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Thread: Armstrong: Of Covert Ops, Fake Marines, of Classifieds, of Cabbages and Kings

  1. #21

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    Creating The Illusion That Oswald Purchased A
    Rifle From Klein's


    Six days after announcing that Oswald paid $12.78 for the rifle, *the
    FBI changed their story* and said that he paid $19.95 for the rifle
    with the scope already attached (plus $1.50 for postage).

    NOTE: **The author does not know why the FBI changed their story. It
    may have been because Klein's bank records did not show a deposit that
    matched that amount.

    In order to create the illusion that Oswald paid $21.45 for the mail
    order rifle from Klein's, the FBI had to "locate" a corresponding
    deposit in Klein's account at the First National Bank of Chicago. The
    deposit had to be untraceable, which meant that it was made in cash or
    with a US postal money order. *The deposit could not be in the form
    of a personal check, or money order issued by a private company such
    as a bank , Cooks, or American Express.*

    According to FBI reports, Bureau agents began tracking the $21.45
    money order at 9:00 am on the morning of November 23, *even though
    they announced a few hours later that Oswald paid $12.78 for the
    rifle*. They ALLEGEDLY spoke with William Waldman, of Klein's
    Sporting Goods, then ALLEGEDLY spoke with Lester Gohr, the Assistant
    Cashier of the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago. *These agents may
    have interviewed these witnesses, but the information contained in
    their reports suggests that they did not.*

    At 9:00 am FBI agents Gale Johnson, James Hanlon, and Phillip Wanerus
    ALLEGEDLY interviewd Klein's vice-president William Waldman, who
    ALLEDGEDLY told the agents that Klein's records showed that a money
    order in the amount of $21.45 was deposited to the Klein's account at
    the First National Bank of Chicago on March 15, 1963. *It is doubtful
    that Waldman gave this information to these agents, because he had not
    seen an order from "A. Hidell" on the Klein's microfilm. He did not
    know **the price paid for the rifle or the method of payment**. In
    addition, Waldman had already given Klein's microfilm to agents Dolan,
    Toedt, and Mahan earlier that morning.*

    After ALLEDGELY interviewing William Waldman agents Johnson, Hanlon,
    and Wanerus ALLEDGELY interviewed Robert Wilmouth, Vice-President of
    the First National Bank of Chicago *(on Sunday morning)*. According
    to their FBI report, Wilmouth said that Klein's made a deposit in the
    amount of $13,827.98 on Friday, March 15, 1963. This deposit
    contained hundreds of entries on 5 pages of adding machine tape, with
    *two entries* in the amount of $21.45 (the FBI report was wrong; there
    was only *one entry for $21.45* in he $13,827 deposit). Wilmouth
    ALLEDGELY told the agents that one of the entries represented an
    American Express money order and the second deposit item represented a
    postal money order, both in the amount of $21.45. *But how would
    Wilmouth know if these deposits were made with money orders when
    looking at numbers on adding machine tapes? (see Vol 21, p. 706).

    Wilmouth, ALLEDGELY told the agents that both deposits were made on
    March 15, were processed by his bank on March 16 (Saturday), and were
    received by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago on March 18, 1963.
    *But the date on the deposit slip reads "2/13/63-a month before the
    rifle was ordered (p. 706, Volume 21).* *And how could Wilmouth
    possibly know the date that a money order was deposited at the Federal
    Reserve Bank without looking at the cancelled money order, which he
    did not have??* Wilmouth ALLEDEDLY told the agents, "Postal money
    orders are sent to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, which in turn
    sends them to a central processing center located in KANSAS CITY,
    MISSOURI.

    NOTE: **If neither the First National Bank nor the Federal Reserve
    Board had copies of a $21.45 money order (No. 2,202,130,462), then
    Wilmouth could not possibly have known the date the money order was
    received by the Federal Reserve.**

    After ALLEDGELY interviewing Robert Wilmouth agents Johnson, Hanlon,
    and Wanerus ALLEDGELY interviewed Lester Gohr, the Assistant Cashier
    of the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago-*on Saturday morning*.
    According to the FBI report, Gohr said that records of postal money
    orders were only kept for 6 months and that *he had no records prior
    to May 29, 1963.*

    From the information ALLEDGELY obtained from these bankers, we realize
    that if they were interviewd on Saturday morning it is highly unlikely
    they furnished the information that appears in the FBI reports.
    *Also, if they had furnished information about a $21.45 money order to
    FBI agents on Saturday morning, then the Bureau would never have
    announced that Oswald paid $12.78 for the mail order rifle a few hours
    later!* It is far more likely that these FBI reports were fabricated
    in order to create the illusion that a $21.45 postal money order was
    received by Klein's, deposited to their bank account and then sent to
    the Federal Reserve.

    We have already learned the $21.45 money order published in the Warren
    Volumes was **never deposited into a bank or financial institution.**
    *This means the mony order was not deposited to Klein's account at the
    First National Bank of Chicago, nor deposited with the Federal Reserve
    Bank, nor then returned to the Federal Records Center in Alexandria,
    VA. It also means that the information contained in the FBI reports
    of Johnson, Hanlon, and Wanerus was fabricated in order to create the
    illusion that Oswald purchased a $21.45 money order which was
    routinely processed through the federal banking system.

    The "Official Story" of how the $21.45 money order was found.

    At 1:45 pm on Saturday, November 23 Secret Service agent Edward Z.
    Tucker arrived at Klein's Sporting Goods and began interviewing
    William Waldman. At first Waldman was reluctant to speak with Agent
    Tucker, *because he had been told by the FBI agents not to discuss the
    investigation with anyone.* He alledgely told Tucker the price of
    Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was $21.45, including postage, and payment
    may have been made with a money order. Tucker spoke with Secret
    Service agent Griffith, who then called Chicago Postal Inspector Glenn
    Knight and requested help in locating a postal money order in the
    amount of $21.45.

    One of the FBI agents who reviewed the Klein's microfilm, John Toedt,
    ALLEDGELY contracted the Post Office in Chicago and also asked for
    their assistance in locating a postal money order. Toedt was told to
    contract the division headquarters in KANSAS CITY.

    After receiving a call from the SS, Chicago Postal Inspector Martin J.
    McGee ALLEDGELY telephoned Dallas Postal Inspector Cox, who in turn
    contacted Harry Holmes, who stated he thought *he (Holmes) would be
    able to find a record of a $21.45 money order in Dallas.*

    NOTE: **Most of the background information relating to the $21.45
    money order that is found in the reports of the US Post Office
    originated with Harry Holmes and, therefore, should be considered
    extremely suspect.**

    Holmes told the WC, "I passed the information to the men (Dallas
    postal employees) who were looking for this money order 'STUB' to show
    which would designate, which would show the number of the money order,
    and that is the onley way you could find one...within 10 minutes they
    called back and said they had a money order in that amount issued on,
    I don't know that I show, but it was that money order in an amount
    issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this post
    office box was at the time, box 2915, and the money order had been
    issued **early on the morning of March 12th**, 1963.

    NOTE: ** US post offices always kept the end "stub" of all money
    orders sold to customers for their records. ***But neither Holmes nor
    anyone else produced the "stub" or any postal records to support his
    claim that Dallas postal employees in Dallas located the "stub" for
    postal money order No. 2,202,130,462.***

    **Holmes told the WC the money order was issued ***early on the
    morning of March 12th.***, 1963. Yet there is nothing on a postal
    mony order that shows the time of day it was sold. The Commission
    should have asked Holmes how he knew the money order was issued
    "**early on the morning of March 12, 1963.***"

    **The only indication the money order was purchased on the morning of
    March 12 was the postmark show on the microfilm copy of the envelop
    ALLEDGELY mailed to Klein's which read, "10:30 am." The Kleins'
    microfilm was never shown to Holmes and therefore Holmes could not
    have known that a postal money order was issued ***early on the
    morning of March 12, 1963***. The only way Holmes could have known
    about the postmark would be if he had previously seen, or handled, the
    envelope, or if had been told to say that.**

    At 3:30 pm (November 23) Harry Holmes contacted Inspector Lloyd H.
    Stephens in Fort Worth and told him that postal money order No.
    2,202,130,462, in the amount of $21.45, had been used to pay for the
    rifle. Stephens then contacted Inspector Duggan in Washington, DC and
    game him the same information.

    Postal inspectors at the Federal Postal Money Order in Kansas City
    began searching for money order No. 2, 202,130,462, while a Postmaster
    General Staff meeting was held in Washington DC. A summary of the
    meeting prepared by the SS stated, "The initial request for the
    identification and location of the subject US Postal Money order had
    come from Postal Inspector Lloyd Stephens, Fort Worth, Texas.....as a
    result of a conference between Mr. Donald Duggan, Deputy Chief, Postal
    Inspection Service, Washington DC, and Postal Inspection Service at
    Fort Worth, Texas, **the original US Postal Money Order would be
    furnished to this service (Secret Service).**

    At 7:30 pm (CST) Chicago Postal Inspector Glenn Knight advised Secrect
    Service Agent Griffith that Postal Inspectors were attempting to
    locate the postal money order in Kansas City. **Postal inspectors in
    Kansas City had already spent 4 hours looking for postal money order
    No. 2,202,130,462, without success.**

    The Federal Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City was the same
    facility at which 5 other postal money orders were located that had
    been purchased by Oswald and used to repay his $435.71 loan from the
    Department of State. FBI SA Donald E. Stangel obtained the following
    information from the Department of State and the USPS.

    He shows a chart with categories Ser # or M.O.; Amount; Issue Date;
    Location; and Rec'd by State Dept

    The first 5 postal money orders (beginning with series 1,156,417,562)
    purchaed by Oswald in Fort Worth and Dallas were returned to the
    Federal Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City. The last 3 postal
    money ordrs (series 2,202,000,060) were returned to the Federal
    Records Center in Alexander, VA. Money order No. 2,202,130.462,
    ALLEDGELY purchased by Oswald from the GPO in Dallas, was ALLEDGELY
    located at the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, VA on the evening
    of November 23, 1963.

    According to the serial numbers on these money orders, the GPO in
    Dallas sold approxiamtely 1200 money orders per week (3888 from
    November 14, 1962-December 6, 1962; 3475 from Jan. 5, 1963-Jan. 25,
    1963). Using 1200 money orders per week as a guide, the serial number
    of the money order ALLEDGELY purchased by Oswald on Mar. 12, 1963, was
    2,202,130,462 (***118,527 numbers higher***). This serial number
    indicates that this money order came from a stack of money orders that
    should not have been sold by the GPO in Dallas until late 1964 or
    early 1965, if sold in numerical order.

    NOTE: **The Commission failed to ask the Postal Service when money
    orders beginning with 2,202,130 were sent to the Dallas GPO. They
    also failed to ask Holmes for the name of the postal employee who
    allededly found the "stub" for the $21.45 money order.** While Postal
    Inspectors continued to search for the $21.45 money order in Kansas
    City, Dallas Postal Inspector/FBI Informatn Harry Holmes advised the
    money ordr could be found in Washington DC. Holmes told the
    Commission, "This number (2,202,130,462) was transmitted to the Chief
    Inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at
    Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out
    this money order and sent it oer, ***so they said***, by special
    conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of the Secret Service at
    Washington now, and it turned out, ***so they said***, to be the
    correct money order. **Holmes was the first and only person in Dallas
    to know the number of the money order, and the first to suggest the
    money order could be located in Washington, DC.**

    NOTE: **The WC could not understand why it took nearly ***16 hours***
    to locate the money order. Harry Holmes said the delay was caused
    because the FBI provided him with incorrect information. Holmes said
    the Bureau advised him the amount of the money order was $21.95
    instead of $21.45, which caused him to look for a different money
    order, ***but not a single person corroborated Holmes' story.***

    In Washington, DC, the Deputy Chief of the Postal Inspection Service,
    Donald D. Duggan, insturcted Postal Finance Officer ***J. Harold
    Marks*** to indicate a search for the money order in Washington, DC,
    at 6:30 PM (CST).

    At 7:55 PM (CST), Chicago Secret Service Agent Griffith was told that
    postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 had been located in Washington,
    DC (8:55 EST). Griffith then telephoned agent Mroz, in Kansas City,
    and advised him the $21.45 postal money order had been recovered in
    Washington.

    NOTE: **Apparently the Dallas FBI office was not aware the money
    order had been located. At 9:30 PM (CST) the Dallas office sent an
    airtel to the Director and SAC's in Chicago and New York. The message
    said, "Advised inst. money order culd not be located today, but would
    be located *Nov. twenty four next."*

    Postal money order No. 2,202,190,462 was ALLEDGELY found at the
    Federal Records Center in Alexandria, VA by Robert Jackson, *an
    employee of the National Archives.*

    NOTE: **This $21.45 money order was never deposited into a financial
    institution and therefore could not have been routed through the
    banking system and returned to the Federal Records Center in
    Alexandria, VA. This money order was probably obtained from the GPO
    in Dallas in the early afternoon of November 23, hand-delivered to
    Washington, DC, and "planted" at the Federal Records Center in the
    early evening.**

    **It remains unknown whether Robert Jackson "found" the money order at
    the Federal Records Center or it was given to him. There were no
    witnesses present and neither Jackson, Marks, Parker, nor anyone from
    the National Archives and Records Service were interviewed by the FBI,
    Secret Service, or Warren Commission.**

    Robert Jackson hand-delivered the $21.45 money order to the home of
    **J. Harold Marks** in Washington, DC, who had been told to locate the
    money order by Deputy Chief Donald D. Duggan. A summary report
    prepared by Secret Service Agent Donald E. Burke on November 26, 1963
    provided the details of how the money order was given to the Secret
    Service:

    "At 10:10 PM (EST-9:10 CST) November 23 1963 SA Parker obtained the
    original US Postal Money Order from Mr. Harold Marks at Mr. Marks's
    home. At that time Jackson was identified as Robert H. Jackson, 2121
    Lee Wood Drive, Alexandria, Virginia, telephone, SO 5-7501, and
    employee of the National Archives and Records Service....He informed
    SA Parker that he obtained subject original postal money order and
    surrendered it to Mr. Marks. Both Jackson and Marks initialed and
    dated the original money order, after which it was surrendered to SA
    Parker, who in turn initialed and dated the money order.

    On the evening of November 23, 1963 the $21.45 postal money order was
    initialed and dated by Robert H. Jackson (RHJ), J. Harold Marks (JHM),
    and John E. Parker (JEP). A summary report by the SS explained how
    copies of the money order were sent to the Dallas office:

    "SA Phillips (Secret Service, Dallas) advised, after consultation with
    Inspector Kelley of this service, that two photstats be made of
    subject postal money order and that these photostates be placed on
    Flight #107, Braniff Airlines, departing Washington, DC, at (9:00 am
    on November 24, 1963, and arriving at Dallas, Texas at 11:50 A.M.

    SA Parker made five photostats of subject US Postal Money Order and
    placed them in an envelope. SA Parker surrendered the envelop to
    Captain Davis of Flight #107, Braniff Airlines, departing National
    Airport, Washington, DC, at 9 AM on November 24, 1963, for delivery to
    Special Agent in Charge, US Secret Service at Dallas.

    The secret service provided the Dallas Police with a copy of the money
    order, which was published among their exhibits in the Warren Volumes,
    CE 2003 (DPD file). The Secret Service summary report explained what
    happened to the ***original*** $21.45 money order:

    "SA (Max D.) Phillips also requested that a chain of custody be
    maintained, and that ***original postal money order be retained by the
    Washington Field Office safe.***

    SA Parker then surrendered the original US Postal Money Order to SAIC
    Gaiglein, which he had previously placed in a sealed white envelope
    after which SA Parker placed the ***original US Postal Money Order
    sealed in this envelope in the WFO (Washington Field Office) safe.***

    On the morning of November 24, 1963, Deputy Chief Paterni (Secret
    Service, Washington), when informed by SA John H. Grimes, Jr., of this
    Secret Service that the Postal Inspection Service, through Postal
    Inspector Joseph A. Verant advised that the original US Postal Money
    Order ws being sought by the FBI, authorized SA Grimes to surrender
    the original Postal Money Order to the Federal Bureau of
    Investigation. Immediately thereafter, while SA Grimes was attempting
    to make telephone contact with SAIC Glenn Gillies, Washington Field
    Office, Federal Bureau of Investigation, SA Leslie B. Chisholm, FBI,
    telephonicall contacted the reporting agent concerning this original
    US Postal Money Order. SA Chisholm was advised that the postal money
    order was available and he stated he or an agent of the FBI would pick
    up this money order at the Washington Field Ofice of this Secret
    Service).

    SA Grimes of this service removed the sealed envelope containing the
    original US Postal Money ORder from the WFO safe; removed the original
    money order from this envelope; initialed and dated the money order;
    made four photostats of it, and surrendered it to SA Chisholm of the
    FBI who executed a receipt."

    On November 24, SA Chisholm delivered the original money order to
    James T. Freeman at the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC. The summary
    report continued:

    "This paid order was located at the Records Center in Alexandria,
    Virginia on the early evening of November 23. It was turned over to a
    Secret Service agent in Washington, DC who flew it to Dallas."

    NOTE: **The information that a secret service agent hand carried the
    original money order to Dallas came from Harry Holmes. As we have
    seen, this did not happen and was yet another of Holmes'
    fabrications. ***Copies** of the money order were sent to Dallas, but
    the original uncashed and undepostited money order was turned over to
    the FBI laborator.**

    What is the origin of the unused $21.45 money order?

    To be considered later.

    Taken from Harvey and Lee pgs 461-67
    CJ
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  2. #22

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    here is the other side....b
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  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Moore View Post
    Creating The Illusion That Oswald Purchased A
    Rifle From Klein's


    Six days after announcing that Oswald paid $12.78 for the rifle, *the
    FBI changed their story* and said that he paid $19.95 for the rifle
    with the scope already attached (plus $1.50 for postage).

    NOTE: **The author does not know why the FBI changed their story. It
    may have been because Klein's bank records did not show a deposit that
    matched that amount.

    In order to create the illusion that Oswald paid $21.45 for the mail
    order rifle from Klein's, the FBI had to "locate" a corresponding
    deposit in Klein's account at the First National Bank of Chicago. The
    deposit had to be untraceable, which meant that it was made in cash or
    with a US postal money order. *The deposit could not be in the form
    of a personal check, or money order issued by a private company such
    as a bank , Cooks, or American Express.*

    According to FBI reports, Bureau agents began tracking the $21.45
    money order at 9:00 am on the morning of November 23, *even though
    they announced a few hours later that Oswald paid $12.78 for the
    rifle*. They ALLEGEDLY spoke with William Waldman, of Klein's
    Sporting Goods, then ALLEGEDLY spoke with Lester Gohr, the Assistant
    Cashier of the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago. *These agents may
    have interviewed these witnesses, but the information contained in
    their reports suggests that they did not.*

    At 9:00 am FBI agents Gale Johnson, James Hanlon, and Phillip Wanerus
    ALLEGEDLY interviewd Klein's vice-president William Waldman, who
    ALLEDGEDLY told the agents that Klein's records showed that a money
    order in the amount of $21.45 was deposited to the Klein's account at
    the First National Bank of Chicago on March 15, 1963. *It is doubtful
    that Waldman gave this information to these agents, because he had not
    seen an order from "A. Hidell" on the Klein's microfilm. He did not
    know **the price paid for the rifle or the method of payment**. In
    addition, Waldman had already given Klein's microfilm to agents Dolan,
    Toedt, and Mahan earlier that morning.*

    After ALLEDGELY interviewing William Waldman agents Johnson, Hanlon,
    and Wanerus ALLEDGELY interviewed Robert Wilmouth, Vice-President of
    the First National Bank of Chicago *(on Sunday morning)*. According
    to their FBI report, Wilmouth said that Klein's made a deposit in the
    amount of $13,827.98 on Friday, March 15, 1963. This deposit
    contained hundreds of entries on 5 pages of adding machine tape, with
    *two entries* in the amount of $21.45 (the FBI report was wrong; there
    was only *one entry for $21.45* in he $13,827 deposit). Wilmouth
    ALLEDGELY told the agents that one of the entries represented an
    American Express money order and the second deposit item represented a
    postal money order, both in the amount of $21.45. *But how would
    Wilmouth know if these deposits were made with money orders when
    looking at numbers on adding machine tapes? (see Vol 21, p. 706).

    Wilmouth, ALLEDGELY told the agents that both deposits were made on
    March 15, were processed by his bank on March 16 (Saturday), and were
    received by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago on March 18, 1963.
    *But the date on the deposit slip reads "2/13/63-a month before the
    rifle was ordered (p. 706, Volume 21).* *And how could Wilmouth
    possibly know the date that a money order was deposited at the Federal
    Reserve Bank without looking at the cancelled money order, which he
    did not have??* Wilmouth ALLEDEDLY told the agents, "Postal money
    orders are sent to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, which in turn
    sends them to a central processing center located in KANSAS CITY,
    MISSOURI.

    NOTE: **If neither the First National Bank nor the Federal Reserve
    Board had copies of a $21.45 money order (No. 2,202,130,462), then
    Wilmouth could not possibly have known the date the money order was
    received by the Federal Reserve.**

    After ALLEDGELY interviewing Robert Wilmouth agents Johnson, Hanlon,
    and Wanerus ALLEDGELY interviewed Lester Gohr, the Assistant Cashier
    of the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago-*on Saturday morning*.
    According to the FBI report, Gohr said that records of postal money
    orders were only kept for 6 months and that *he had no records prior
    to May 29, 1963.*

    From the information ALLEDGELY obtained from these bankers, we realize
    that if they were interviewd on Saturday morning it is highly unlikely
    they furnished the information that appears in the FBI reports.
    *Also, if they had furnished information about a $21.45 money order to
    FBI agents on Saturday morning, then the Bureau would never have
    announced that Oswald paid $12.78 for the mail order rifle a few hours
    later!* It is far more likely that these FBI reports were fabricated
    in order to create the illusion that a $21.45 postal money order was
    received by Klein's, deposited to their bank account and then sent to
    the Federal Reserve.

    We have already learned the $21.45 money order published in the Warren
    Volumes was **never deposited into a bank or financial institution.**
    *This means the mony order was not deposited to Klein's account at the
    First National Bank of Chicago, nor deposited with the Federal Reserve
    Bank, nor then returned to the Federal Records Center in Alexandria,
    VA. It also means that the information contained in the FBI reports
    of Johnson, Hanlon, and Wanerus was fabricated in order to create the
    illusion that Oswald purchased a $21.45 money order which was
    routinely processed through the federal banking system.

    The "Official Story" of how the $21.45 money order was found.

    At 1:45 pm on Saturday, November 23 Secret Service agent Edward Z.
    Tucker arrived at Klein's Sporting Goods and began interviewing
    William Waldman. At first Waldman was reluctant to speak with Agent
    Tucker, *because he had been told by the FBI agents not to discuss the
    investigation with anyone.* He alledgely told Tucker the price of
    Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was $21.45, including postage, and payment
    may have been made with a money order. Tucker spoke with Secret
    Service agent Griffith, who then called Chicago Postal Inspector Glenn
    Knight and requested help in locating a postal money order in the
    amount of $21.45.

    One of the FBI agents who reviewed the Klein's microfilm, John Toedt,
    ALLEDGELY contracted the Post Office in Chicago and also asked for
    their assistance in locating a postal money order. Toedt was told to
    contract the division headquarters in KANSAS CITY.

    After receiving a call from the SS, Chicago Postal Inspector Martin J.
    McGee ALLEDGELY telephoned Dallas Postal Inspector Cox, who in turn
    contacted Harry Holmes, who stated he thought *he (Holmes) would be
    able to find a record of a $21.45 money order in Dallas.*

    NOTE: **Most of the background information relating to the $21.45
    money order that is found in the reports of the US Post Office
    originated with Harry Holmes and, therefore, should be considered
    extremely suspect.**

    Holmes told the WC, "I passed the information to the men (Dallas
    postal employees) who were looking for this money order 'STUB' to show
    which would designate, which would show the number of the money order,
    and that is the onley way you could find one...within 10 minutes they
    called back and said they had a money order in that amount issued on,
    I don't know that I show, but it was that money order in an amount
    issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this post
    office box was at the time, box 2915, and the money order had been
    issued **early on the morning of March 12th**, 1963.

    NOTE: ** US post offices always kept the end "stub" of all money
    orders sold to customers for their records. ***But neither Holmes nor
    anyone else produced the "stub" or any postal records to support his
    claim that Dallas postal employees in Dallas located the "stub" for
    postal money order No. 2,202,130,462.***

    **Holmes told the WC the money order was issued ***early on the
    morning of March 12th.***, 1963. Yet there is nothing on a postal
    mony order that shows the time of day it was sold. The Commission
    should have asked Holmes how he knew the money order was issued
    "**early on the morning of March 12, 1963.***"

    **The only indication the money order was purchased on the morning of
    March 12 was the postmark show on the microfilm copy of the envelop
    ALLEDGELY mailed to Klein's which read, "10:30 am." The Kleins'
    microfilm was never shown to Holmes and therefore Holmes could not
    have known that a postal money order was issued ***early on the
    morning of March 12, 1963***. The only way Holmes could have known
    about the postmark would be if he had previously seen, or handled, the
    envelope, or if had been told to say that.**

    At 3:30 pm (November 23) Harry Holmes contacted Inspector Lloyd H.
    Stephens in Fort Worth and told him that postal money order No.
    2,202,130,462, in the amount of $21.45, had been used to pay for the
    rifle. Stephens then contacted Inspector Duggan in Washington, DC and
    game him the same information.

    Postal inspectors at the Federal Postal Money Order in Kansas City
    began searching for money order No. 2, 202,130,462, while a Postmaster
    General Staff meeting was held in Washington DC. A summary of the
    meeting prepared by the SS stated, "The initial request for the
    identification and location of the subject US Postal Money order had
    come from Postal Inspector Lloyd Stephens, Fort Worth, Texas.....as a
    result of a conference between Mr. Donald Duggan, Deputy Chief, Postal
    Inspection Service, Washington DC, and Postal Inspection Service at
    Fort Worth, Texas, **the original US Postal Money Order would be
    furnished to this service (Secret Service).**

    At 7:30 pm (CST) Chicago Postal Inspector Glenn Knight advised Secrect
    Service Agent Griffith that Postal Inspectors were attempting to
    locate the postal money order in Kansas City. **Postal inspectors in
    Kansas City had already spent 4 hours looking for postal money order
    No. 2,202,130,462, without success.**

    The Federal Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City was the same
    facility at which 5 other postal money orders were located that had
    been purchased by Oswald and used to repay his $435.71 loan from the
    Department of State. FBI SA Donald E. Stangel obtained the following
    information from the Department of State and the USPS.

