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Thread: The Yankee and Cowboy War

  1. #11

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    Anthony - thank you very much for this thread.

    Plenty of excellent material and insightful analysis from Carl Oglesby.

    Behold the span of this concatenation. First in the time of Trotsky there is General Vlassov and his anti-Bolshevist army and spy ring. The Vlassov apparatus is then at a certain later point assimilated to the Gehlen apparatus. Then just as the White Russian spies jumped to the Nazis when their own army went down, so now the German Nazi and Russian Czarist spies together jumped to the American army as the Wehrmacht was falling. Vlassov first became a department of Gehlen, then Gehlen became a department of Allen Dulles.
    As important as this passage is, my judgement is that Oglesby's interpretation of Gehlen Org, the White Russians and the WASPs of the OSS reaches second base rather than scoring a home run....
    "It means this War was never political at all, the politics was all theatre, all just to keep the people distracted...."
    "Proverbs for Paranoids 4: You hide, They seek."
    "They are in Love. Fuck the War."

    Gravity's Rainbow, Thomas Pynchon

    "Ccollanan Pachacamac ricuy auccacunac yahuarniy hichascancuta."
    The last words of the last Inka, Tupac Amaru, led to the gallows by men of god & dogs of war

  2. Default

    Jan, if you have the time at some point could you paraphrase your own thoughts on the Gehlen Org (along with the other issues you mentioned) and generally indicate where you think Oglesby was off-base? I don't doubt that he may have been but I'm curious as to what your personal opinions are regarding the Org and its influence on US politics. (You might have already discussed this elsewhere on the forum). I find the presence of a Nazi intelligence group within the US apparatus to be seemingly of massive importance with the various conspiracies we've all been looking at, but - aside from John Judge, who has covered the G.O's likely influence on the JFK assassination in an article or two - I've had trouble getting a general feeling as to what folks feel their specific influence was. The Gehlen Org seems to lie within a blind spot in US history, acknowledged but rarely discussed in depth.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Thorne View Post
    .... The Gehlen Org seems to lie within a blind spot in US history, acknowledged but rarely discussed in depth.
    Boy, that's an understatement...:pinkelephant: the whacking huge elephant in the room.....
    "I think it would be a good idea." Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

    The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.
    Karl Marx.

    "Well, he would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies, 1963, replied Ms Rice Davies when the prosecuting counsel pointed out that Lord Astor denied an affair or having even met her.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Thorne View Post
    Jan, if you have the time at some point could you paraphrase your own thoughts on the Gehlen Org (along with the other issues you mentioned) and generally indicate where you think Oglesby was off-base?
    Hi Anthony - I don't think Carl Oglesby was "off-base". Along with the likes of Mae Brussell, he was bang on in identifying the critical importance of the White Russian/Gehlen Org/US Black Ops nexus. I'm simply arguing that, if anything, he underestimated its importance.

    There are several relevant Gehlen threads on DPF: one can be found here.

    The White Russian/Gehlen Org/US Black Ops nexus links directly to Gladio.

    It was cutout Gladio cells who were were tasked with the assassination of, amongst others, President De Gaulle when he "stepped out of line".

    The White Russian/Gehlen Org/US Black Ops nexus also was intimately involved in the development and testing of Manchurian Candidate technology. It had it roots in Occultism and Dissociation, Behaviourist and Operant Condtioning theories of the human psyche, and the military study of "shellshock". See here.

    It is my contention that the Manchurian Candidate project did not produce reliable assassins. However, its intimates opportunistically realized that it did produce perfect patsies.

    Ie you couldn't trust the Manchurian to pull the trigger, but you could put him in the right place at the right time.

    Whomever chose Oswald as the patsy for the assassination of JFK, also knew that his selection would force a closing of ranks to protect American and European intelligence and political secrets.
    "It means this War was never political at all, the politics was all theatre, all just to keep the people distracted...."
    "Proverbs for Paranoids 4: You hide, They seek."
    "They are in Love. Fuck the War."

    Gravity's Rainbow, Thomas Pynchon

    "Ccollanan Pachacamac ricuy auccacunac yahuarniy hichascancuta."
    The last words of the last Inka, Tupac Amaru, led to the gallows by men of god & dogs of war

  5. Default

    Thanks Jan. Everything you say makes sense and there are a few bits and pieces you've raised (primarily the Manchurian Candidate evidence) that I hadn't previously considered, but it does make sense of some of Oswald's background. I need to track down a copy of Armstrong's HARVEY AND LEE to connect much of this I suspect. I also found the John Judge essay 'Assassination as a tool of Fascism' good for linking some of the crucial elements here together as well. In retrospect the purging of the MK-Ultra files by Richard Helms was probably meant to cover up these and many other damning links.

  6. #16

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    I agree with all said above and much more could be added...and might when I have more time [sorry, really don't now..]. Just a few quick thoughts to develop later, I hope. Don't forget Mae Brussel's seminal work "Nazi Connections to the JFK Assassination' which can be found on the internet. For its time and what was known at the time it pieced a lot together! Next, Dulles had no great philosophical nor ethical differences with the Nazis and lots of friends and business / banking connections with them. From my perspective he only disliked their notion to take over the World - that was OUR mandate [from his perspective]. When the Nazis were taken under our wing [as with the G.O.] or into our fold [as with the Nazi scientists and doctors and others] they were allowed not only a 'get-out-of-jail-free-card', but were encouraged and funded to do what they had been doing before in the way of unethical experiments....some in USA and some at remote USA locations, such as Colonia Dignidad and many others. They say that one becomes like one's enemies and in this case it certainly came true [not that we were virgin white before].
    A mysterious Nazi U-Boat laden with nuclear weapons materials and perhaps one other important secret weapon was secretly taken custody of [by pre-arrangement] off the coast of Rhode Island and secretly offloaded and covered up. Some of the contents may well have been used in the two bombs used on Japan....another untold story.
    The USA thwarted many international Nazi Hunters from getting to their quarry when they were persons helpful to the US 'National Security Establishment'. The same kinds of things that got others hung at Nuremburg were now being done for the good 'ol USA - with impunity and in secrecy. Though well documented in a few books, this is still a part of history largely unknown by the average American and certainly not taught in University History courses, etc.
    Also little known are the high-tech secret weapons, patents and ideas taken by the USA after the War. We all know about the rocket scientists, but that was only the tip of an iceberg. Some of these 'ideas' were unethical medical experiments on humans - from pain thresholds, torture techniques, to mind control and beyond.
    Then there is the matter of the plundered money, gold, art, etc. of the Nazis and Japanese. D. Guyatt and S. Seagrave have told much of this story with the Japanese gold, but there is even. more. I believe that Gen. G. Patton was murdered for what he knew of the US theft of huge amounts of Nazi plunder, as well as the absorption of secret weapons and the scientists that went along with them. There is a great book called Nazi Gold about how in the area around Oberammergau after the War buried gold and other valuables were traded and deals made. This is also here where a camp existed through which many of the scientists, doctors, spies and others were laundered. Interestingly, a certain H. Kissinger was stationed there.
    There is more, for another time. This really deserves it own thread.
    If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.” - Frederick Douglass
    "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
    "Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Klimkowski View Post

    It is my contention that the Manchurian Candidate project did not produce reliable assassins. However, its intimates opportunistically realized that it did produce perfect patsies.

    Ie you couldn't trust the Manchurian to pull the trigger, but you could put him in the right place at the right time.

    Whomever chose Oswald as the patsy for the assassination of JFK, also knew that his selection would force a closing of ranks to protect American and European intelligence and political secrets.
    Of the utmost significance.

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Klimkowski View Post
    Anthony - thank you very much for this thread.

    Plenty of excellent material and insightful analysis from Carl Oglesby.

    Behold the span of this concatenation. First in the time of Trotsky there is General Vlassov and his anti-Bolshevist army and spy ring. The Vlassov apparatus is then at a certain later point assimilated to the Gehlen apparatus. Then just as the White Russian spies jumped to the Nazis when their own army went down, so now the German Nazi and Russian Czarist spies together jumped to the American army as the Wehrmacht was falling. Vlassov first became a department of Gehlen, then Gehlen became a department of Allen Dulles.
    As important as this passage is, my judgement is that Oglesby's interpretation of Gehlen Org, the White Russians and the WASPs of the OSS reaches second base rather than scoring a home run....
    Carl spent decades via FOIA attempting to obtain the Gehlen Org. records. He was finally successful in the late 90's. Boxes of records on his own FBI file and Gehlen filled the spare bedroom at his then Camb. apartment. They were ultimately donated, along with Carl's other works and records, to the liab. at U- Mass. Amherst (MA).
    Some enterprising person in the MA area should do some research there.
    Dawn

    Great seeing so much of this downloaded here. Brilliant book.

  9. #19

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy Riddle View Post
    Thanks for this Tracy. A great find!
    "I think it would be a good idea." Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

    The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.
    Karl Marx.

    "Well, he would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies, 1963, replied Ms Rice Davies when the prosecuting counsel pointed out that Lord Astor denied an affair or having even met her.

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