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Thread: The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

  1. Default Switching gears: TF White / the Red Falcon / Whaley / Vaganov

    The little area called OAK CLIFF sure was a hotbed of activity those months in 1963...
    Tippit was having a prolonged affair with a woman he met at 404/6/8/10 10th street near Patton - yet we have a hard time connecting that relationship to why he was there that moment and why he was killed.

    Part of the legend of Tippit and Oswald is a sighting and a location which until now hadn't dawned on me...

    500 N Beckley... ..... the El Chico Restaurant... one wonders if this was a meeting place for the Alpha/DRE/JURE groups in Dallas those previous months... anyone know?
    DJ


    #1
    Between 1:45 and 2pm on Nov 22, TF White claims to have seen someone looking a lot like Oswald in a 1961 Red Ford Falcon in the parking lot of the El Chico Restaurant located at
    .... 500 N Beckley

    At this time Harvey Oswald is being taken from the Theater to the DPD... Tippit is dead, 500 N Beckley is closer to 10th/Patton than the Texas Theater (see map below)... White says the RED FALCON DROVE UP with the Oswald looking man driving...

    When Mack Pate returned from his lunch break a few minutes later, T. F. White pointed out to his boss the oddly parked Falcon with its waiting driver who seemed to be hiding. Pate told White to watch the car carefully, reminding him of earlier news reports they had heard about a possible assassination attempt against President Kennedy in Houston the day before involving a red Falcon.
    T. F. White walked across the street to investigate. He halted about ten to fifteen yards from the car. He could see the driver was wearing a white t-shirt. The man turned toward White and looked at him full face. White stared back at him. Not wanting to provoke a possible assassin, White began a retreat to the garage. However, he paused, took a scrap of paper from his coveralls pocket, and wrote down the Texas license plate of the car: PP 4537.





    #2
    One of the more interesting Oswald look-a-likes was IGOR VAGANOV; a Latvian who was 24 on Nov 22...his is a very interesting story involving bigamy, driving thru most of eastern USA about the same time Ruth Paine was, and was living in Oak Cliff at 815 Sunset Ave

    (JA notebook Baylor)
    Rather than take his wife Martha with him, he ran away with a teenage girl named Anne Dulin and committed bigamy by marrying Anne in South Carolina.
    This elopement did not please Anne's stepfather, Stan Cukowski from Village Green, PA, who reported the matter to juvenile authorities and who in the course of his complaint mentioned that Vaganov
    claimed to have urgent business in Dallas and was traveling in a red Ford Thunderbird with a 2-way radio, a .38 pistol, and a rifle.
    As of November 12th, Vaganov was residing at Sunset Manor, 815 Sunset Road in Dallas, Texas.*



    It is not known how he occupied his time for the next week but as of November 18th, he was working at

    Texas Consumer Finance located at 1310 Commerce Street next to Jack Ruby's Carousel Club located at 1312 Commerce Street.* He quit his job on November 20th.*
    Vaganov stopped briefly in Georgia and Alabama

    Here is a famous picture showing what many think is Oswald at Ruby's club... seems to me he looks more like Igor here... given he "worked" next door and quits on the 20th...
    FWIW...



    Notice please this photo is taken at the intersection of 10th and Patton....


    SA TERENCE D DINAN reporting:
    At approximately 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963, VAGANOV came to the apartment, appeared very upset and told his wife that the President had been shot. They turned on the television, VAGANOV stayed about fifteen minutes and left, saying that he had to cash a check.* He returned approximately one hour later and stayed at the apartment until 3:30 or 4:00 PM, when he was interviewed by two FBI Agents.
    VAGANOV, at that time, had in his possession a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight and a Colt .33 Caliber Revolver. Immediately after the Agents departed, VAGANOV told his wife that he was returning to Pennsylvania and that he would be back November 25, 1963, to pick her up. He took with him the rifle and told his wife that he was going to dispose of it


    *Vaganov, in January 1967, was on probation from CA for passing bad checks


    #3
    William Whaley claims to have taken "Oswald" on his trip home... or at least TOWARDS his rooming house... yet Whaley is very specific about what this Oswald asks him, repeatedly

    "said he wanted to go to the 500 Blk of No. Beckley" on a route which takes him directly past his rooming house... yet when we look at this testimony - everyone is fine with Whaley saying NECHES... :


    But when I got pretty close to 500 block at Neches and North Beckley which is the 500 block, he said, "This will do fine," and I pulled over to the curb right there. He gave me a dollar bill, the trip was 95 cents. He gave me a dollar bill and didn't say anything, just got out and closed the door and walked around the front of the cab over to the other side of the street. Of course, traffic was moving through there and I put it in gear and moved on, that is the last I saw of him.

