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Thread: Vincent Bugliosi, Tom O'Neill, Tate/LaBianca and Quentin Tarantino

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  1. Default Vincent Bugliosi, Tom O'Neill, Tate/LaBianca and Quentin Tarantino

    This one takes in a lot of space--I mean a lot. And i did it in less than 20 pages.

    And it includes copious references to the JFK case since O'Neill decided to go there--wrongly.

    https://kennedysandking.com/reviews/...abianca-part-1

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    "Dorgan was a member of the Straight Satans."

    I think the general view of most TLB (Tate/LaBianca) researchers is that Dorgan was not a Satan.


    "Rostau was found dead, his body stuffed in the trunk of his car at LAX"

    It was at JFK in NY, not LA.

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    Thanks for the airport correction.

    I really don't want to get into the issue of the TLB forums. One of the problems with them, as compared to JFK, is that the case file on TLB has not been declassified to any great extent. O'Neill just got bits and pieces of it from insiders who did not like Bugliosi.

  4. Default Reeve Whitson

    For me, the most interesting new information in O'Neill's book is contained in the chapter on Reeve Whitson. According to O'Neill's sources, Whitson was a CIA counterinsurgency specialist posing as a hippie who

    - did some sort of surveillance of the house at Cielo Drive
    - knew Polanski and his circle well
    - appears to have been at the crime scene before the murders were discovered (which gives weight to the rumour that Manson and an unidentified man visited the house after the massacre had taken place which seems unlikely but would help to explain some inconsistencies of the crime scene)
    - was very much involved in the investigation and cooperated in this as an "amateur sleuth" with Bugliosi as well as with Sharon Tate's father
    - was a friend of Curtis Le May and at least an acquaintance of Otto Skorzeny and his wife

    I very much suspect Whitson to have been an agent of Operation CHAOS -- just like Oswald Le Winter, who became involved in the Manson case later, and Ronald Stark of the Brotherhood of Eternal Love. For Le Winter, see: https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums...8257#post58257

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    Jim have you read any of Nikolas Schreck's stuff on Manson? I've just been listening to ST Patrick'ss interviews with him on Midnight Writer News. Apparently he developed quite a relationship with Manson and has a lot of the same criticisms of the Bugliosi Helter Skelter story as you do. I was a little turned off when he alleged JFK -Mob connections through Joe Kennedy and the Rat Pack and claimed that Jay Sebring supplied to drugs to JFK for his trysts with Marilyn Monroe and used to play FBI-recorded tapes of those events at parties (nor sure what his supporting evidence is for that stuff) but his stuff on Manson and the TLB murders seems to be quite good.

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    Yes I read the Schreck book a long time ago.

    None of that stuff you mention was in that edition. I will have to advise him against using this stuff in the new edition.

    Thanks for telling me.

    The Whitson stuff was interesting, but even Tom admits that it might be just a red herring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DiEugenio View Post
    This one takes in a lot of space--I mean a lot. And i did it in less than 20 pages.

    And it includes copious references to the JFK case since O'Neill decided to go there--wrongly.

    https://kennedysandking.com/reviews/...abianca-part-1

    Over the years I have appreciated and admired Jim DiEugenio’s articles and book reviews on the JFK, RFK, and MLK assassinations. However, when I read his review of Tom O’Neill’s Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties, I saw that it fell short in helping the reader get a better understanding of what the Tate LaBianca murders were all about.

    Both the author of the book and the book reviewer dismiss the Helter Skelter scenario, which has the Manson family hunkering down in the desert while an apocalyptic race war raged in the cities, a race war that they themselves initiated with the Tate LaBianca murders, with the blame going to Black Muslims and Black Panthers. DiEugenio does not state his reasons for rejecting Helter Skelter. Perhaps he thinks the idea is too fantastic to contemplate seriously.

    After setting aside the Helter Skelter motive, DiEugenio goes on to state that the actual motive was drug dealing. Drugs were behind the death of Gary Hinman. Supposedly Hinman sold a bad batch to Manson’s buddy Bobby Beausoleil. Another motive that DiEugenio favors is one set forth in Stimson’s book Goodbye Helter Skelter, which is the copycat murder scenario. The Tate LaBianca murders were a ploy aimed at weakening the case against Beausoleil and hopefully getting him out of jail.

