Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 27

Thread: The Fetzer Challenge

  1. #1

    Default The Fetzer Challenge

    Responding to a posting by Jim Fetzer on another thread, I issued the following challenge.


    Quote Originally Posted by James H. Fetzer View Post
    I had more than
    100 conversation with Madeline. She was completely credible and well corroborated.

    Her books about the assassination (DALLAS DID IT! and TEXAS IN THE MORNING)
    are supported by Billy Sol Estes, A TEXAS LEGEND, Barr McClelland, BLOOD, MONEY
    & POWER, E. Howard Hunt's "Final Confession", Phil Nelson's LBJ: MASTERMIND OF
    JFK'S ASSASSINATION, and other sources, including Nigel Turner's "The Guilty Men".
    Let me try to be charitable: The above is the product of a naif.

    To rely upon the criminal and professional prevaricator Estes, the unsubstantiated and apparently disturbed McClelland, and the master propagandist, professional intelligence officer, serial liar and JFK assassination accessory Hunt for corroboration of any postulate up to and including "the eastern horizon lightens at dawn because the sun rises in the east" is to surrender all claims to possession of rational thought processes.

    And Turner's "The Guilty Men" does not "support" Brown's story; rather, it REPORTS BROWN'S STORY. Thus Jim resorts to the sort of sophomoric circular argument that he would laugh out of his Logic 101 course.

    Are you fooling yourself, Jim? Or are you trying to fool us?

    And if the latter ... then why?

    As for Nelson: As has been repeatedly demonstrated on this forum and elsewhere, he is nothing more than the latest in a line of cheapjack touts who, wittingly or otherwise, serve to preserve the JFK cover-up and protect the assassination's true Sponsors by nominating a false Sponsor -- in this case, LBJ.

    So here's an idea for the prolific Professor Fetzer: Why don't you ask every contributor to Assassination Science, Murder in Dealey Plaza, and The Great Zapruder Film Hoax to address these simple questions:


    "In your informed opinion, was Lyndon Baines Johnson the prime mover and architect of the conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy?"

    "Did LBJ possess the power and authority to order the JFK assassination and to have his order implemented by powerful assets within U.S. civilian and military intelligence agencies and other areas of the national/international power structure?"

    "Was LBJ capable of crafting the JFK assassination conspiracy in all its complexity -- including the cover-up?"

    "Do you agree with Phillip Nelson's assessment of LBJ as the 'mastermind' of the JFK assassination?"

    "Do you accept the so-called 'confession' of E. Howard Hunt as a completely truthful statement made without hidden agendas to deceive and disinform?"



    Don't screw around with the wording of the questions, Jim.

    Don't be selective; ask each and every one of your contributors, Jim.

    Don't back down from publishing their responses in full, Jim.

    I am in the process of asking my partners at DPF if they will agree to publish responses in unedited form on these cyber-pages. We operate as a democracy, so the majority decision will rule. I'll keep everyone posted.

    Many of your contributors may find themselves in the terribly uncomfortable position of having to disagree, publicly and most significantly, with a cherished colleague. They may be deeply troubled by the knowledge that their public confirmation of said disagreement likely would raise serious questions about their colleague's critical thinking skills -- for starters.

    But I'm certain that they realize that what's at stake here far transcends preservation of the reputation of one philosopher.

    So what will it be?

    Are you game?

  2. Default Pardon me for jumping in here, but...

    Charles Drago asked:

    "In your informed opinion, was Lyndon Baines Johnson the prime mover and architect of the conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy?"

    "Did LBJ possess the power and authority to order the JFK assassination and to have his order implemented by powerful assets within U.S. civilian and military intelligence agencies and other areas of the national/international power structure?"

    "Was LBJ capable of crafting the JFK assassination conspiracy in all its complexity -- including the cover-up?"

    "Do you agree with Phillip Nelson's assessment of LBJ as the 'mastermind' of the JFK assassination?"

    "Do you accept the so-called 'confession' of E. Howard Hunt as a completely truthful statement made without hidden agendas to deceive and disinform?"