    Mr. BALL. When you parked your car you parked on what street?
    Mr. WHALEY. I wasn't parked, I was pulled to the curb on Neches and North Beckley.
    Mr. BALL. Neches, corner of Neches and North Beckley?
    Mr. WHALEY. Which is the 500 block.
    Mr. BALL. What direction was your car?
    Mr. WHALEY. South.

    Mr. BALL. Here is Neches right here.

    Mr. WHALEY. Let me see where Neches is, is that right? Yes, that is it.
    This is the intersection right there.
    Mr. BALL. We put an "X" there.
    Mr. WHALEY. That is where he got off.
    Mr. BALL. That is where you dropped your passenger, is that right?
    Mr. WHALEY. That is--as far as I can see that is Neches.
    Mr. BALL. That is Neches, that is Beckley.

    Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is right, because that is the 500 block of North Beckley.
    Mr. BALL. Now, we will mark the beginning of your trip on the large map as "Y", and where you dropped your passenger as an "X".
    Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
    Mr. BALL. "Y" is the corner of Lamar and Jackson, and "X" is the corner of Neches and Beckley



    CE371 - a small map of Dallas - is being used for Whaley to put his marks... Here is the pertinent section of that map...
    and the link...https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc....d=992&tab=page I cannot see any "X"'s on this map



    Whaley even brags about his knowledge of the street in Dallas... the 500 block of N Beckley is down by 7th & 8th streets... we will see how a number of things converge at 500 N Beckley

    Mr. WHALEY. You name an intersection in the city of Dallas and I will tell you what is on all four corners.
    Mr. BALL. Did you stop and let your passenger out on this run on the north or south side of the intersection?
    Mr. WHALEY. On the north side, sir.
    Mr. BALL. North side?
    Mr. WHALEY. Yes.
    Mr. BALL. That would be--
    Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner.
    Mr. BALL. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley?
    Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley.


    I am at a total loss for how BALL and the rest allow "NECHES" to be repeated and referred to over and over while it was completely incorrect... in his March 12, 1964 testimony


    There is no corner of "Beckley/Neches" but you can see the EAST end start of Neches from 1026 N Beckley. It's possible he could have meant NEELY... but even that is not at the 500 BLK of Beckley...

    Until he is called back to testify on April 8, 1964... this time the story changes entirely...

    it is now the 700 block of Beckley at NEELY... that Oswald said he wanted to get out of the cab... Luckily we have his handwritten affidavit.... from this 37 years of experience cab driver who knows all the intersections in Dallas
    which shows he said and meant to say the 500 block of N Beckley.

    How "Neches" gets into the equation is anybody's guess...







    #4
    Scoggins picked up a fare at LOVE Field and takes him to the same apartments Olsen and his wife-to-be-girlfriend (ex Ruby stripper Kay) lives, dropping him off around 1pm..

    Scoggins would then travel down 8th street to Patton and turn left driving past his Gentlemen's club, turning around and park facing north on the East side of Patton.

    500 N Beckley is 2 blocks over and 2 blocks up from 10th/Patton ... and appears to be a nexus related to the Tippit murder

    As I wrote earlier, this "CLUB" is directly across from the alley where the 2nd patrol car (WESTBROOK/CROY?) would have to enter and exit to have traveled up the driveway between 400 and 404 E 10th.

    Once in a while you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  2. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Josephs View Post
    The little area called OAK CLIFF sure was a hotbed of activity those months in 1963...
    Tippit was having a prolonged affair with a woman he met at 404/6/8/10 10th street near Patton - yet we have a hard time connecting that relationship to why he was there that moment and why he was killed.

    Part of the legend of Tippit and Oswald is a sighting and a location which until now hadn't dawned on me...

    500 N Beckley... ..... the El Chico Restaurant... one wonders if this was a meeting place for the Alpha/DRE/JURE groups in Dallas those previous months... anyone know?
    DJ


    #1
    Between 1:45 and 2pm on Nov 22, TF White claims to have seen someone looking a lot like Oswald in a 1961 Red Ford Falcon in the parking lot of the El Chico Restaurant located at
    .... 500 N Beckley

    At this time Harvey Oswald is being taken from the Theater to the DPD... Tippit is dead, 500 N Beckley is closer to 10th/Patton than the Texas Theater (see map below)... White says the RED FALCON DROVE UP with the Oswald looking man driving...

    When Mack Pate returned from his lunch break a few minutes later, T. F. White pointed out to his boss the oddly parked Falcon with its waiting driver who seemed to be hiding. Pate told White to watch the car carefully, reminding him of earlier news reports they had heard about a possible assassination attempt against President Kennedy in Houston the day before involving a red Falcon.
    T. F. White walked across the street to investigate. He halted about ten to fifteen yards from the car. He could see the driver was wearing a white t-shirt. The man turned toward White and looked at him full face. White stared back at him. Not wanting to provoke a possible assassin, White began a retreat to the garage. However, he paused, took a scrap of paper from his coveralls pocket, and wrote down the Texas license plate of the car: PP 4537.