    A second motive behind the Tate murders, DiEugenio believes, is drugs. Tate and Polanski knew three Canadian drug dealers. Drugs were found in the house. A mob connected drug-supplier Joe Rostau had dropped off some drugs the day of the murders. If supplying bad drugs was the motive for killing Hinman, I don’t understand why Tate and Polanski, who were mere consumers of drugs and not suppliers, should be targeted for death. Perhaps DiEugenio can elucidate.

    Ultimately, DiEugenio’s argument for the drug motive or the copycat ploy to get Beausoliel out if jail is unconvincing. The shocking and gratuitous brutality of the murders seem to go far beyond the motives DiEugenio attributes to them. The sensational aspects of the crimes seem more calculated toward grabbing headlines and instilling terror among the millions of ordinary people living in Los Angeles rather than toward punishing a few miscreants in the drug trade or getting a buddy out of jail.

    A better explanation is given in O’Neill’s book, which suggests that the murders stemmed from a CIA and military intelligence plot to incite terror and discredit the left. Manson was a mere cutout to hide the originators of the plot. Not mentioned in DiEugenio’s review but mentioned by Ralf Anders on this forum was Reeve Whitson, who was a CIA counterinsurgency specialist posing as a hippie and featured in O’Neill’s book. This aspect goes far in supporting O’Neill’s thesis. Mae Brussell said on her October 13, 1971 radio program that Ed Butler wrote an article “Did Hate Kill Tate?” in which he argued that Black Panthers committed the murders. The Panthers, he said, were tied into the communists. Butler was, according to Brussell, “an agent provocateur who worked with Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans.” Terror would be incited among the middle class who feared black people would invade their homes to murder them.

    Like DiEugenio, O’Neill also rejects the Helter Skelter scenario. Yet there are grounds for seriously considering it.

    The idea of a black white race war was not unique to Manson. George Lincoln Rockwell of the American Nazi Party predicted a great race war, where "the uniform would be skin color." When he was murdered in 1967, he was followed by William Pierce who wrote the Turner Diaries, a novel which depicted a violent race war leading to the systematic extermination of non-whites. This book has served as a guide and inspiration for white supremacists such as Timothy McVeigh since its publication in 1977.

    Charles Manson was a white supremacist who hated blacks and Jews. He adored Adolf Hitler, and collected National Geographic magazines that featured the Third Reich. Several members of his Family were connected with the Aryan Brotherhood. “Charles Manson was one of the most virulent racists that ever walked the planet,” according to Jeff Guinn, author of Manson: The Life and Times of Charles Manson.

    According to Ed Sanders in his book The Family, he was associated with the Process Church, an English sect based in London, which hated blacks. Manson carved an inverted swastika on his forehead, symbol of the Process Church. He was also associated with Solar Lodge of the OTO headed by Georgina Brayton. She believed in the imminent occurrence of a cataclysmic race war that would wipe out the blacks. In expectation of this event, in April 1969 she gathered her flock into a compound of Quonset huts in the desert town of Blythe.

    Ed Sanders found two witnesses, whom he only identified by the first names Jay and Dave. These two both said that women who spoke with an English accent (probably from the Process) were at the scene when Hinman was murdered and orchestrated the false clues leading to the Black Panthers such as the bloody paw print on the wall and the words “Political Piggy” in blood.

    Tex told fellow jail-mate Chet Starkey that the Tate-LaBianca murders were "a test for something bigger than ripping off a few people. That's when he [Manson] told me of the plan to choose three large cities on the West Coast and subject them to a massive plot, a plot to frighten and terrorize their entire populations, to literally scare the people out of their wits."

    The prospect of a racial civil war provoked by a series of ever more horrendous crimes was not some horrible fantasy dreamed up by Manson. According to General William P. Yarborough, Army Asst. Chief of Staff of Intelligence, because of the political power that characterized the Black Panthers and anti-war radical hippies, America was very close to civil war in the 1960s, and the military had made extensive preparations for it. Yarborough’s statement lends credence to the idea of a military preparation for a race war.

    Fantastic as it may seem, Helter Skelter was a genuine hope in Manson's twisted mind and served as the inspiration for the Family’s murderous rampage.

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by William Weston View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DiEugenio View Post
    This one takes in a lot of space--I mean a lot. And i did it in less than 20 pages.

    And it includes copious references to the JFK case since O'Neill decided to go there--wrongly.

    https://kennedysandking.com/reviews/...abianca-part-1

    Over the years I have appreciated and admired Jim DiEugenio’s articles and book reviews on the JFK, RFK, and MLK assassinations. However, when I read his review of Tom O’Neill’s Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties, I saw that it fell short in helping the reader get a better understanding of what the Tate LaBianca murders were all about.

    Both the author of the book and the book reviewer dismiss the Helter Skelter scenario, which has the Manson family hunkering down in the desert while an apocalyptic race war raged in the cities, a race war that they themselves initiated with the Tate LaBianca murders, with the blame going to Black Muslims and Black Panthers. DiEugenio does not state his reasons for rejecting Helter Skelter. Perhaps he thinks the idea is too fantastic to contemplate seriously.

    After setting aside the Helter Skelter motive, DiEugenio goes on to state that the actual motive was drug dealing. Drugs were behind the death of Gary Hinman. Supposedly Hinman sold a bad batch to Manson’s buddy Bobby Beausoleil. Another motive that DiEugenio favors is one set forth in Stimson’s book Goodbye Helter Skelter, which is the copycat murder scenario. The Tate LaBianca murders were a ploy aimed at weakening the case against Beausoleil and hopefully getting him out of jail.

    A second motive behind the Tate murders, DiEugenio believes, is drugs. Tate and Polanski knew three Canadian drug dealers. Drugs were found in the house. A mob connected drug-supplier Joe Rostau had dropped off some drugs the day of the murders. If supplying bad drugs was the motive for killing Hinman, I don’t understand why Tate and Polanski, who were mere consumers of drugs and not suppliers, should be targeted for death. Perhaps DiEugenio can elucidate.

    Ultimately, DiEugenio’s argument for the drug motive or the copycat ploy to get Beausoliel out if jail is unconvincing. The shocking and gratuitous brutality of the murders seem to go far beyond the motives DiEugenio attributes to them. The sensational aspects of the crimes seem more calculated toward grabbing headlines and instilling terror among the millions of ordinary people living in Los Angeles rather than toward punishing a few miscreants in the drug trade or getting a buddy out of jail.

    A better explanation is given in O’Neill’s book, which suggests that the murders stemmed from a CIA and military intelligence plot to incite terror and discredit the left. Manson was a mere cutout to hide the originators of the plot. Not mentioned in DiEugenio’s review but mentioned by Ralf Anders on this forum was Reeve Whitson, who was a CIA counterinsurgency specialist posing as a hippie and featured in O’Neill’s book. This aspect goes far in supporting O’Neill’s thesis. Mae Brussell said on her October 13, 1971 radio program that Ed Butler wrote an article “Did Hate Kill Tate?” in which he argued that Black Panthers committed the murders. The Panthers, he said, were tied into the communists. Butler was, according to Brussell, “an agent provocateur who worked with Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans.” Terror would be incited among the middle class who feared black people would invade their homes to murder them.

    Like DiEugenio, O’Neill also rejects the Helter Skelter scenario. Yet there are grounds for seriously considering it.

    The idea of a black white race war was not unique to Manson. George Lincoln Rockwell of the American Nazi Party predicted a great race war, where "the uniform would be skin color." When he was murdered in 1967, he was followed by William Pierce who wrote the Turner Diaries, a novel which depicted a violent race war leading to the systematic extermination of non-whites. This book has served as a guide and inspiration for white supremacists such as Timothy McVeigh since its publication in 1977.

    Charles Manson was a white supremacist who hated blacks and Jews. He adored Adolf Hitler, and collected National Geographic magazines that featured the Third Reich. Several members of his Family were connected with the Aryan Brotherhood. “Charles Manson was one of the most virulent racists that ever walked the planet,” according to Jeff Guinn, author of Manson: The Life and Times of Charles Manson.