    My replies are in the order asked: No, no, no, no, and no.

    As a contributor to The Guilty Men episode of TMWKK, I must say that my position was not accurately placed in context. Although the actual words I spoke stand on their own, I was placed in the category of "One of those who implicate LBJ..." --which is far too broad a descriptor as the question of "what exactly did I implicate him?" was vaguely implied, if inaccurately, as to be too far reaching. However, I have yet to see any JFK show with which I took no exception. All in all, Nigel did a good job, in my view.
    GO_SECURE

    monk


    "It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."

    James Hepburn -- Farewell America (1968)

  3. #3

    Default Hello Greg and Good Idea CD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Burnham View Post
    Charles Drago asked:

    "In your informed opinion, was Lyndon Baines Johnson the prime mover and architect of the conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy?"

    "Did LBJ possess the power and authority to order the JFK assassination and to have his order implemented by powerful assets within U.S. civilian and military intelligence agencies and other areas of the national/international power structure?"

    "Was LBJ capable of crafting the JFK assassination conspiracy in all its complexity -- including the cover-up?"

    "Do you agree with Phillip Nelson's assessment of LBJ as the 'mastermind' of the JFK assassination?"

    "Do you accept the so-called 'confession' of E. Howard Hunt as a completely truthful statement made without hidden agendas to deceive and disinform?"
    My replies are in the order asked: No, no, no, no, and no.

    As a contributor to The Guilty Men episode of TMWKK, I must say that my position was not accurately placed in context. Although the actual words I spoke stand on their own, I was placed in the category of "One of those who implicate LBJ..." --which is far too broad a descriptor as the question of "what exactly did I implicate him?" was vaguely implied, if inaccurately, as to be too far reaching. However, I have yet to see any JFK show with which I took no exception. All in all, Nigel did a good job, in my view.
    Good to hear from you Burnham. Happy new year by the way. Cheers for the contribution here. I think it's a good idea CD.
    "In the Kennedy assassination we must be careful of running off into the ether of our own imaginations." Carl Ogelsby circa 1992

  4. Default

    I would not get too excited about it. In the thread JFK:What we know now that we didn't know then
    i asked Prefessor Fetzer twice the following question and i am still waiting on his reply
    "Do you believe that LBJ was the man who ultimately decided, authorized and ordered the execution of President Kennedy?"
    Let's hope that he will accept Drago's Challenge.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Burnham View Post
    Charles Drago asked:

    "In your informed opinion, was Lyndon Baines Johnson the prime mover and architect of the conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy?"

    "Did LBJ possess the power and authority to order the JFK assassination and to have his order implemented by powerful assets within U.S. civilian and military intelligence agencies and other areas of the national/international power structure?"

    "Was LBJ capable of crafting the JFK assassination conspiracy in all its complexity -- including the cover-up?"

    "Do you agree with Phillip Nelson's assessment of LBJ as the 'mastermind' of the JFK assassination?"

    "Do you accept the so-called 'confession' of E. Howard Hunt as a completely truthful statement made without hidden agendas to deceive and disinform?"



    My replies are in the order asked: No, no, no, no, and no.

    As a contributor to The Guilty Men episode of TMWKK, I must say that my position was not accurately placed in context. Although the actual words I spoke stand on their own, I was placed in the category of "One of those who implicate LBJ..." --which is far too broad a descriptor as the question of "what exactly did I implicate him?" was vaguely implied, if inaccurately, as to be too far reaching. However, I have yet to see any JFK show with which I took no exception. All in all, Nigel did a good job, in my view.
    Thank you, Greg. Your direct responses are highly valued.

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Drago View Post

    Thank you, Greg. Your direct responses are highly valued.
    You're welcome. Having said that, I also believe that Jim's contributions far and away surpass any position that he has taken that disproportionately relies upon passion for impact. If he has erred, he is not the first among us to do so on the side of passion.
    GO_SECURE

    monk


    "It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."