    #2
    One of the more interesting Oswald look-a-likes was IGOR VAGANOV; a Latvian who was 24 on Nov 22...his is a very interesting story involving bigamy, driving thru most of eastern USA about the same time Ruth Paine was, and was living in Oak Cliff at 815 Sunset Ave

    (JA notebook Baylor)
    Rather than take his wife Martha with him, he ran away with a teenage girl named Anne Dulin and committed bigamy by marrying Anne in South Carolina.
    This elopement did not please Anne's stepfather, Stan Cukowski from Village Green, PA, who reported the matter to juvenile authorities and who in the course of his complaint mentioned that Vaganov
    claimed to have urgent business in Dallas and was traveling in a red Ford Thunderbird with a 2-way radio, a .38 pistol, and a rifle.
    As of November 12th, Vaganov was residing at Sunset Manor, 815 Sunset Road in Dallas, Texas.*



    It is not known how he occupied his time for the next week but as of November 18th, he was working at

    Texas Consumer Finance located at 1310 Commerce Street next to Jack Ruby's Carousel Club located at 1312 Commerce Street.* He quit his job on November 20th.*
    Vaganov stopped briefly in Georgia and Alabama

    Here is a famous picture showing what many think is Oswald at Ruby's club... seems to me he looks more like Igor here... given he "worked" next door and quits on the 20th...
    FWIW...



    Notice please this photo is taken at the intersection of 10th and Patton....


    SA TERENCE D DINAN reporting:
    At approximately 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963, VAGANOV came to the apartment, appeared very upset and told his wife that the President had been shot. They turned on the television, VAGANOV stayed about fifteen minutes and left, saying that he had to cash a check.* He returned approximately one hour later and stayed at the apartment until 3:30 or 4:00 PM, when he was interviewed by two FBI Agents.
    VAGANOV, at that time, had in his possession a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight and a Colt .33 Caliber Revolver. Immediately after the Agents departed, VAGANOV told his wife that he was returning to Pennsylvania and that he would be back November 25, 1963, to pick her up. He took with him the rifle and told his wife that he was going to dispose of it


    *Vaganov, in January 1967, was on probation from CA for passing bad checks


    #3
    William Whaley claims to have taken "Oswald" on his trip home... or at least TOWARDS his rooming house... yet Whaley is very specific about what this Oswald asks him, repeatedly

    "said he wanted to go to the 500 Blk of No. Beckley" on a route which takes him directly past his rooming house... yet when we look at this testimony - everyone is fine with Whaley saying NECHES... :


    But when I got pretty close to 500 block at Neches and North Beckley which is the 500 block, he said, "This will do fine," and I pulled over to the curb right there. He gave me a dollar bill, the trip was 95 cents. He gave me a dollar bill and didn't say anything, just got out and closed the door and walked around the front of the cab over to the other side of the street. Of course, traffic was moving through there and I put it in gear and moved on, that is the last I saw of him.

    Mr. BALL. When you parked your car you parked on what street?
    Mr. WHALEY. I wasn't parked, I was pulled to the curb on Neches and North Beckley.
    Mr. BALL. Neches, corner of Neches and North Beckley?
    Mr. WHALEY. Which is the 500 block.
    Mr. BALL. What direction was your car?
    Mr. WHALEY. South.

    Mr. BALL. Here is Neches right here.

    Mr. WHALEY. Let me see where Neches is, is that right? Yes, that is it.
    This is the intersection right there.
    Mr. BALL. We put an "X" there.
    Mr. WHALEY. That is where he got off.
    Mr. BALL. That is where you dropped your passenger, is that right?
    Mr. WHALEY. That is--as far as I can see that is Neches.
    Mr. BALL. That is Neches, that is Beckley.

    Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is right, because that is the 500 block of North Beckley.
    Mr. BALL. Now, we will mark the beginning of your trip on the large map as "Y", and where you dropped your passenger as an "X".
    Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
    Mr. BALL. "Y" is the corner of Lamar and Jackson, and "X" is the corner of Neches and Beckley



    CE371 - a small map of Dallas - is being used for Whaley to put his marks... Here is the pertinent section of that map...
    and the link...https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc....d=992&tab=page I cannot see any "X"'s on this map



    Whaley even brags about his knowledge of the street in Dallas... the 500 block of N Beckley is down by 7th & 8th streets... we will see how a number of things converge at 500 N Beckley

    Mr. WHALEY. You name an intersection in the city of Dallas and I will tell you what is on all four corners.
    Mr. BALL. Did you stop and let your passenger out on this run on the north or south side of the intersection?
    Mr. WHALEY. On the north side, sir.
    Mr. BALL. North side?
    Mr. WHALEY. Yes.
    Mr. BALL. That would be--
    Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner.
    Mr. BALL. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley?
    Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley.