    He shows a chart with categories Ser # or M.O.; Amount; Issue Date;
    Location; and Rec'd by State Dept

    The first 5 postal money orders (beginning with series 1,156,417,562)
    purchaed by Oswald in Fort Worth and Dallas were returned to the
    Federal Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City. The last 3 postal
    money ordrs (series 2,202,000,060) were returned to the Federal
    Records Center in Alexander, VA.
    Money order No. 2,202,130.462,
    ALLEDGELY purchased by Oswald from the GPO in Dallas, was ALLEDGELY
    located at the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, VA on the evening
    of November 23, 1963.

    http://www.history-matters.com/archi...22_CE_1138.pdf


    According to the serial numbers on these money orders, the GPO in
    Dallas sold approxiamtely 1200 money orders per week (3888 from
    November 14, 1962-December 6, 1962; 3475 from Jan. 5, 1963-Jan. 25,
    1963). Using 1200 money orders per week as a guide, the serial number
    of the money order ALLEDGELY purchased by Oswald on Mar. 12, 1963, was
    2,202,130,462 (***118,527 numbers higher***). This serial number
    indicates that this money order came from a stack of money orders that
    should not have been sold by the GPO in Dallas until late 1964 or
    early 1965, if sold in numerical order.

    http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/PDF/Vol83_Issue20338_19621129.pdf#search=%22money%20or der%22


    http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/PDF...ney%20order%22 Page 2:


    NOTE: **The Commission failed to ask the Postal Service when money
    orders beginning with 2,202,130 were sent to the Dallas GPO.
    They
    also failed to ask Holmes for the name of the postal employee who
    allededly found the "stub" for the $21.45 money order.** While Postal
    Inspectors continued to search for the $21.45 money order in Kansas
    City, Dallas Postal Inspector/FBI Informatn Harry Holmes advised the
    money ordr could be found in Washington DC. Holmes told the
    Commission, "This number (2,202,130,462) was transmitted to the Chief
    Inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at
    Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out
    this money order and sent it oer, ***so they said***, by special
    conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of the Secret Service at
    Washington now, and it turned out, ***so they said***, to be the
    correct money order. **Holmes was the first and only person in Dallas
    to know the number of the money order, and the first to suggest the
    money order could be located in Washington, DC.**

    http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/PDF...ney%20order%22 Pages 4, 5:
    On the left side of the 2nd image below, there is an explanation of how Oswald came to buy the 60th postal
    money order of the new serial number series of yellow-tinted, key-punched at the sales counter, postal money orders.:




    Observe the date of the burn directive, near top of right column.:


    NOTE: **The WC could not understand why it took nearly ***16 hours***
    to locate the money order. Harry Holmes said the delay was caused
    because the FBI provided him with incorrect information. Holmes said
    the Bureau advised him the amount of the money order was $21.95
    instead of $21.45, which caused him to look for a different money
    order, ***but not a single person corroborated Holmes' story.***

    In Washington, DC, the Deputy Chief of the Postal Inspection Service,
    Donald D. Duggan, insturcted Postal Finance Officer ***J. Harold
    Marks*** to indicate a search for the money order in Washington, DC,
    at 6:30 PM (CST).

    At 7:55 PM (CST), Chicago Secret Service Agent Griffith was told that
    postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 had been located in Washington,
    DC (8:55 EST). Griffith then telephoned agent Mroz, in Kansas City,
    and advised him the $21.45 postal money order had been recovered in
    Washington.

    NOTE: **Apparently the Dallas FBI office was not aware the money
    order had been located. At 9:30 PM (CST) the Dallas office sent an
    airtel to the Director and SAC's in Chicago and New York. The message
    said, "Advised inst. money order culd not be located today, but would
    be located *Nov. twenty four next."*

    Postal money order No. 2,202,190,462 was ALLEDGELY found at the
    Federal Records Center in Alexandria, VA by Robert Jackson, *an
    employee of the National Archives.*

    NOTE: **This $21.45 money order was never deposited into a financial
    institution and therefore could not have been routed through the
    banking system and returned to the Federal Records Center in
    Alexandria, VA. This money order was probably obtained from the GPO
    in Dallas in the early afternoon of November 23, hand-delivered to
    Washington, DC, and "planted" at the Federal Records Center in the
    early evening.**

    **It remains unknown whether Robert Jackson "found" the money order at
    the Federal Records Center or it was given to him. There were no
    witnesses present and neither Jackson, Marks, Parker, nor anyone from
    the National Archives and Records Service were interviewed by the FBI,
    Secret Service, or Warren Commission.**

    Robert Jackson hand-delivered the $21.45 money order to the home of
    **J. Harold Marks** in Washington, DC, who had been told to locate the
    money order by Deputy Chief Donald D. Duggan. A summary report
    prepared by Secret Service Agent Donald E. Burke on November 26, 1963
    provided the details of how the money order was given to the Secret
    Service:

    "At 10:10 PM (EST-9:10 CST) November 23 1963 SA Parker obtained the
    original US Postal Money Order from Mr. Harold Marks at Mr. Marks's
    home. At that time Jackson was identified as Robert H. Jackson, 2121
    Lee Wood Drive, Alexandria, Virginia, telephone, SO 5-7501, and
    employee of the National Archives and Records Service....He informed
    SA Parker that he obtained subject original postal money order and
    surrendered it to Mr. Marks. Both Jackson and Marks initialed and
    dated the original money order, after which it was surrendered to SA
    Parker, who in turn initialed and dated the money order.

    On the evening of November 23, 1963 the $21.45 postal money order was
    initialed and dated by Robert H. Jackson (RHJ), J. Harold Marks (JHM),
    and John E. Parker (JEP). A summary report by the SS explained how
    copies of the money order were sent to the Dallas office:

    "SA Phillips (Secret Service, Dallas) advised, after consultation with
    Inspector Kelley of this service, that two photstats be made of
    subject postal money order and that these photostates be placed on
    Flight #107, Braniff Airlines, departing Washington, DC, at (9:00 am
    on November 24, 1963, and arriving at Dallas, Texas at 11:50 A.M.

    SA Parker made five photostats of subject US Postal Money Order and
    placed them in an envelope. SA Parker surrendered the envelop to
    Captain Davis of Flight #107, Braniff Airlines, departing National
    Airport, Washington, DC, at 9 AM on November 24, 1963, for delivery to
    Special Agent in Charge, US Secret Service at Dallas.

    The secret service provided the Dallas Police with a copy of the money
    order, which was published among their exhibits in the Warren Volumes,
    CE 2003 (DPD file). The Secret Service summary report explained what
    happened to the ***original*** $21.45 money order:

    "SA (Max D.) Phillips also requested that a chain of custody be
    maintained, and that ***original postal money order be retained by the
    Washington Field Office safe.***

    SA Parker then surrendered the original US Postal Money Order to SAIC
    Gaiglein, which he had previously placed in a sealed white envelope
    after which SA Parker placed the ***original US Postal Money Order
    sealed in this envelope in the WFO (Washington Field Office) safe.***

    On the morning of November 24, 1963, Deputy Chief Paterni (Secret
    Service, Washington), when informed by SA John H. Grimes, Jr., of this
    Secret Service that the Postal Inspection Service, through Postal
    Inspector Joseph A. Verant advised that the original US Postal Money
    Order ws being sought by the FBI, authorized SA Grimes to surrender
    the original Postal Money Order to the Federal Bureau of
    Investigation. Immediately thereafter, while SA Grimes was attempting
    to make telephone contact with SAIC Glenn Gillies, Washington Field
    Office, Federal Bureau of Investigation, SA Leslie B. Chisholm, FBI,
    telephonicall contacted the reporting agent concerning this original
    US Postal Money Order. SA Chisholm was advised that the postal money
    order was available and he stated he or an agent of the FBI would pick
    up this money order at the Washington Field Ofice of this Secret
    Service).

    SA Grimes of this service removed the sealed envelope containing the
    original US Postal Money ORder from the WFO safe; removed the original
    money order from this envelope; initialed and dated the money order;
    made four photostats of it, and surrendered it to SA Chisholm of the
    FBI who executed a receipt."

    On November 24, SA Chisholm delivered the original money order to
    James T. Freeman at the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC. The summary
    report continued:

    "This paid order was located at the Records Center in Alexandria,
    Virginia on the early evening of November 23. It was turned over to a
    Secret Service agent in Washington, DC who flew it to Dallas."

    NOTE: **The information that a secret service agent hand carried the
    original money order to Dallas came from Harry Holmes. As we have
    seen, this did not happen and was yet another of Holmes'
    fabrications. ***Copies** of the money order were sent to Dallas, but
    the original uncashed and undepostited money order was turned over to
    the FBI laborator.**

    What is the origin of the unused $21.45 money order?

    To be considered later.

    Taken from Harvey and Lee pgs 461-67
    CJ
    I will take questions, but I cannot anticipate what they will be about because a close reading of the document images I have interspersed in the quoted text of the original post and a close comparison of what is described in
    the original text with the details displayed in the four document images should be an informative exercise, well
    worth the time. Every postal money order issued in Dallas from Jan. 5, 1963, was key-punched at the postal sales
    counter and ended its post deposit or cash in at the then new Alexandria, VA aka Washington, DC postal money order data/audit center, and any postal money order issued in the Dallas postal region on Jan. 4, 1963, or earlier
    was key-punched after manual viewing by a Federal Reserve processing key-punch operator (with round punch holes of machine code representing the numbers of the face value amount as viewed by the operator, on these older, blue tinted money orders.) and was then return to the auto sorting process before being boxed and sent to
    the Kansas City postal money order center. Both the older and the newer, post Jan. 4, 1963 postal money orders were of a tabulator card design.

    Hearings, Reports and Prints of the House Committee on ...
    https://books.google.com/books?id=UBs4AAAAIAAJ
    United States. Congress. House. Committee on Appropriations - 1966 - ?
    .........
    "In March 1960, the Post Office and Treasury Departments
    initiated a study to determine the feasibility of expanding the electronic facilities in the Treasurer's Office to provide for processing postal money orders. Conversion of the money order operation to the electronic system was started in June 1962 and completed in April 1963...."
    Only the new style, yellow-tinted postal money order AKA tabulator cards were handled in this processing innovation, the blue-tinted money order cards issued in the Dallas region before 5 January, 1963, continued to be processed and manually key punched by the Federal Reserve Bank and then sent to the Kansas City postal money order audit center until is closed in 1966. Postal money orders are honored for 20 years after issuance and after the K.C. P.M.O. center closed, the blue-tinted, formerly Federal Reserve Bank key-punched processed money orders were processed by deposit banks as it they were a mutilated version of the newer, yellow tinted postal money orders key-punched at issuance...IOW, manually.




    https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1964&dat=19620623&id=2PQiAAAAIBAJ.. .

    "..and two receipt stubs.." Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes claimed he had one of the two stubs. Why is tbe Holmes stub not listed by the WC?

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...,1089049&hl=en April 16, 1962: Postal Money Orders will be punched out on new machines

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...,2144626&hl=en
    Aug. 4, 1955: All paid postal money orders to go to Kansas City

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=965&dat=19510628&id=iO8kAAAAIBAJ&.. .

    Last edited by Tom Scully; 11-15-2015 at 07:04 AM.
    Peter Janney's uncle was Frank Pace, chairman of General Dynamics who enlisted law partners Roswell Gilpatric and Luce's brother-in-law, Maurice "Tex" Moore, in a trade of 16 percent of Gen. Dyn. stock in exchange for Henry Crown and his Material Service Corp. of Chicago, headed by Byfield's Sherman Hotel group's Pat Hoy. The Crown family and partner Conrad Hilton next benefitted from TFX, at the time, the most costly military contract award in the history of the world. Obama was sponsored by the Crowns and Pritzkers. So was Albert Jenner Peter Janney has preferred to write of an imaginary CIA assassination of his surrogate mother, Mary Meyer, but not a word about his Uncle Frank.

  4. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Scully View Post
    I will take questions,
    I have a question....

    Since it is clear from the reports you copied here that by March '63 Dallas Postal Money Orders were pre-punched with rectangular holes representing the individual serial number of the money order and punched at the time of issuance with round holes representing the its value, why is there no bank endorsement, date stamp, or any other mark indicating that the infamous Hidell money order was processed by a bank--any bank?

    Designers of the negotiable instrument itself clearly anticipated the appearance of bank stamps during processing, since "BANK STAMPS" are mentioned in the legalese on the back of the document. Where are these stamps? John Armstrong has been asking that question for a long time.


    Thank you for the additional documents. John A. is going to work at least one of them into an expansion of his writeup on the money order.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. Default

    Beyond speculation, however, I have learned that according to two unimpeachable sources, Senator Thomas Dodd indeed caused at least one Mannlicher Carcano to be ordered in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald (or in the name of "Alek Hidell") sometime in 1963. (emphasis added by Drago)
    Perhaps you could elaborate on this, Jack?
    "All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)

    James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."

    Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."

    Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."

  6. #26

    Default

    Drew,

    Both Jack White and the author I believe he was quoting, George Michael Evica, have passed away.

    Stay tuned, Armstrong's full reply is on the way.

    You will get a full history of the whole money order process.

    Edited by James DiEugenio, Today, 02:38 AM.
    Now why would any such thing (a "full" history, according to John Armstrong.....) be necessary, Jim?

    Again, I see the question as, do I seek the most accurate information, or information tending to support a theory?
    I started out, on November 9, pushing against recent claims that the $21.45 was "key punched by the Federal Reserve Bank" and this was the proof that it was processed. I did disprove that claim, but the government named
    two men of the Post Office Financial Department in Washington, DC (Herbert Marks and Charles E. Mc cusker)
    who were reported to have found the original money order at their new Postal Money Order audit/data center and my research supports that this is the place all money orders purchased in the Dallas postal region from exactly 5 Jan., 1963, should end up.... after Federal Reserve Bank processing. So, I was misinformed until I myself checked it all out, from Postal and FRB documents.

    Jim, whose research misinformed, me, as to the accurate destination of the $21.45 postal money order. Weren't you also
    informed by the same source I was, that this money order should have gone from the Federal Reserve Bank to the Kansas
    City Postal Money Order Center, and not to Washington, D.C.? I do not appreciate being presented inaccurate information
    and theories, analysis, or accusations based on such information. Do you? Do I have to check everything from original sources?
    Do you.....always? Have you? ...And how many people were involved in the postal money order fraud John Armstrong presented...
    is it getting to be a busload of them.....?

    http://www.history-matters.com/archi...22_CE_1138.pdf



    https://casetext.com/case/stewart-v-us-69 United States District Court, E.D. Michigan, S.D.·300 F. Supp. 1047 (E.D. Mich. 1969) "STEWART V. U.S., (E.D.MICH. 1969) James A. STEWART, Plaintiff, v. UNITED STATES of America, Defendant. Civ. No. 30490. United States District Court, E.D. Michigan, S.D. June 16, 1969. *1048 ....Plaintiff, a short time thereafter, discussed the problem with the superintendent of the Fenkell Station and was informed that Blumenfeld had cashed a number of money orders made out to Norwood Jewelry Company as payee on an endorsement — "Pay to the Order of Clarence Blumenfeld, Norwood Jewelry Company, per Clarence Blumenfeld." Blumenfeld did not have the authority to cash said money orders. They were cashed during a five-month period — August 6, 1963 to January 20, 1964. In all, Blumenfeld cashed 48 checks belonging to Norwood Jewelry Company, with a total value of $3,115.47. ...... Postal money orders are not negotiable instruments and hence are not governed by laws applicable to commercial paper, but are governed by postal laws. Levin v. United States (U.S. Court of Claims, 1959), 170 F.Supp. 646. This court is aware of the fact that postal money orders have limited characteristics which make them like negotiable instruments, but these characteristics are minimal and deprive them of being classified or considered as ordinary negotiable instruments. United States v. First National Bank of Boston (D.C.Mass., 1967), 263 F.Supp. 298. The operation of the postal money order system is a "sovereign function" and not a "commercial operation", notwithstanding it may have some aspects of commercial banking. United States v. Northwestern Nat'l Bank Trust Co. (D.C.Minn., 1940), 35 F.Supp. 484, at 486. *1050 ....."
    [PDF]The Role of the Federal Reserve in the Payments System
    https://www.bostonfed.org/economic/c...45/conf45f.pdf
    by PM Connolly - pg. 136 "....The Federal Reserve’s Role in Developing High-Speed Check

    Sorting Equipment
    When the ABA Technical Subcommittee talked to possible manufac-
    turers of check automation equipment in 1955, it determined that thirteen
    firms might have the potential for building and servicing this specialized
    type of equipment. To provide operational and financial support for this
    key initiative, the Federal Reserve worked with and partially subsidized
    five firms that submitted acceptable proposals: the Burroughs Corpora-
    tion, IBM, National Data Processing Corporation, the National Cash
    Register Company, and Ferranti-Packard. The latter two firms assembled
    systems using their own computers and check sorters made by Pitney
    Bowes. Five Reserve Banks—New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston,
    and San Francisco—participated. Each experimented with the equipment
    from one of these companies.
    In each case the Reserve Banks paid the full lease cost, even though
    the equipment was constantly being adjusted and modified. Thus, the
    Federal Reserve provided a financial incentive for five different manu-
    facturers to participate. In addition, the Reserve Banks devoted staff time and used
    portions of their daily incoming check volumes to help the
    manufacturers test their new equipment. The System hoped that, in the
    long run, multiple firms would succeed. This would encourage compe-
    tition among manufacturers and help create a network with common
    standards, benefiting all banks.
    The Federal Reserve started this pilot project in 1960. By 1965, most
    of its offices and branches were running high-speed check-sorting equip-
    ment supplied by Burroughs and IBM.
    Other manufacturers that partic-
    ipated in the Reserve Bank tests developed lower-speed equipment that
    many smaller commercial banks adopted.
    During the entire experimental period, the accumulated knowledge
    of the System was made available to the banking industry. ..."

    https://www.chicagofed.org/utilities...tory-1940-1964
    Chicago Fed History: 1940-1964
    "...By 1956, the Bank was operating 24 hours a day to clear more than half a billion
    items annually. Approximately 40 percent of the Bank's employees were engaged in
    clearing checks. The operation was, according to the Bank's annual report, the "world's
    largest check-clearing installation."

    Complicating the Bank's task was the labor-intensive, time-consuming nature of check
    clearing. Although proof machines were introduced in 1940s to help automate the process,
    each item had to be individually checked by an operator. The Federal Reserve System and
    commercial bankers began to explore the possibility of automating the process in the
    mid-1950s. The Federal Reserve and the American Bankers Association worked with bankers,
    check printers, and business machine manufacturers to find an answer. The eventual
    solution was MICR — magnetic ink character recognition that would enable machines to
    "read" and automatically process checks.

    In 1961, the Chicago Fed and four other Reserve Banks began to test automated check-
    sorting equipment from different manufacturers. Heading the project at the Chicago Fed
    were Vice President Harry Schultz and Assistant Vice President Carl Bierbauer. The goal
    was to automatically process 1,500 checks a minute on each machine, but there were a
    variety of initial problems. Bierbauer, who went on to become a senior vice president at
    the Bank, recalls, "There were days and weeks when things didn't go right.
    It wasn't a
    case where we just brought in a machine and it worked.".."

    http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/chicagotribune/obituary.aspx?n=carl-e-bierbauer&pid=155873924

    Carl E. Bierbauer, 96, of Naperville, IL, at peace Feb. 12, 2012, - ...."Carl retired
    from the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago in 1977 after more than 43 years of service. As
    Senior Vice President, he was responsible for Fiscal Agent functions, accounting and
    budgeting and all administrative services for eight years. He was one of the first
    Federal Reserve Officers to see the advantages of automated paper check processing...."
    http://www.gao.gov/products/B-149480#mt=e-report
    B-149480, SEP. 26, 1962
    TO BUSINESS SUPPLIES CORPORATION OF AMERICA, THE TABULATING CARD COMPANY DIVISION:
    ..... "IN ADDITION, SECTION 3.2 OF SPECIFICATION POD-F-172 (RE) CONTAINS THE STATEMENT

    "THE AMOUNT WILL BE PRINTED AND PUNCHED AT THE MONEY ORDER SALES WINDOW BY A PRINT PUNCH

    DEVICE WHOSE PERFORMANCE DEPENDS UPON PRECISE CARD DIMENSIONS, ACCURATELY PREPUNCHED

    HOLES, AND ACCURATELY LOCATED IMPRINTING, I.E. DOLLAR VALUE BLOCK, ETC. FOR THESE

    REASONS IT IS REQUIRED THAT EACH BIDDER FURNISH WITH HIS BID A CARTON OF 2,000 FORMS TO

    BE PROCURED CONFORMING IN EVERY RESPECT TO THE REQUIREMENTS HEREIN.' ......YOU

    APPARENTLY WERE AWARE THAT THE MONEY ORDER FORMS WERE TO BE USED BY THE TREASURY

    DEPARTMENT ON HIGHER SPEED MACHINES THAN WERE PREVIOUSLY USED BY THE POST OFFICE

    DEPARTMENT AT THE KANSAS CITY MONEY ORDER CENTER AND THAT, THEREFORE, CLOSER TOLERANCES

    AND A HIGH DEGREE OF WORKMANSHIP WOULD BE REQUIRED. WHILE THE EXPERIENCE OF THE POST

    OFFICE DEPARTMENT WITH THE MONEY ORDER FORMS FURNISHED BY YOU, UNDER THE 1962 FISCAL

    YEAR CONTRACT, IS NOT STRICTLY APPLICABLY TO THE SAMPLES FURNISHED BY YOU AS TO WHAT YOU

    PROPOSED TO FURNISH IF AWARDED THE CONTRACT FOR THE 1963 FISCAL YEAR,"
    Same source, pg. 147: "..By the time the EFA became effective in
    September 1988, the Federal Reserve Board had proposed for public
    comment, and subsequently adopted, regulations to accelerate the return
    process.
    A working group of banking industry and Federal Reserve
    officials contributed operational expertise that supported the develop-
    ment of practical and effective regulatory change.
    The Board also used its new regulatory authority to propose and
    adopt an essential new standard that previously had eluded the banking
    industry.
    To accelerate the check return process, all participants in the
    check system needed a ready means to identify the bank of first deposit.....As a bank of

    first deposit, each institution needed to identify itself clearly and conspicuously. A

    bank handling a check received from a bank of first deposit—for instance, a

    correspondent bank collecting the check on behalf of the bank of first deposit—would

    have to apply its endorse-

    ment in a different format and in a different area of the reverse side of the
    check, so as not to obscure the endorsement of any other bank. Even
    the consumer depositing the check for collection would have to endorse
    the check within a specified space.
    The endorsement standard in place prior to the enactment of the
    Expedited Funds Availability Act had proved inadequate to support
    the clear identification of each bank involved in the collection of a check.

    The banking industry, through the American National Standards Insti-
    tute, or ANSI, had made substantial progress during the 1980s on a more
    comprehensive standard. However, the banks, equipment manufactur-
    ers, and check printers had not reached closure on an adequate new
    standard, in part because of the competitive concerns of particular firms.

    To support the EFA, the Federal Reserve officials who had participated in
    the ANSI process took all that had been accomplished with ANSI and,
    with Board of Governors staff, added the new features needed for an
    effective standard...."
    on page 119 with this link:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=yccPAAAAIAAJ&dq=%22inconvenience+for+some +depository
    +institutions%2C+primarily+the+larger+institutions +that+may+receive+checks+from
    +several*%22&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=lack


    A check, unlike a postal money order is a negotiable instrument of
    multiple endorsements, but....even a check, it turns out, is not required
    to receive an FRB processing endorsement, at least circa 1984:

    ....and this is the longer quote.:
    Page 118 - 119 : (if the page does not display using the link above, click on the

    following link and you'll see a "look inside this book" search box and just
    type in the word, "lack" w/out quotes......

    Federal Reserve Pricing Policy on Check Clearing Services: ...
    https://books.google.com/books?id=yccPAAAAIAAJ
    United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban
    Affairs - 1984 -

    "Although the lack of the Federal Reserve endorsement on checks collected
    through the fine sort program may be a source of inconvenience for some
    depository institutions, primarily the larger institutions that may
    receive checks from several several sources other than the Federal
    Reserve, the fine sort program does not result in significant problems in
    the return item process. We believe the fine sort program results in
    improve- ments in the speed and efficiency of the nation's check
    collection system" .....
    https://books.google.com/books?id=SUbVAAAAMAAJ
    United States. Congress. House. Committee on Appropriations - 1964 - ?Snippet view - ?page 143
    Money Order Audit
    Service Rendered
    Paid domestic money orders flow through banks into the Federal Reserve Sys- tem where they are charged against the Post Office Department's account with the Treasury and forwarded to the Post Office Department. These orders and others settled directly through certain foreign countries must be verified by com- parison with reports of original issuance. The number of money orders issued has been steadily declining as the result of competition and increases in fees. annually. In the process of audit, raised, stolen, or improperly paid money orders are detected which are then referred to postmasters or to the Inspection Service for necessary action. The Audit Unit also handles inquiries as to whether or not specific orders have been paid and issues duplicate orders where originals are reported to have been lost.

    Print-punch order machines
    In 1951 the use of a punched card money order was adopted and in 1955 the audit work was
    centralized in Kansas City, Mo., for the entire country. Only the money order serial number was prepunched on the card. The amount was not punched until the money order reached the Federal Reserve System. A charge has always been made by the Federal Reserve
    for this keypunching work.

    In fiscal 1961, the Department was given funds to buy money order issuing machines which could be used in all post offices and which would punch the amount into the order at the time of issuance. Deliveries of the equipment began late in the fiscal year 1962 and the machines were placed in operation in two regions.

    http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/PDF/Vol83_Issue20342_19621227.pdf#searc... Page 2:


    Page 4: http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/PDF...=%22money%20or


    Installation of the machines in the remaining regions was completed on March 29, 1963. As the money orders issued on the new machines flow into the Federal Reserve System, the Federal Reserve is no longer required to punch the amounts but can process them directly upon receipt. The annual payment to the Federal Reserve, approximately $600,000 in 1961, has now been eliminated. This saving is reflected in the operations appropriation under the clerk account. In addition, the new system will enable the Federal Reserve to detect raised money orders immediately. Under the old system, these frequently were not detected until months later when the money orders were matched with the original records at the Money Order Center at Kansas City. This early detecting will be of much assistance to the the Inspection Service in apprehending persons passing raised money orders.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=z2...lic%2C+and*%22
    page 144 ( "banks, federal reserve, the public, and*" )
    Closeout of Kansas City Money Order Center

    Coincident with the installation of the print punch machines, the audit of the
    money orders was transferred to a computer technique and consolidated with the audit
    of Treasury checks at Washington, D.C., and the closeout of the Money Order Center at
    Kansas City moved into its final phase. The Money Order Center was discontinued on December 1, 1963, except for three caretakers for the files, and all reports of money order issues now go to Money Order Audit Division in Washington, D.C. The last group of files at the Kansas City Center will be destroyed by March 31, 1965 (destruction age) and the caretakers will then be separated and the space leased to the GSA.

    Money Order Audit Division, Washington, D.C.
    In fiscal year 1965, 65 employees will handle payment, inquiry servicinng, and audit of the approximately 250 million money orders issued annually. The machine work will be performed by Treasury on a reim- bursment basis; but all contacts with banks, Federal Reserve, the public, and
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Tom Scully; 11-17-2015 at 03:00 AM.
    Peter Janney's uncle was Frank Pace, chairman of General Dynamics who enlisted law partners Roswell Gilpatric and Luce's brother-in-law, Maurice "Tex" Moore, in a trade of 16 percent of Gen. Dyn. stock in exchange for Henry Crown and his Material Service Corp. of Chicago, headed by Byfield's Sherman Hotel group's Pat Hoy. The Crown family and partner Conrad Hilton next benefitted from TFX, at the time, the most costly military contract award in the history of the world. Obama was sponsored by the Crowns and Pritzkers. So was Albert Jenner Peter Janney has preferred to write of an imaginary CIA assassination of his surrogate mother, Mary Meyer, but not a word about his Uncle Frank.

  7. Default

    Tom: Thank you for a concise answer to my question.


    The idea that Oswald was being used by Dowd's committee as a foil to enact gun control measures dovetails nicely into Caulfield's theory that Oswald was being used (by Bannister, et al.) as a fake Communist to discredit segregationists under Louisiana's Communist Control Act. But as you approach the actual assassination, the evidence of such involvement, and the motive, begins to thin out considerably.
    "All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)

    James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."

    Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."

    Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."

  8. #28

    Default

    Is the creation of a second thread on this same topic, with a title calling out someone who is not a member here and who has quoted much of the research I came up with and presented in my last post on this thread, really necessary?

    A theory is being defended, and we will see more of this defense in the coming days, as Jim DiEugenio is announcing the coming of, at least twice in the past two days. Why the eagerness? We were told that the money order diplayed in the image below was located by the government, in the wrong place....that Washington, DC was the wrong place....

    When you have elected to apply the most sinister explanation for the research details you deem applicable, what happens when some of your claims just do not stand up; considering your methodology was originally prejudiced?

    https://books.google.com/books?id=z2...lic%2C+and*%22
    page 144 ( "banks, federal reserve, the public, and*" )
    Closeout of Kansas City Money Order Center

    Coincident with the installation of the print punch machines, the audit of the
    money orders was transferred to a computer technique and consolidated with the audit
    of Treasury checks at Washington, D.C.,
    and the closeout of the Money Order Center at
    Kansas City moved into its final phase. The Money Order Center was discontinued on December 1, 1963, except for three caretakers for the files, and all reports of money order issues now go to Money Order Audit Division in Washington, D.C. The last group of files at the Kansas City Center will be destroyed by March 31, 1965 (destruction age) and the caretakers will then be separated and the space leased to the GSA.

    Money Order Audit Division, Washington, D.C.
    In fiscal year 1965, 65 employees will handle payment, inquiry servicinng, and audit of the approximately 250 million money orders issued annually. The machine work will be performed by Treasury on a reim- bursment basis; but all contacts with banks, Federal Reserve, the public, and....

    http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/PDF/Vol83_Issue20342_19621227.pdf#searc... Page 2:
    We were told that all postal money orders must display a Federal Reserve Bank endorsement stamp. We were told that the $21.45 postal money order issued in Dallas and date March 12, displayed a grossly out of sequence serial number, a "future" number indicating that the money order was only created after the JFK Assassination, that it was "faked" and "found" in the wrong place, i.e., not at the Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City, MO. I did my own research, just this past week, and now things have changed, and exciting "new" research details will be revealed by the same source that told us the "things" I described above..... I hope readers are wondering just what is fake, and what is not actually supported.

    https://www.computer.org/csdl/procee...0/50680479.pdf
    (Lance Payette brought this to my attention, today.)






    https://casetext.com/case/stewart-v-us-69
    United States District Court, E.D. Michigan, S.D.·300 F. Supp. 1047
    (E.D. Mich. 1969)

    "STEWART V. U.S., (E.D.MICH. 1969)
    James A. STEWART, Plaintiff, v. UNITED STATES of America, Defendant.

    Civ. No. 30490.

    United States District Court, E.D. Michigan, S.D. June 16, 1969. *1048
    .......... Postal money orders are not negotiable instruments and hence
    are not governed by laws applicable to commercial paper, but are governed
    by postal laws. Levin v. United States (U.S. Court of Claims, 1959), 170
    F.Supp. 646. This court is aware of the fact that postal money orders have
    limited characteristics which make them like negotiable instruments, but
    these characteristics are minimal and deprive them of being classified or
    considered as ordinary negotiable instruments.
    United States v. First
    National Bank of Boston (D.C.Mass., 1967), 263 F.Supp. 298.

    The operation of the postal money order system is a "sovereign function"
    and not a "commercial operation",
    notwithstanding it may have some aspects
    of commercial banking. United States v. Northwestern Nat'l Bank Trust
    Co. (D.C.Minn., 1940), 35 F. Supp. 484, at

    486. *1050 ....."
    https://books.google.com/books?id=yc...nvolume&q=lack

    A check, unlike a postal money order is a negotiable instrument of
    multiple endorsements, but....even a check, it turns out, is not required
    to receive an FRB processing endorsement.:


    Page 118 - 119 : (if the page does not display using the link above, click
    on the following link and you'll see a "look inside this book" search box
    and just type in the word, "lack" w/out quotes......

    Federal Reserve Pricing Policy on Check Clearing Services: ...
    https://books.google.com/books?id=yccPAAAAIAAJ
    United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban
    Affairs - 1984 - Snippet view -

    "Although the lack of the Federal Reserve endorsement on checks collected
    through the fine sort program may be a source of inconvenience for some
    depository institutions, primarily the larger institutions that may
    receive checks from several several sources other than the Federal
    Reserve, the fine sort program does not result in significant problems in
    the return item process. We believe the fine sort program results in
    improve- ments in the speed and efficiency of the nation's check
    collection system"

    [PDF]The Role of the Federal Reserve in the Payments System
    https://www.bostonfed.org/economic/c...45/conf45f.pdf
    by PM Connolly - pg. 147 "....The Federal Reserve’s Role in Developing High-Speed Check Sorting Equipment
    "..By the time the EFA became effective in
    September 1988, the Federal Reserve Board had proposed for public
    comment, and subsequently adopted, regulations to accelerate the return
    process.
    A working group of banking industry and Federal Reserve
    officials contributed operational expertise that supported the develop-
    ment of practical and effective regulatory change.
    The Board also used its new regulatory authority to propose and
    adopt an essential new standard that previously had eluded the banking
    industry.
    To accelerate the check return process, all participants in the
    check system needed a ready means to identify the bank of first deposit....

    ....The endorsement standard in place prior to the enactment of the
    Expedited Funds Availability Act had proved inadequate to support
    the clear identification of each bank involved in the collection of a check.

    The banking industry, through the American National Standards Insti-
    tute, or ANSI, had made substantial progress during the 1980s on a more
    comprehensive standard. However, the banks, equipment manufactur-
    ers, and check printers had not reached closure on an adequate new
    standard, in part because of the competitive concerns of particular firms.

    To support the EFA, the Federal Reserve officials who had participated in
    the ANSI process took all that had been accomplished with ANSI and,
    with Board of Governors staff, added the new features needed for an
    effective standard...."
    https://www.chicagofed.org/utilities...tory-1940-1964
    Chicago Fed History: 1940-1964

    .....In 1961, the Chicago Fed and four other Reserve Banks began to test
    automated check-sorting equipment from different manufacturers. Heading
    the project at the Chicago Fed were Vice President Harry Schultz and
    Assistant Vice President Carl Bierbauer. The goal was to automatically
    process 1,500 checks a minute on each machine, but there were a variety of
    initial problems.
    Bierbauer, who went on to become a senior vice president
    at the Bank, recalls, "There were days and weeks when things didn't go
    right. It wasn't a case where we just brought in a machine and it
    worked.".
    ."

    The Role of the Federal Reserve in the Payments System
    https://www.bostonfed.org/economic/c...45/conf45f.pdf by PM Connolly
    - pg. 136 "....The Federal Reserve's Role in Developing High-Speed Check
    Sorting Equipment When the ABA Technical Subcommittee talked to possible
    manufac- turers of check automation equipment in 1955.....

    .....To provide operational and financial
    support for this key initiative, the Federal Reserve worked with and
    partially subsidized five firms that submitted acceptable proposals: the
    Burroughs Corpora- tion, IBM, National Data Processing Corporation, the
    National Cash Register Company, and Ferranti-Packard. The latter two firms
    assembled systems using their own computers and check sorters made by
    Pitney Bowes. Five Reserve Banks--New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston,
    and San Francisco--participated. Each experimented with the equipment from
    one of these companies. In each case the Reserve Banks paid the full lease
    cost, even though the equipment was constantly being adjusted and
    modified. Thus, the Federal Reserve provided a financial incentive for
    five different manufacturers to participate. In addition, the Reserve
    Banks devoted staff time and used portions of their daily incoming check
    volumes to help the manufacturers test their new equipment. The System
    hoped that, in the long run, multiple firms would succeed. This would
    encourage compe- tition among manufacturers and help create a network with
    common standards, benefiting all banks.

    The Federal Reserve started this pilot project in 1960. By 1965, most
    of its offices and branches were running high-speed check-sorting equip-
    ment supplied by Burroughs and IBM. Other manufacturers that partic-
    ipated in the Reserve Bank tests developed lower-speed equipment that
    many smaller commercial banks adopted.

    During the entire experimental period, the accumulated knowledge
    of the System was made available to the banking industry. ..."
    If the challenge is not searching for and identifying the most reliable information to piece together the most reliable
    explanation, then what is going on? "Face" should not be on the top of the list of things needing saving. What is it that is most important to be made reliable, if we are not to be doomed to repeat it?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Peter Janney's uncle was Frank Pace, chairman of General Dynamics who enlisted law partners Roswell Gilpatric and Luce's brother-in-law, Maurice "Tex" Moore, in a trade of 16 percent of Gen. Dyn. stock in exchange for Henry Crown and his Material Service Corp. of Chicago, headed by Byfield's Sherman Hotel group's Pat Hoy. The Crown family and partner Conrad Hilton next benefitted from TFX, at the time, the most costly military contract award in the history of the world. Obama was sponsored by the Crowns and Pritzkers. So was Albert Jenner Peter Janney has preferred to write of an imaginary CIA assassination of his surrogate mother, Mary Meyer, but not a word about his Uncle Frank.

  9. #29

    Default

    We must graciously permit presentation (and consideration) of newly obtained information from continuing research results. This is not happening. The "new" thread on this same topic, begun yesterday, seems a result of my discovery of new information too heretical to even appear on the same page with orthodox belief, and determined defense of such belief.

    Other evidence of this is this seemingly "uncalled for" series of reactions substituting for debate, culminating in.:

    Posted Today, 09:38 PM

    We know what your definition of common sense is Lance.
    Last week, I read something touted by David Von Pein, attributing Jean Davison. Naturally, I thought I know what I know, and I will look into it, push back against it. And, I did that, and Von Pein even conceded

    http://jfk.education/node/11
    "Sorry Brian, Jean, and DVP, Banks Did Not Key-Punch 1963 P.O. Money Orders"

    Unfortunately for some, and quite unintentionally, in the research I did disproving the claims of Von Pein and Jean Davison, I also found that this was unreliable, and this led to other details that have made some uncomfortable, putting it mildly. The "expert" witness relied on here, was out of the loop, as far as ongoing changes of that time.:




    http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/PDF/Vol83_Issue20338_19621129.pdf#search=%22money%20or der%22


    https://books.google.com/books?id=z2...lic%2C+and*%22
    page 144 ( "banks, federal reserve, the public, and*" )
    Closeout of Kansas City Money Order Center

    Coincident with the installation of the print punch machines, the audit of the
    money orders was transferred to a computer technique and consolidated with the audit
    of Treasury checks at Washington, D.C.,
    and the closeout of the Money Order Center at
    Kansas City moved into its final phase. The Money Order Center was discontinued on December 1, 1963, except for three caretakers for the files, and all reports of money order issues now go to Money Order Audit Division in Washington, D.C....
    When I began this presentation, a few posts back, I did not really expect any questions to be posted here. The members who should be asking questions, already know what they know, and this brief presentation certainly reinforces that, and that is a problem if we are intent on determining what really happened.

    Now.... I already shared this, but it has had no effect. They maintain that they know what they know.....so, I'm
    adding a bit more to it. That should spur everyone's interest in exposing themselves to emerging evidence....sure!

    Earlier on page 119, the same cite as in my original post, yesterday.:



    on page 119 with this link:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=yccPAAAAIAAJ&dq=%22inconvenience+for+some +depository
    +institutions%2C+primarily+the+larger+institutions +that+may+receive+checks+from
    +several*%22&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=lack


    (A check, unlike a postal money order is a negotiable instrument of
    multiple endorsements, but....even a check, it turns out, is not required
    to receive an FRB processing endorsement, at least circa 1984) :

    ....and this is the longer quote.:
    Page 118 - 119 : (if the page does not display using the link above, click on the

    following link and you'll see a "look inside this book" search box and just
    type in the word, "lack" w/out quotes......

    Federal Reserve Pricing Policy on Check Clearing Services: ...
    https://books.google.com/books?id=yccPAAAAIAAJ
    United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban
    Affairs - 1984 -

    "Doesn't this practice make the return items task more difficult for payor institutions while making the Federal Reserve's processing task easier?

    The Federal Reserve places an endorsement on all items that it processes through reader sort equipment. However, the Federal Reserve also offers a program, called "fine-sort," whereby depositing institutions may deposit checks that have been presorted and packaged according to payor institution. The Federal Reserve delivers these checks to the payor institutions along with the checks the Federal Reserve has itself processed.
    The collection of checks in the fine sort program is accelerated because they can be deposited later than other check deposits.
    In addition, the fine sort program is the most efficient method of collecting checks in certain instances,
    such as
    when an institution of first deposit has a relatively large number of checks drawn on a particular payor institution.
    Although the lack of the Federal Reserve endorsement on checks collected
    through the fine sort program may be a source of inconvenience for some
    depository institutions, primarily the larger institutions that may
    receive checks from several several sources other than the Federal
    Reserve, the fine sort program does not result in significant problems in
    the return item process. We believe the fine sort program results in
    improve- ments in the speed and efficiency of the nation's check
    collection system" .....
    A talent for googling turns out to be a two edged sword. Here we have a large bank, Chicago First National, presumably with a large number of checks (US Treasury) and postal money orders all destined for the same payor, the Treasurer's ADP system in Washington, DC. - Questions ?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Tom Scully; 11-20-2015 at 01:42 AM.
    Peter Janney's uncle was Frank Pace, chairman of General Dynamics who enlisted law partners Roswell Gilpatric and Luce's brother-in-law, Maurice "Tex" Moore, in a trade of 16 percent of Gen. Dyn. stock in exchange for Henry Crown and his Material Service Corp. of Chicago, headed by Byfield's Sherman Hotel group's Pat Hoy. The Crown family and partner Conrad Hilton next benefitted from TFX, at the time, the most costly military contract award in the history of the world. Obama was sponsored by the Crowns and Pritzkers. So was Albert Jenner Peter Janney has preferred to write of an imaginary CIA assassination of his surrogate mother, Mary Meyer, but not a word about his Uncle Frank.

  10. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Phipps View Post
    So I guess a follow up question is, that's how it works now, but has it always been the same? At least back to 1962?

    Know any 75 year old bank tellers?
    Pssst... Drew? Consider asking your question to someone who is not trying to work backwards to reinforce a strong
    conclusion.....now shaken. You might actually obtain an accurate answer.

    http://jfk.education/node/12 : Klein's Postal Money Order - 1963 Banking System Innovation
    Peter Janney's uncle was Frank Pace, chairman of General Dynamics who enlisted law partners Roswell Gilpatric and Luce's brother-in-law, Maurice "Tex" Moore, in a trade of 16 percent of Gen. Dyn. stock in exchange for Henry Crown and his Material Service Corp. of Chicago, headed by Byfield's Sherman Hotel group's Pat Hoy. The Crown family and partner Conrad Hilton next benefitted from TFX, at the time, the most costly military contract award in the history of the world. Obama was sponsored by the Crowns and Pritzkers. So was Albert Jenner Peter Janney has preferred to write of an imaginary CIA assassination of his surrogate mother, Mary Meyer, but not a word about his Uncle Frank.

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