    James Hepburn -- Farewell America (1968)

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Burnham View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Drago View Post

    Thank you, Greg. Your direct responses are highly valued.
    You're welcome. Having said that, I also believe that Jim's contributions far and away surpass any position that he has taken that disproportionately relies upon passion for impact. If he has erred, he is not the first among us to do so on the side of passion.
    Greg,

    I remain deeply troubled, and even conflicted, by Jim's abandonments of reason and hard-earned deep political lessons in favor of -- what? -- ludicrous-on-their-face offerings.

    The most painful instance is Jim's naive acceptance of Hunt's blatant, final excretion of disinformation.

    Something's wrong here. Terribly wrong. The brilliant, courageous, invaluable warrior for JFK truth and justice who I knew Jim Fetzer to be has been replaced with a thin-skinned naif who, as the 50th anniversary approaches with its anticipated sophisticated attacks on our positions and its heightened public awareness of our highest profile spokespersons, stands to do serious, lasting damage to our shared causes.

    Unwittingly or not.

    The innocent explanation for Jim's metamorphosis leaves me stricken with sadness. The alternative explanation leaves me with boiling blood in my veins.

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Drago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Burnham View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Drago View Post

    Thank you, Greg. Your direct responses are highly valued.
    You're welcome. Having said that, I also believe that Jim's contributions far and away surpass any position that he has taken that disproportionately relies upon passion for impact. If he has erred, he is not the first among us to do so on the side of passion.
    Greg,

    I remain deeply troubled, and even conflicted, by Jim's abandonments of reason and hard-earned deep political lessons in favor of -- what? -- ludicrous-on-their-face offerings.

    The most painful instance is Jim's naive acceptance of Hunt's blatant, final excretion of disinformation.

    Something's wrong here. Terribly wrong. The brilliant, courageous, invaluable warrior for JFK truth and justice who I knew Jim Fetzer to be has been replaced with a thin-skinned naif who, as the 50th anniversary approaches with its anticipated sophisticated attacks on our positions and its heightened public awareness of our highest profile spokespersons, stands to do serious, lasting damage to our shared causes.

    Unwittingly or not.

    The innocent explanation for Jim's metamorphosis leaves me stricken with sadness. The alternative explanation leaves me with boiling blood in my veins.
    Understood, Charles, and appreciated.

    There is a third alternative: Desperation.

    For all the good work that many have fought so hard to complete, there remains enormous frustration.

    This is not an apology, only this "little man's" insight... mine ...for what it's worth.
    GO_SECURE

    monk


    "It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."

    James Hepburn -- Farewell America (1968)

  9. Default Implausible Denial

    I have Assassination Science (1998) and Murder in Dealey Plaza (2000) and found that our radiologist and our surgeon responded quite positively to the radiodensitometry work by Dr. David Mantik.

    I also have my copy of Bond of Secrecy by Saint John Hunt, 2008. being

    “The true story of notorious American spy and Watergate Conspirator E. Howard Hunt and his son, Saint John Hunt. Including startling new information about Watergate and The J.F.K. assassination with photos, documents and the Handwritten memos by E. Howard Hunt from his famous Death bed ‘last confession.’”

    On page 123 of my printout of the ebook, punched, plasticized and bound appropriately by three rings is

    The “chain of command” – Hand written memo by E. Howard Hunt given to Saint John Hunt.

    A box at the top of the lined sheet reads LBJ. Beneath that, a box labeled Cord Myer. Followed by David Morales (with a lateral to Bill Harvey). And at the bottom, French Gunman/Grassy Knoll.

    What more do we need to know. The Colonel in The Billiard Room with The Pool Cue.

    On page 124: “1962 LBJ recruits Cord Myers.” There it is. The rest falls into place: Myers discusses a plot with “Philips” to “bring in Wm. Harvey and Antonio Veciana. He meets with Oswald in Mexico City that summer.”

    So Oswald was a stocky, muscular guy. And the double imprisonment of Duran to force her identification of Oswald, why, that was just a misunderstanding.

    Fold in Frank Sturgis and Morales and a failure to interest Costner.

    In the final act, the others having died, Hunt dies. So, the trail ends with Johnson. Who’s on Dancing With the Czars?