    I am at a total loss for how BALL and the rest allow "NECHES" to be repeated and referred to over and over while it was completely incorrect... in his March 12, 1964 testimony


    There is no corner of "Beckley/Neches" but you can see the EAST end start of Neches from 1026 N Beckley. It's possible he could have meant NEELY... but even that is not at the 500 BLK of Beckley...

    Until he is called back to testify on April 8, 1964... this time the story changes entirely...

    it is now the 700 block of Beckley at NEELY... that Oswald said he wanted to get out of the cab... Luckily we have his handwritten affidavit.... from this 37 years of experience cab driver who knows all the intersections in Dallas
    which shows he said and meant to say the 500 block of N Beckley.

    How "Neches" gets into the equation is anybody's guess...







    #4
    Scoggins picked up a fare at LOVE Field and takes him to the same apartments Olsen and his wife-to-be-girlfriend (ex Ruby stripper Kay) lives, dropping him off around 1pm..

    Scoggins would then travel down 8th street to Patton and turn left driving past his Gentlemen's club, turning around and park facing north on the East side of Patton.

    500 N Beckley is 2 blocks over and 2 blocks up from 10th/Patton ... and appears to be a nexus related to the Tippit murder

    As I wrote earlier, this "CLUB" is directly across from the alley where the 2nd patrol car (WESTBROOK/CROY?) would have to enter and exit to have traveled up the driveway between 400 and 404 E 10th.

    David, I had a sister-in-law that was a court reporter. Used one of those 20some key machines like you can still see on Perry Mason reruns. She told me that she was called to testify in appeal cases, and that in every case what she thought she was transcribing WAS NOT what appeared in the official transcripts of the trial being appealed.

    She was VERY hesitant to place blame or cast judgement. She was only certain that mistakes were made somewhere down the line. And that they SURE AS HELL weren't her's.

    While I find the position you put forward quite compelling, I'm not so sure about any of the testimony, or the ACCURATE RECORDING of said testimony before the Warren Commission. The guy knew the streets of Dallas, Whaley I mean. Or so he claimed. From reading the above either he's a liar that changed his story, or just a fool.

    Was Whaley's testimony coerced like so many others? Or was this another example of incompetence by the WC? Or some of both?

  3. Default

    Hi Ray... thanks for the reply and question...

    Let's take a step back first...

    the claim is that he left the TSBD and walked EAST on Elm.



    Mr. BALL - Well then, do you remember picking up a passenger at a place other than at a bus stop as you went down Elm?
    Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
    As I left Field Street, I pulled out into the, in other words, the first lane of traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in other words, it was blocked further down the street, and after I pulled out in it for a short distance there I come to a complete stop, and when I did, someone come up and beat on the door of the bus, and that is about even with Griffin Street.


    Mr. BALL - Anyway, you were not able to identify any man in the lineup as the passenger?
    Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
    Mr. BALL - As the passenger who had gotten on?
    Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
    Mr. BALL - You said there was one man who closely resembled in height, weight and color?
    Mr. McWATTERS - That is right.
    Mr. BALL - Do you know who that was?
    Mr. McWATTERS - Just like I told them, I didn't know who was who or anything.
    Mr. BALL - Did you ever learn who that person was?
    Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I don't know whether that was really the man or not, I don't know.


    She said, "Would you give me a transfer and I am going to walk on down," which is about from where I was at that time about 7 or 8 blocks to Union Station and she asked me if I would give her a transfer in case I did get through the traffic if I would pick her up on the way.

    So, I said, "I sure will." So I gave her a transfer and opened the door and as she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about 2 blocks asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did.
    Mr. BALL - Where was that near, what intersection?
    Mr. McWATTERS - It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was near Poydras and Lamar Street. It is a short block, but the main intersection there is Lamar Street.



    Mr. BALL - Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning?
    Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus.
    Mr. BALL - That stayed on the bus?
    Mr. McWATTERS - That stayed on the bus.
    Mr. BALL - And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to whom you gave a transfer? Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.



    How does that jive with McWatters' Nov 22 affidavit? It doesn't... Griffin street is not "on Elm and Houston" but 6 blocks to the east.
    There is no mention of WHERE the man gets off the bus... and the WOMAN doesn't come into the picture until he's reached MARSALIS which is in Oak Cliff and well after anyone is on or off this bus...




    Or his April 3 recanting of his March 12 testimony?









    In the recaps of Oswald's interrogations (WCR Appendix 11) we get a similar statement from some of the most important people in the room... that Oswald said he took a bus either all the way home or all the way to the theater..




    It is not until much later than the "rewrite" is done to add that instead of staying on the bus, he takes a taxi for the first time in his domestic life... and once again, we will see that each of those at the interrogation mentions his going home, changing his clothes and leaving...

    How can BLEDSOE and WHALEY be describing what he wore to work when in fact they describe his arrest outfit AFTER he's changed... How would BLEDSOE know about missing buttons and a torn elbow if it had not happened yet?

    Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
    Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants. (DJ: ???)
    He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there.

    Mr. BALL - Now, what color shirt did he have on?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - He had a brown shirt.
    Mr. BALL - And unraveled?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Hole in his sleeve right here [indicating].
    Mr. BALL - Which is the elbow of the sleeve? That is, you pointed to the elbow?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, it is.
    Mr. BALL - And that would be which elbow, right or left elbow?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Right.
    Mr. BALL - Did he have anything on. Was the shirt open or was it buttoned?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; all the buttons torn off.





    Add to this McWatter's recanting that it was Oswald on his bus and I am comfortable saying Oswald did not get onto McWatters' bus... He may in fact have gotten into Mrs. Paine's (other?) Nash Rambler...


    IF... and I say If he got on this bus... the Marsalis bus... it would take him exactly where he was going... even all the way to Jefferson, if he did indeed USE THE TRANSFER as mentioned... it would tough to find it in his pocket later...no?





    As we discussed, Whaley changed his testimony about both NECHES and where he left his fare off... 700 N Beckley instead of 500...

    700 N Beckley leaves a minute walk to 214 Neely...
    500 N Beckley is where El Chico and TF White are.... when an Oswald who shouldn't have been seen, was.




    Whaley's trip starts off on an even weirder note... He says he turns LEFT onto Wood off Austin

    Then I turned left on Wood off Austin and went straight on down Wood to Houston which is the street which we call the old viaduct.

    Kinda strange.... is all...


    You add this to the bogus bus ride and the addition of a jacket he didn't wear and a location that didn't exist and it appears to me that this evidence falls into the "after the fact incrimination of Oswald"
    Last edited by David Josephs; 10-12-2018 at 05:18 PM.
    Once in a while you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  4. Default

    The little area called OAK CLIFF sure was a hotbed of activity those months in 1963...
    Johnny Brewer lived at 512 N Lancaster close to 321 N Ewing. Per Ian Griggs' 1996 interview he knew Kathy Kay & her daughters, also owned a 1964 Ford Galaxie, color unknown. Griggs does not mention Olsen in this context.
    https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc....eId=8&tab=page

    Attached is a 1962 area road map some may find useful. Much has since changed, but Neches was the same then as now.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Milo Reech; 10-12-2018 at 09:44 PM. Reason: added link

  5. Default

    Mr. Josephs,

    I am thankful for all the people like you who are willing to pour over the massive amount of documents released in search of the truth. Not just on this forum, but other places as well. I am merely a layman and no expert, but even Stevie Wonder or Ray Charles could see some of the ridiculous inconsistencies and conflicts with the recorded testimonies.

    Whaley's testimony seems unacceptable to me. Either coerced, or total BS that was fabricated. The reason I even brought my sister-in-law's experience up is because she herself was responsible for transcribing from her own notes what she recorded during trials. And she knew her transcriptions were either deliberately or mistakenly altered before they were entered into the official record. And this bothered her a great deal when she was later forced to testify and say what was in the official record was "not" what she remembered recording. (She never came right out and said to our family or in court that something "shady" was going on....but she knew that it was. She knew.)

    There have been so many people that said the FBI and Warren Commission DID NOT accurately record their statements, or flat-out changed their statements, or added things to their statements that they never said.....that I am just skeptical of virtually every single testimony taken in this case. Unless it served the purpose of backing up the desired scenario "they" wanted to promote, I don't give much credence to anything anybody supposedly said for the record.

    I've known guys like Whaley who drove cabs for most of their life.They not only knew every street like the back of their hand (especially in the commercial districts) they knew where to go to get whatever the customer desired, if you know what I mean. And really, Dallas wasn't that big of a city in 1963. It was a "small" big city back then. Guys like McWatters and Whaley knew their burg. So I don't believe a guy like Whaley could make the mistakes he supposedly did in his "so-called" testimony. I wish that independent researchers could've spoken with McWatters, and especially Whaley after the fact. Like in 1965 or so. But even then those guys might have been reluctant to set the record straight. Self-preservation is a highly motivating factor. As far as I'm concerned both of their versions of what happened was either altered, or coerced, and not worth a damn thing. Except maybe as testimonials to an inefficient cover-up/frame-up after the fact.

    That so many documents have been released that BEG for explanation vis-a-vis the official version of events is astounding. All your research on the whole "Oswald went to Mexico" fairy tale is a prime case in point. That the cover-up was hastily conceived and executed after the fact is obvious to anyone willing to see. We've been uncovering contradictory evidence in the US Govt's own files for decades. Had efficient preparations taken place before the coup all those files would have been purged before the deed was done. But nobody I know of has ever accused the Federal Govt. of being efficient. And I feel 99.9% of the Feds never knew that the hit on JFK was going to happen, anyway. That's why the cover-up has proven to be so sloppy and inefficient. It wouldn't have succeeded at all without that All-American attitude of CYA by many Federal Agencies.

    And that is why I put no confidence in the accuracy of anyone's "so-called" statements. Neither to the FBI, or before the Warren Commission, or even before the HSCA. We know for a fact that people perjured themselves as late as the 1970's, although I don't think their testimonies were altered or coerced for the record to any extent near as much in the 70s as they were in 63 and 64.

  6. Default

    thanks for the kind words Ray... greatly appreciated

    I'd like to throw in one thing for your consideration since you seem to actually look at the evidence discussed BEFORE commented (who'd a thunk, right... ? lol)

    In 1963, the relationship and mindset with law enforcement is, in today's concepts, impossible to represent.... impossible even for most to imagine.

    When the police took you "downtown, book 'em Dan-o" you were concerned and quite a bit scared... You did what they wanted...

    The DPD was a very intimidating place, let alone the homicide department...

    I believe that Whaley and Bledsoe and a host of others, were given "aids for remembering the correct things"... it is hard to conceive of a homicide case where every single item of evidence incriminates the defendant after the fact, while so little of that same evidence exited contemporaneously.

    Whaley and others who are to be seen as "liars" or full of "BS" were in most likelihood, doing what they were told would be their civic duty in catching a killer of a president....

    We know for a fact that people perjured themselves as late as the 1970's, although I don't think their testimonies were altered or coerced for the record to any extent near as much in the 70s as they were in 63 and 64.

    I'd have to tentatively agree since you are generously underestimating the BS which was coerced...

    One thing most are not aware of in this case.... the WC Commissioners had the right, the authority and power to simply and unilaterally CHANGE TESTIMONY... and to such a material extent as to hide the realities of the situation...

    The most famous of these is DULLES' "altering" of FBI SA Cadigan's testimony in the attempt to hide the fact that 1) more inventory came back from the FBI than was sent, and that the FBI had every item of critical evidence by the morning of the 23rd......only to return it the following week.... to only pick it up again ...


    How it appears in the report:

    Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know why Exhibit No. 820 was not reprocessed or desilvered?
    Mr. CADIGAN. No, this is a latent fingerprint matter.
    Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why the signature, "Lee Oswald" or rather "L. H. Oswald" is apparent, while the signature "A. J. Hidell" is not?
    Mr. CADIGAN. Different inks.





    How it initially WAS to appear... (there were so many witnesses who, after reading their sworn testimony, claimed there were changes, omissions, and additions....


    So many answered this important question the same way... the level of TRUST is completely impossible to convey in 2018 terms....

    Mr. BALL - Mrs. Bledsoe , this deposition will be written up by the reporter, and you can take it and look it over if you wish and change it in any way and sign it, or if you wish to waive the signature we will have it written up and send it to the Commission as it is.
    Do you have any preference that way? Do you want her to waive the signature?
    Miss DOUTHIT - I think she can waive it. I don't see any reason for her to sign it.
    Mr. BALL - Then can we, on the advice of your attorney, will you waive the signature? Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.

    Mr. BELIN - Now you have a right, if you want to, to come back and read the deposition and sign it, or you can just rely on the court reporter's accuracy and waive the signing of it. Do you want to waive it or not?
    Mr. BENAVIDES - I would like to read it.
    Mr. BELIN - All right.
    Mr. BENAVIDES - Maybe I could add something I didn't add.
    Mr. BELIN - All right, I will ask the court reporter to try and get in touch with you.

    Mr. BALL - Now, this will be reduced to writing, and you can sign it, look it over and sign it, or waive your signature if you wish. What do you wish?
    Mr. BOWERS - I have no reason to sign it unless you want me to.
    Mr. BALL - Would you just as leave waive the signature?
    Mr. BOWERS - Fine.


    Mr. BALL - All right; you waive signature?
    Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.


    Mr. BALL. Mrs. Postal, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission without your signature. Now, how do you feel about it? Do you want to do that?
    Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know. I mean, this is all new to me anyway.
    Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature?
    Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I see no reason why not.

