red, Ford Fairlane."
    https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/Tippit.html

    2. HSCA 11/12/77
    http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu...o-arm/id/11555
    pp.12,13
    Note: "Mexican male" on 12 & "Mexican man" on 13, also "a white female wearing a white uniform" bottom of 12.

    3. Yes, if info is correct it means a rewrite man didn't do his homework.

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo Reech View Post
    1. Fabrication from scratch of Tatum's story. H&L p.843: Jack Roy Tatum stopped his 1964 red Ford Galaxie 500 at the corner of 10th and Denver, before turning west onto 10th Street.
    Where does Armstrong
    "put him into a Fairlane?"

    2. Improved Bowley (injection of "Mexican man" & "a white female wearing a white uniform"), cf. Bowley's DPD statement. I'm sorry Milo but I cannot find any reference to Benavidas (Mexican Man) or Markham (email wearing uniform) in either his FBI affidavit or the DPD statement...

    3. Clayton's anachronism. I don't understand what you refer to here... the plastic bag thing?
    1. "As Oswald and Tippit were talking, Jack Roy Tatum was driving west on 10th St. in his new, red, Ford Fairlane."
    https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/Tippit.html

    2. HSCA 11/12/77
    http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu...o-arm/id/11555
    pp.12,13
    Note: "Mexican male" on 12 & "Mexican man" on 13, also "a white female wearing a white uniform" bottom of 12.

    3. Yes, if info is correct it means a rewrite man didn't do his homework.

    1. I sent John the two different sentences about the Galaxie and Fairlane... let's see what he says

    2. Not a real material change... it was not in his Dec 1963 affidavit, nor written in his DPD statement....
    I think it just adds credibility to his story (and helps prove the CROY was not there), despite it being remembered and/or added in 1977

    3. Big assumption... I just guess that it was a bag of some sort... but the lack of ID for any of these people is staggering... Croy claims to have taken Tippit's pistol (among so many other things he claims he did) and he does match the "white hatted sergeant" description...

    Curious - what do you think the significance of Tippit's pistol and it's journey is on the JFK situation?
    DJ


    From John's newest write-up:

    Both Westbrook and Croy were interviewed by the WC, but neither man said anything about the 2nd wallet. In early 1996 FBI agent James Hosty published his book, Assignment: Oswald. For the first time, Hosty described how Capt. Westbrook showed a wallet to fellow police officers at 10th & Patton that contained identification for Lee Harvey Oswald and Alex Hidell.

    Hosty, however, was unable to explain how Westbrook acquired the wallet nor could he explain what Westbrook did with the wallet. Capt. Westbrook never, ever, discussed the wallet with anyone. When JFK researchers first learned about the 2nd Oswald wallet (early 1996) they were desperate to interview Westbrook.

    They soon learned that less than a month before Hosty's book was released, Capt Westbook suddenly died. Researcher Jones Harris then quickly arranged for an interview with the first police officer at 10th & Patton, Sgt. Kenneth Croy. For the first time Sgt. Croy was asked what he knew about the 2nd wallet, and told Harris that an "unknown witness" gave him gave the wallet, which he then gave to Westbrook. It should not surprise anyone to learn there is, and never has been, any evidence to support or verify Croy's claim.
    Once in a while you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  10. Default

    2. Not a real material change... it was not in his Dec 1963 affidavit, nor written in his DPD statement....
    I think it just adds credibility to his story (and helps prove the CROY was not there), despite it being remembered and/or added in 1977
    Immaterial with respect to Croy's putative role, but a badly needed piece of evidentiary support for the role of Benavides as eyewitness, an issue discussed at the beginning of this thread. Until Bowley's oblique references in 1977 only Benavides placed himself at the murder scene when the shots were fired. Moriarty's assignment was to fortify & shore up WR with respect to the Tippit murder, and that's exactly what he did.

    Curious - what do you think the significance of Tippit's pistol and it's journey is on the JFK situation?
    Not much other than the ramifications of the actual cab commandeer event, triggering the need to cover them up by recasting the ride as a preposterous car chase. In other words if Olsen had slipped away with Scoggins sans Tippit's gun the episode of fugitive pursuit by cab would not have been fabricated.
    Last edited by Milo Reech; 10-10-2018 at 09:18 AM.

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