    According to Ed Sanders in his book The Family, he was associated with the Process Church, an English sect based in London, which hated blacks. Manson carved an inverted swastika on his forehead, symbol of the Process Church. He was also associated with Solar Lodge of the OTO headed by Georgina Brayton. She believed in the imminent occurrence of a cataclysmic race war that would wipe out the blacks. In expectation of this event, in April 1969 she gathered her flock into a compound of Quonset huts in the desert town of Blythe.

    Ed Sanders found two witnesses, whom he only identified by the first names Jay and Dave. These two both said that women who spoke with an English accent (probably from the Process) were at the scene when Hinman was murdered and orchestrated the false clues leading to the Black Panthers such as the bloody paw print on the wall and the words “Political Piggy” in blood.

    Tex told fellow jail-mate Chet Starkey that the Tate-LaBianca murders were "a test for something bigger than ripping off a few people. That's when he [Manson] told me of the plan to choose three large cities on the West Coast and subject them to a massive plot, a plot to frighten and terrorize their entire populations, to literally scare the people out of their wits."

    The prospect of a racial civil war provoked by a series of ever more horrendous crimes was not some horrible fantasy dreamed up by Manson. According to General William P. Yarborough, Army Asst. Chief of Staff of Intelligence, because of the political power that characterized the Black Panthers and anti-war radical hippies, America was very close to civil war in the 1960s, and the military had made extensive preparations for it. Yarborough’s statement lends credence to the idea of a military preparation for a race war.

    Fantastic as it may seem, Helter Skelter was a genuine hope in Manson's twisted mind and served as the inspiration for the Family’s murderous rampage.
    Although Jim's assessment of all this is rather mundane, your take is more..... romantic, as far as killers go. Ever read 'Then It All Came Down", Truman Capote's interview with Bobby Beausoleil in San Quentin, 1973? After telling Bobby that he knew Sirhan, Oswald, RFK & JFK, as well as knowing four out of the five Cielo Drive victims, Bobby Beausoleil responded, "You know what I'd say? I'd say you're not such a lucky guy to know".

  9. Default

    [QUOTE=Mark A. O'Blazney;125980][QUOTE=William Weston;125979]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DiEugenio View Post


    Although Jim's assessment of all this is rather mundane, your take is more..... romantic, as far as killers go. Ever read 'Then It All Came Down", Truman Capote's interview with Bobby Beausoleil in San Quentin, 1973? After telling Bobby that he knew Sirhan, Oswald, RFK & JFK, as well as knowing four out of the five Cielo Drive victims, Bobby Beausoleil responded, "You know what I'd say? I'd say you're not such a lucky guy to know".
    Interesting! I have to read that interview now that you mention it. I have a great deal of respect for Truman Capote. If he said he knew all those people, I believe it. The interview is at the following link, in case anyone else is interested in reading it.

    https://capote.wordpress.com/2011/05...-quentin-1973/

  10. Default

    [QUOTE=William Weston;125981][QUOTE=Mark A. O'Blazney;125980]
    Quote Originally Posted by William Weston View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DiEugenio View Post


    Although Jim's assessment of all this is rather mundane, your take is more..... romantic, as far as killers go. Ever read 'Then It All Came Down", Truman Capote's interview with Bobby Beausoleil in San Quentin, 1973? After telling Bobby that he knew Sirhan, Oswald, RFK & JFK, as well as knowing four out of the five Cielo Drive victims, Bobby Beausoleil responded, "You know what I'd say? I'd say you're not such a lucky guy to know".
    Interesting! I have to read that interview now that you mention it. I have a great deal of respect for Truman Capote. If he said he knew all those people, I believe it. The interview is at the following link, in case anyone else is interested in reading it.

    https://capote.wordpress.com/2011/05...-quentin-1973/
    Hey, as long as we're gossiping with each other........ don't forget the infamous 'La Cote Basque, 1965' piece in Esquire from 1975. Oh, Lordy !!!

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