    Hunt wrote 42 novels. He was called in by Allen W. Dulles in 1961 after the latter was forced to resign by the assassinated president who swore to smash the apple of Hunt’s eye into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds.

    Much as the president’s head was done by so much lead it was described as a fusillade.

    And Langley was the apple of Dulles’ eye, Kennedy more the worm. That little Kennedy. . . .he thought he was a god.

    But it was Colonel Mustard, because the dying company man said so right there in a penned box on page 123 on a lined sheet.

    Hunt was not in Dallas that day. He was outside a Chinese grocers. Later in a courtroom Mark Lane convinced a jury that Hunt was not forthcoming. But we may believe him in his attribution of the master plot of the Republic to Landslide, a bully who became a little girl in March of 1968, fleeing official Washington to a heart attack between that of J. Edgar Hoover, and the “effective noon tomorrow” of Richard M. Nixon whose fifteen minutes were up with postage due.

    Helms was the big winner, a company man. The man who kept the secrets. By lying. That’s plausible denial, folks, and that’s the Hunt for Red November.

    Pin the Tail on Johnson.

    Further this deponent sayeth not



  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Dragoo View Post
    I have Assassination Science (1998) and Murder in Dealey Plaza (2000) and found that our radiologist and our surgeon responded quite positively to the radiodensitometry work by Dr. David Mantik.

    I also have my copy of Bond of Secrecy by Saint John Hunt, 2008. being

    “The true story of notorious American spy and Watergate Conspirator E. Howard Hunt and his son, Saint John Hunt. Including startling new information about Watergate and The J.F.K. assassination with photos, documents and the Handwritten memos by E. Howard Hunt from his famous Death bed ‘last confession.’”

    On page 123 of my printout of the ebook, punched, plasticized and bound appropriately by three rings is

    The “chain of command” – Hand written memo by E. Howard Hunt given to Saint John Hunt.

    A box at the top of the lined sheet reads LBJ. Beneath that, a box labeled Cord Myer. Followed by David Morales (with a lateral to Bill Harvey). And at the bottom, French Gunman/Grassy Knoll.

    What more do we need to know. The Colonel in The Billiard Room with The Pool Cue.

    On page 124: “1962 LBJ recruits Cord Myers.” There it is. The rest falls into place: Myers discusses a plot with “Philips” to “bring in Wm. Harvey and Antonio Veciana. He meets with Oswald in Mexico City that summer.”

    So Oswald was a stocky, muscular guy. And the double imprisonment of Duran to force her identification of Oswald, why, that was just a misunderstanding.

    Fold in Frank Sturgis and Morales and a failure to interest Costner.

    In the final act, the others having died, Hunt dies. So, the trail ends with Johnson. Who’s on Dancing With the Czars?

    Hunt wrote 42 novels. He was called in by Allen W. Dulles in 1961 after the latter was forced to resign by the assassinated president who swore to smash the apple of Hunt’s eye into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds.

    Much as the president’s head was done by so much lead it was described as a fusillade.

    And Langley was the apple of Dulles’ eye, Kennedy more the worm. That little Kennedy. . . .he thought he was a god.

    But it was Colonel Mustard, because the dying company man said so right there in a penned box on page 123 on a lined sheet.

    Hunt was not in Dallas that day. He was outside a Chinese grocers. Later in a courtroom Mark Lane convinced a jury that Hunt was not forthcoming. But we may believe him in his attribution of the master plot of the Republic to Landslide, a bully who became a little girl in March of 1968, fleeing official Washington to a heart attack between that of J. Edgar Hoover, and the “effective noon tomorrow” of Richard M. Nixon whose fifteen minutes were up with postage due.

    Helms was the big winner, a company man. The man who kept the secrets. By lying. That’s plausible denial, folks, and that’s the Hunt for Red November.

    Pin the Tail on Johnson.

    Further this deponent sayeth not


    Phil,

    As always, your pleading and/or amendment rings true here as elsewhere.
    GO_SECURE

    monk


    "It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."

    James Hepburn -- Farewell America (1968)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •