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Thread: Population Growth "Alarmism" as a Deep Political Control Device

  1. #121
    Mark Stapleton Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Burnham View Post

    Over-population does NOT seem to be the main contributing factor in the minuscule increase of C02 in the atmosphere. Over-consumption, on the other hand, does.
    What utter crap you talk.

    So what should the human race do?

    Keep overpopulating but ensure a high rate of non-consumers?

  2. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Stapleton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Burnham View Post

    Over-population does NOT seem to be the main contributing factor in the minuscule increase of C02 in the atmosphere. Over-consumption, on the other hand, does.
    What utter crap you talk.

    So what should the human race do?

    Keep overpopulating but ensure a high rate of non-consumers?
    You are "begging the question" Mark. We have yet to establish that the planet, as a whole, is over-populated. That is the point of this thread. The topic of the thread is questioning the assumption that there is not enough to go around (aka over-population / Malthusianism). You are assuming the conclusion within your argument, which is circular and therefore fallacious.

    I am not denying that there are regions, even nations, that are over-populated if we define over-population as the number of humans within a region in excess of the resources required to sustain them within at least a minimum standard of quality of life. However, all agencies of government as well as private institutions dedicated to feeding the hungry as well as the United Nations report that there is enough food to go around GLOBALLY. Lack of food and resources is NOT the cause of hunger and neediness in the world today. It is lack of distribution due to political and economic considerations.

    That we fail to find solutions to the distribution issue is abhorrent in my view. That we are willing to accept a paradigm that is over 200 years old (Malthusianism) that basically is completely fatalistic regarding feeding the hungry is morally negligent at best--especially when modern methods of food production and current data proves the old thinking to be flawed.
    Last edited by Greg Burnham; 08-28-2011 at 05:18 PM.
    GO_SECURE

    monk


    "It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."

    James Hepburn -- Farewell America (1968)

  3. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Severson View Post
    You are arguing something completely different than climatologists who claim mmgw is a scientific fact, i.e. you are the user of straw men.
    Gary,

    Obviously you are unfamiliar with the term "Straw Man Argument" and/or what it means in terms of logical fallacies. A Straw Man occurs when: PERSON "1" advances ARGUMENT "A" in a debate and PERSON "2" attempts to rebut that argument by misrepresentation of it. The most common method employed to utilize the Straw Man involves exaggerating the position of PERSON "1" in order to more easily defeat this now weaker argument. As you have aptly demonstrated, most often PERSON "2" has no argument to advance...only fallacious rebuttals.
    GO_SECURE

    monk


    "It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."

    James Hepburn -- Farewell America (1968)

  4. #124

    Default

    How does all of this [the thread in toto, or its major themes] stack up against such things as the movie End::Civ, the two-volume book "Endgame" and its 20 premises, or the writings of Derrick Jensen? Are they relevant?

    http://www.amazon.com/Listening-Land.../dp/1893956253

    http://endciv.com/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hx-G1uhRqA

    http://www.endgamethebook.org/Excerpts/1-Premises.htm


    In terms of global warming and its causes, what scientific studies, experimentation and controls exist or can exist that control for or differentiate among numerous possible causes?

    If man collectively or in terms of mankind (the anthro- factor) must be held accountable (and therefore must prevent the proper response in terms of taxation, regulation and the empowerment of some form of government to take action), and yet it can be argued if not demonstrated that most Western governments are controlled by an elite plutocracy of some form or another, then why must all the people who make up the totality of mankind be forced into a state of mandatory or at least passive compliance with an elite few?

    Is not this idea of the totality of man, the collectivist god, just another layer of elitist claptrap?
    "Where is the intersection between the world's deep hunger and your deep gladness?"

  5. Default Peter Van Dresser 1972

    In 1972 I lived in the experimental house in Carson National Forest four miles up Forest 44 from El Rito which Peter Van Dresser had built.

    We were en route to a seminar at the Ghost Ranch facility where Georgia O'Keefe had worked for so long.

    Full of a new thing, I asked Peter Van Dresser what he thought of the statement in Diet for a Small Planet that an acre devoted to soy beans produced as much protein as twenty acres devoted to beef.

    His reply was instantaneous, gruff, and was meant to be the last word:

    "What do you want to do? Populate every square foot of the planet?"

    His house was stone and very cold in the winter.

    And now George Noory's guests are shrieking doom in re all things soy.

    In 1973 there was a movie in which the food allegedly made from soy beans and lentils was at last anthropocentric.

    WWPVDD

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Burnham View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Severson View Post
    You are arguing something completely different than climatologists who claim mmgw is a scientific fact, i.e. you are the user of straw men.
    Gary,

    Obviously you are unfamiliar with the term "Straw Man Argument" and/or what it means in terms of logical fallacies. A Straw Man occurs when: PERSON "1" advances ARGUMENT "A" in a debate and PERSON "2" attempts to rebut that argument by misrepresentation of it. The most common method employed to utilize the Straw Man involves exaggerating the position of PERSON "1" in order to more easily defeat this now weaker argument. As you have aptly demonstrated, most often PERSON "2" has



    no argument to advance...only fallacious rebuttals.
    That's right Greg, you are rebutting by misrepresenting what AGW scientists say is their position as their way of predicting the development of GW. They don't need to overcome the chaos of the world's weather systems for a valid argument. They never say they are predicting exact scenarios about the future as you misrepresent their arguments. That is your strawman. What they can show using evidence already documented is that certain things have happened related to CO2 increases.

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Severson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Burnham View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Severson View Post
    You are arguing something completely different than climatologists who claim mmgw is a scientific fact, i.e. you are the user of straw men.
    Gary,

    Obviously you are unfamiliar with the term "Straw Man Argument" and/or what it means in terms of logical fallacies. A Straw Man occurs when: PERSON "1" advances ARGUMENT "A" in a debate and PERSON "2" attempts to rebut that argument by misrepresentation of it. The most common method employed to utilize the Straw Man involves exaggerating the position of PERSON "1" in order to more easily defeat this now weaker argument. As you have aptly demonstrated, most often PERSON "2" has



    no argument to advance...only fallacious rebuttals.
    That's right Greg, you are rebutting by misrepresenting what AGW scientists say is their position as their way of predicting the development of GW. They don't need to overcome the chaos of the world's weather systems for a valid argument. They never say they are predicting exact scenarios about the future as you misrepresent their arguments. That is your strawman. What they can show using evidence already documented is that certain things have happened related to CO2 increases.
    The key word here is the word PREDICT. I need not exaggerate their claims. My objection is to predictions of global warming/climate change beyond that which is expected due to seasonal factors, sun activity and/or El Nino and La Nina. Certainly predictions, such as, the "Himalayan Glaciers will be melted by 2035" is such an ill advised prediction.
    GO_SECURE

    monk


    "It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."

    James Hepburn -- Farewell America (1968)

  8. Default

    Of course some extrapolations are oversights by some. Glacier National Park had 125 glaciers 100 yrs. ago or less. It now has 25 & rapidly losing the those. There are phenomena like that that relate to statements about the Himalayas because its glaciers are also rapidly melting. Of course its higher elevations mean it won't lose them as soon. The fear is, as you know, if they all melted the 2-3 billion people that depend on their water will be outa luck. One would think desalinization will ultimately be the solution for water shortages.

  9. #129
    Mark Stapleton Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Burnham View Post
    That is the point of this thread. The topic of the thread is questioning the assumption that there is not enough to go around (aka over-population / Malthusianism). You are assuming the conclusion within your argument, which is circular and therefore fallacious.

    The question of whether there is enough food and resources available (to ensure a reasonable living standard) depends largely on the rate of human population growth doesn't it?

    You seem obsessed with one side of the equation while ignoring the other side.

    Humans share this planet. We don't own it. How many habitats and ecosystems of other species do you need to destroy before you are satisfied?

    You're addicted to human population growth. You're a junkie.

    You need a new job.

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Severson View Post
    Of course some extrapolations are oversights by some. Glacier National Park had 125 glaciers 100 yrs. ago or less. It now has 25 & rapidly losing the those. There are phenomena like that that relate to statements about the Himalayas because its glaciers are also rapidly melting. Of course its higher elevations mean it won't lose them as soon. The fear is, as you know, if they all melted the 2-3 billion people that depend on their water will be outa luck. One would think desalinization will ultimately be the solution for water shortages.
    List of Expanding Glaciers

    Here's a (partial) list of the specific glaciers that are growing

    (There are many more)

    India - Record snowfall revives 2,000 glaciers
    17 Feb 11 - Already more snowfall this month than
    1998 record for the entire month. Think you'll see
    this in the mainstream media?
    See India - Record snowfall revives 2,000 glaciers


    NORWAY
    Ålfotbreen Glacier
    Briksdalsbreen Glacier
    Nigardsbreen Glacier
    Hardangerjøkulen Glacier
    Hansebreen Glacier
    Jostefonn Glacier
    Engabreen glacier (The Engabreen glacier
    is the second largest glacier in Norway. It is a
    part (a glacial tongue) of the Svartisen glacier,
    which has steadily increased in mass since the
    1960s when heavier winter precipitation set in.)

    Norway's glaciers growing at record pace. The face of the Briksdal glacier,
    an off-shoot of the largest glacier in Norway and mainland Europe, is growing by an average 7.2 inches (18 cm) per day. (From the Norwegian daily Bergens Tidende.)


    Click here to see mass balance of Norwegian glaciers:
    http://www.nve.no/

    Choose "English" (at top of the page), choose "Water,"
    then "Hydrology," then "Glaciers and Snow" from the menu.
    You'll see a list of all significant glaciers in Norway.
    (Thanks to Leif-K. Hansen for this info.)
    CANADA
    Helm Glacier
    Place Glacier

    Glaciers growing on Canada’s tallest mountain
    17 Nov 08 – The ice-covered peak of Yukon's soaring Mount Logan
    may be due for an official re-measurement after readings that suggest
    this country's superlative summit has experienced a growth spurt.
    See Glaciers growing on Canada’s tallest mountain

    FRANCE
    Mt. Blanc - See Mont Blanc Glacier almost doubles in size

    ECUADOR
    Antizana 15 Alpha Glacier

    Italy
    Winter snows did not all melt on Italy’s Presena Glacier this summer
    10 Nov 09 - 'Their massive base depth last season meant it didn’t all melt
    over the summer so they have nearly a metre and a half of snow on the glacier ski area already." (The second story of this kind in two years.)
    See Winter snows did not all melt on Italy’s Presena Glacier this summer


    Glaciers growing in Italy
    8 Feb 11 - Glaciers are growing on two different mountains in Italy - Mount Canin and Mount Montasio. Will you see this in the main-stream media?
    Glaciers growing in Italy
    SWITZERLAND
    Silvretta Glacier
    KIRGHIZTAN
    Abramov
    RUSSIA
    Maali Glacier (This glacier is surging. See below)

    GREENLAND See Greenland Icecap Growing Thicker
    Greenland glacier advancing 7.2 miles per year! The BBC recently ran
    a documentary, The Big Chill, saying that we could be on the verge of an ice
    age. Britain could be heading towards an Alaskan-type climate within a decade,
    say scientists, because the Gulf Stream is being gradually cut off. The Gulf
    Stream keeps temperatures unusually high for such a northerly latitude.
    One of Greenland’s largest glaciers has already doubled its rate of advance,
    moving forward at the rate of 12 kilometers (7.2 miles) per year. To see a
    transcript of the documentary,
    go to http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon...illtrans.shtml


    Greenland Ice Sheet Growing Thicker
    4 Nov 05 - After gathering data for more than ten years, a team of
    Norwegian-led scientists has found that the Greenland Ice Sheet is
    actually growing thicker at its interior.
    See Greenland Ice Sheet Growing Thicker


    Rebellious Greenland Glacier Keeps Growing
    26 July 10 - Berlingske Glacier has steadily grown for the past
    100 years. And yet, it's not counted in the glacier inventory. Why
    haven't we heard about this growing glacier?
    See Rebellious Greenland Glacier Keeps Growing
    .
    .

    CHILE
    Pio XI, the largest glacier in South America, grows
    50 meters in height, length and density every day.
    See Pio XI - Largest glacier in Chile - Growing every day

    NEW ZEALAND
    All 48 glaciers in the Southern Alps have grown during the past year.
    The growth is at the head of the glaciers, high in the mountains, where they
    gained more ice than they lost. Noticeable growth should be seen at the
    foot of the Fox and Franz Josef glaciers within two to three years.(27 May 2003)
    See New Zealand Glaciers Growing

    Fox, Franz Josef glaciers defy trend - New Zealand's
    two best-known glaciers are still on the march
    31 Jan 07 - See Franz Josef Glacier still on the march

    See also Pesky New Zealand Glaciers Growing

    See also: Contrarian New Zealand Glaciers Keep Growing


    ARGENTINA
    Argentina's Perito Moreno Glacier, the largest glacier in Patagonia,
    is advancing at the rate of 7 feet per day. The 250 km² ice formation,
    30 km long, is one of 48 glaciers fed by the Southern Patagonian Ice
    Field. This ice field, located in the Andes system shared with Chile,
    is the world's third largest reserve of fresh water.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perito_Moreno_Glacier

    UNITED STATES
    - Colorado (scroll down to see AP article)
    - Washington (Mount St. Helens, Mt. Rainier* and Mt. Shuksan
    - California (Mount Shasta - scroll down for info)
    - Montana (scroll down for info)
    - Glacier Peak, WA (scroll down for info
    - Alaska (Mt. McKinley and Hubbard).

    SPAIN
    Glaciers growing in Spain (Pyrinees)
    10 Jan 11 - El glaciar del Infierno (glacier of Hell) has advanced.
    The mainstream media seems to have somehow missed this.
    See Glaciers growing in Spain (Pyrinees)



    Antarctica growing colder - Ice expanding
    18 Apr 09 - "Ice is expanding in much of Antarctica," says this
    article. In addition, the South Pole has shown "significant cooling
    in recent decades".
    See Antarctica growing colder - Ice expanding



    Antarctic ice grows to record levels
    13 Sep 07 - While the Antarctic Peninsula area has warmed
    in recent years and ice near it diminished during the Southern
    Hemisphere summer, the interior of Antarctica has been colder
    and ice elsewhere has been more extensive and longer lasting,
    See Antarctic ice grows to record levels


    Oops - West Antarctic Ice Sheet
    not losing ice as fast as we thought
    20 Oct 09 — New measurements by
    GPS Network suggest the rate of ice
    loss of the West Antarctic ice sheet
    has been slightly overestimated.
    See Oops - West Antarctic Ice Sheet not losing ice as fast as we thought

    .

    Antarctica's Filchner-Ronne Ice Shelf is growing
    7 Dec 05 – Scientists Joughin and Bamber re-evaluated the mass balances
    of the ice in Antarctica. "It is clear from the results of this study that the
    Filchner-Ronne Ice Shelf is not rapidly, or even slowly, wasting away.
    Quite to the contrary, it is growing."
    See Antarctica's Filchner-Ronne Ice Shelf growing



    Alaska's Hubbard Glacier advancing 7 feet per day!
    10 May 09 – This from climatologist Cliff Harris of the Coeur d’Alene Press.
    It's possible that the glacier could close the fjord by later this summer if the
    current rate speeds up, says Harris.
    See Alaska's Hubbard Glacier advancing 7 feet per day!



    Global Warming? New Data Shows Ice Is Back
    19 Feb 08 - A Feb. 18 report in the London Daily Express showed that there is nearly a third more ice in Antarctica than usual, challenging the global warming crusaders and buttressing arguments of skeptics who deny that the world is undergoing global warming.
    See Most snow cover since 1966
    .
    .

    Mount St. Helens’ Crater Glacier Advancing Three Feet Per Day
    25 Jun 07 - See Crater Glacier


    Against odds, glacier grows in cauldron of Mt. St. Helens
    15 May 08 – See Glacier grows in cauldron of Mt. St. Helens


    Mount St. Helens glacier (Crater Glacier) growing 50 feet per year
    September 20, 2004 - See Mount St. Helens

    Glaciers growing on California's Mount Shasta!
    12 Oct 03 - See Mount Shasta Glaciers Growing
    9 Jul 08 - See also California Glaciers Growing
    28 Mar 11 - See also Glaciers growing on Mt. Shasta

    Geologists Unexpectedly Find 100 Glaciers in Colorado
    7 Oct 01 See Colorado Glaciers Growing


    Washington's Nisqually Glacier Advancing
    But headline says "State's shrinking glaciers: Going ... going ... gone?"
    1 Nov 06 - As far as I’m concerned, this Seattle Times article is another
    case of misleading - if not downright dishonest - reporting.
    See Nisqually Glacier Advancing
    See also Nisqually Glacier

    Glaciers in Montana's Glacier Park on the verge of growing
    5 Oct 2002. See Glacier Park


    Antarctic Ice Sheet is growing thicker
    See Antarctic Icecap Growing Thicker
    See Construction crane buried in the Antarctic Ice Sheet


    Largest glacier in Argentina advancing
    15 Jun 09 – "Argentina's Perito Moreno glacier is (supposedly) one of only a few ice fields worldwide that have withstood rising global temperatures.”
    See Largest glacier in Argentina advancing



    Alaska's Hubbard Glacier advancing 7 feet per day!
    10 May 09 – This from climatologist Cliff Harris of the Coeur d’Alene Press.
    It's possible that the glacier could close the fjord by later this summer if the
    current rate speeds up, says Harris.
    See Alaska's Hubbard Glacier advancing 7 feet per day!


    Glaciers growing on Glacier Peak, WA
    16 Oct 08 – Email from reader
    Before I moved to CO in 2005 it was obvious that the glaciers and snow
    had receded and rock was visible in areas all the way to the peak. The glaciers
    and snow are back now ... completely covered in white from top to bottom,
    and this is after the "warm" summer months here in the PNW.
    See Glaciers growing on Glacier Peak, WA
    .

    Glaciers in Norway Growing Again
    Scandinavian nation reverses trend, mirrors
    results in Alaska, elsewhere, reports the Norwegian Water Resources and Energy Directorate.
    See Glaciers in Norway Growing Again



    Glaciers in western Himalayas thickening and expanding
    Arctic ice cover above it’s 30-year average
    23 Nov 08 - A study published by the American Meteorological Society
    found that glaciers are only shrinking in the eastern Himalayas. Further
    west, in the Hindu Kush and the Karakoram, glaciers are "thickening
    and expanding".
    See Glaciers in western Himalayas thickening and expanding
    .
    .
    Alaskan Glaciers Grow for First Time in 250 years
    16 Oct 08 - High snowfall and cold weather to blame leading
    to the increase in glacial mass.
    See Alaskan Glaciers Grow for First Time in 250 years
    .
    .
    Growing Alaskan glaciers the start of a new Little Ice Age?
    14 Oct 08 – “Never before in the history of a research project dating back
    to 1946 had the Juneau Icefield witnessed the kind of snow buildup that
    came this year. It was similar on a lot of other glaciers too.
    See Growing Alaskan glaciers the start of a new Little Ice Age?
    .
    .
    Himalayan Glaciers Not Shrinking
    Glacial Experts Question Theory of Global Warming
    15 Feb 07 - See Himalayan Glaciers Not Shrinking
    .
    .
    Many people have asked why some glaciers in South America are melting.
    I think it is perfectly understandable. Remember, we have had two of the
    strongest El Ninos on record during the past 21 years. During an El Nino,
    a narrow band of the Pacific Ocean warms by as much as 14 degrees. This
    band of warm water travels east essentially along the equator until it slams
    into South America.

    It seems logical that the increased rainfall caused by El Nino, plus the
    warmer winds blowing across the warmer water, could hasten glacial melt.
    But let me say it again. I do not believe that this is caused by humans, I think
    it is caused by the El Nino phenomenon, which is caused by underwater
    volcanism, which is increasing due to the ice-age cycle.

    With this said, let me point out many glaciers in South America remain
    stable, and some - including the Pio XI Glacier and the Perito Moreno
    Glacier - are growing. The Pio XI Glacier is the largest glacier in the
    southern hemisphere. The Moreno Glacier is the largest glacier in Patagonia.

    I find it curious that news reports do not mention these two glaciers.

    * * *

    Contrary to previous reports, Arctic ice did not thin during the 1990s, say
    researchers at the Department of Oceanography at Göteborg University in
    Göteborg, Sweden. http://www.envirotruth.org/images/ice-in-90s.pdf

    .
    .
    Alaska Glacier Surges -17 Mar 06
    See McGinnis Glacier
    .
    .
    Look at what's happening on Mt. Baker, in Washington State.
    (Mt. Baker is near Mt. Shukson, where glaciers are now growing.)



    This is a photo of my friend Jim Terrell taken on
    Mt. Baker, Washington. Jim is more than six feet
    tall. See the black line about six feet above his head?
    That's where the snow from the winter of 1998/99
    stopped melting. Above that, is snow that never
    melted from the winter of 1999/2000. Why isn't
    the media reporting this sort of thing?


    Photo by Mazz Terrell
    19 July 2000

    ..

    Fast forward 11 years and we find...
    Snow still five stories deep on Mt. Baker road
    13 Jul 11 - “Deepest snow I’ve seen since the world-record year 1999, when the highway didn’t open for the summer,” says maintenance supervisor.
    See Snow still five stories deep on Mount Baker road

    See also Growing_Glaciers
    See also Greenland Icecap Growing Thicker
    and Antarctic Icecap Growing Thicker
    GO_SECURE

    monk


    "It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."

    James Hepburn -- Farewell America (1968)

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