    Mr. BALL. Okay. Fine.
    Then you don't have to come down and sign it. We will send it without your signature. Thank you, very much for coming in.
    Once in a while you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  7. Default

    Along the same lines the final phrase of Scoggins' statement, "After I had got in the car and toured the neighborhood and then the policemen came along and I left my cab setting down there and got in a car with them and left the scene," rings hollow. "Left the scene" is enforcement jargon. My guess is Scoggins stated exactly where the cops took him, and it certainly wasn't the cab company's office to file a statement with his boss.

    Perversely, on occasion there is craven acquiescence in a conclusion based on manufactured evidence, persisting long after exposure of the evidence's bogus nature, as if a platform will remain suspended in air after the scaffolding has fallen down. Point in case is the murder weapon. Evidence is strong it was an automatic, weak a revolver, but it's a commonplace that the killer ran through the Davis yard planting evidence against himself.

    There are also statements generally ignored that the killer ran along 10th to Patton and turned south at the corner, meaning nobody cut across the lawn and jumped through the shrubbery. This evidence was not so much altered as disregarded, superseded by the revised flight path to accommodate the spurious spent shells.
    Last edited by Milo Reech; 10-16-2018 at 02:35 PM.

  8. Default Radio logs

    The radio logs often provide an antidote to the lies & distortions countenanced by WC, no more striking an example than Hill's baldfaced lying to Belin about his statement, "The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol."

    Mr. BELIN. Now, also turning to Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I notice that there is another call on car No. 550-2. Was that you at that time, or not, at 1:40 p.m.?
    Would that have been someone else?
    Mr. HILL. That probably is R. D. Stringer.
    Mr. BELIN. That is not you, then, even though it has a number 550-2?
    Mr. HILL. Yes; because Stringer quite probably would have been using the same call number, because it is more his than it was mine, really, but I didn't have an assigned call number, so I was using a number I didn't think anybody would be using, which is call 550-2, instead of the Westbrook to Batchelor as it indicates here.

    Hill's radio log statement occurred after Summers reported a lengthy description of the "get-away man," culminating with "and was apparently armed with a .32, dark-finish, automatic pistol which he had in his right hand." Hill was aware of the caliber error and, after waiting out a series of messages about the fizzled library lead, weighed in with the correction. The second part of the correction concerning the "pistol" makes no sense, but this was not the reason he refused to acknowledge his statement. No amount of equivocation could undo the harm inflicted by the lethal "automatic 38," anathema to the WR script.

    Hill avoided the trap by attributing the statement to someone else, duping the willingly gullible Belin who succumbed immediately to the deception, consigning the "automatic 38" to lethe and collective amnesia.

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo Reech View Post
    The radio logs often provide an antidote to the lies & distortions countenanced by WC, no more striking an example than Hill's baldfaced lying to Belin about his statement, "The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol."

    Mr. BELIN. Now, also turning to Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I notice that there is another call on car No. 550-2. Was that you at that time, or not, at 1:40 p.m.?
    Would that have been someone else?
    Mr. HILL. That probably is R. D. Stringer.
    Mr. BELIN. That is not you, then, even though it has a number 550-2?
    Mr. HILL. Yes; because Stringer quite probably would have been using the same call number, because it is more his than it was mine, really, but I didn't have an assigned call number, so I was using a number I didn't think anybody would be using, which is call 550-2, instead of the Westbrook to Batchelor as it indicates here.

    Hill's radio log statement occurred after Summers reported a lengthy description of the "get-away man," culminating with "and was apparently armed with a .32, dark-finish, automatic pistol which he had in his right hand." Hill was aware of the caliber error and, after waiting out a series of messages about the fizzled library lead, weighed in with the correction. The second part of the correction concerning the "pistol" makes no sense, but this was not the reason he refused to acknowledge his statement. No amount of equivocation could undo the harm inflicted by the lethal "automatic 38," anathema to the WR script.

    Hill avoided the trap by attributing the statement to someone else, duping the willingly gullible Belin who succumbed immediately to the deception, consigning the "automatic 38" to lethe and collective amnesia.

    Ther are literally ZERO REPORTS offered by R.D. STRINGER... only H.H. related to the stop sign by the Tippit murder which was knocked over... yet no explanation is offered.

    16. CSS Form (Crime Scene Section), by H. H. Stringer. Original form concerning an investigation of a fallen stop sign near crime scene area, (Original), 11/22/63. 00002562 1 page 09 01 016 (no scan)

    So I found R. D. STRINGER in 1st Platoon under William Frazier.... http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazw.htm

    There is no way in HECK that a Patrolman would use the same call signal as a Sergeant or a Captain... even if they were using the same radio... Each person, including Patrolman Stringer, would have their own call number...

    This is from Reclaiming History:
    Nearby, Sergeant Richard D. Stringer contacts the channel 2 dispatcher.

    “Could you pass this to someone. The jacket the suspect was wearing over here on Jefferson in
    this shooting bears the laundry tag with the letter B 9738. See if there is a way you can check this
    laundry tag.” 545

    1:44 p.m. Except the DPD radio log shows:

    1:44 551 (Sergeant H.H. Stringer) The jacket the suspect was wearing over here on Jefferson bears a laundry tag with the letter B 9738. See if there is any way you can check this laundry tag.

    H H STRINGER is the Sergeant under WESTBROOK and was with him thru his amazing travels... We are truly never made privy to why Richard Stringer would be out at these locations given they are traffic cops...

    HH Was also at the Theater with WESTBROOK... there were a few traffic cops but again, no RD STRINGER.... and as we see below, his shift was from Midnight to 8am... he most likely went home after his shift and would not be called back in until his next one...

    There is also no report related to any activity from his Captain, Will Fraizer... Zip, nada, nothing.... as if he and his men were not involved at all... his testimony is focused on Nov 24 with nothing about the 22nd....

    He does mention this though: which seems to imply his platoon was not on between 8am and 4pm.

    Seems to me that Hill is once again caught in a big fat LIE.... with Bugliosi adding to the confusion with his awful book.

    Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty? Do you know?
    Mr. FRAZIER. At 11 p.m., on the 23d. I think that is what they call the first shift?
    Mr. HUBERT. First platoon. First platoon, rather, and that goes until roughly 7 in the morning?
    Mr. FRAZIER. Around 7; yes sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Had you been on duty the night before, that is, on first platoon. That would have been---
    Mr. FRAZIER. What day would it have been, sir?
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would have been the 23d.
    Mr. FRAZIER. I mean, what day of the week.
    Mr. HUBERT. Oh, the day before would, have been Saturday.
    Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was on duty at the time. That would have been the first platoon. Yes, sir; I was on duty at the time.




    Once in a while you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  10. Default Radio logs part 2

    Also at 1:44 on channel two Hill announced an intention to shake down the Abundant Life Temple. The same activity had been announced by McDonald on channel one ten minutes earlier, another example of Hill co-opting a subject reported by someone else. McDonald was responding to information supplied by Pollard a minute earlier, "They say he's running west in the alley between Jefferson and Tenth," but the outcome of this shake down is unknown.

    Hill's WC testimony about his movements is worthless. He conspicuously omits the stop at 12th & Beckley with "a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect," reported at 1:26, rattling off nonsense in its place. Witness statements are easy to manipulate, radio logs much more difficult, and Hill sought to pre-empt discussion of undesirable subject matter by (in 21st century terms) spamming the threads, with eventual burial.

    Incidentally, Sergeant Owens' WC testimony solves the mystery of who took Tippit's service revolver to Methodist. He did:

    Mr. OWENS. I arrived at Elm and Houston, which is the location of the Texas School Book Depository. Before I arrived, the squad was dispatched to pick up a man--an officer on Stemmons, who had a colored man, who had information regarding the shooting. Since I was close, I stopped and picked up a colored man, a lady and two children, and take them to Elm and Houston, and notified Inspector Sawyer of what I had. He informed me to send them to the sheriff's office where they had set up this interrogation room. I turned them over to a patrolman there with the instructions to take them over to the sheriff's office. I stayed with Inspector Sawyer until I was informed that there was a shooting in Oak Cliff involving a police officer.
    Mr. ELY. Do you recall the name of this colored man?
    Mr. OWENS. No. I told Inspector Sawyer that I was assigned to Oak Cliff and an officer was involved in the shooting, and I was taking off, so I proceeded--I got in my car, and Captain Westbrook and Bill Alexander, an assistant district attorney, also was in the car with me and we started out to--I think the call came out at 400 East 10th or 400 East Jefferson. There was confusion there where the situation was. It was corrected and we went to the scene of the shooting.
    Now, right there--here's where I'm not quite sure--I don't know whether I was given the gun and all--but I believe I was given the gun and this was Tippit's gun and shells.
    Mr. ELY. Do you recall who gave them to you?
    Mr. OWENS. No; some officer, but I don't know who it was.
    Mr. ELY. And how long did you have the gun and shells in your custody?
    Mr. OWENS. Well, I had them at the hospital and we put them in a paper envelope, a large paper envelope with some more of his possessions.
    Mr. ELY. Did you make any identifying marks on them?
    Mr. OWENS. No; they were his city issued--his own gun.
    Mr. ELY. And do you recall whom you gave them to eventually?
    Mr. OWENS. No; I believe it was Barton [Bardin?] --I'm not sure. I couldn't say positively who I gave them to, to go put them in the property room. In fact, I don't even know whether I gave them to anybody. I might have taken them out to the Oak Cliff substation and put them in our property room--I don't know.
    Last edited by Milo Reech; 11-09-2018 at 04:25 PM.

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