Deep Politics Forum

If I recall correctly Frank Olsen's area of expertise was in methods of aerial dispersal.

As noted, I don't suggest I am an expert on the topics, but the more recent posts beg the question:

Was this incident in France the proof-of-concept or early predecessor for chemtrails?

Here, I think all are in the realm of speculation. I don't believe there is any certain evidence of the precise method of dispersal in the French village. One can eliminate some as not likely dispersing to the entire village, but that still leaves many which could: aerosols, water supply, some food that everyone ate, some item that everyone touched, and other more exotic ones. I'd even guess that if one were to search, one would find other towns that were tested with whatever drug it was. It does have LSD-like symptoms of very large doses, but it may have been LSD, an somewhat similar analog, or a mix of LSD with other chemicals. They often used cocktails of drugs.

As to the idea that 'they' wouldn't think to harm a friendly population in preference to potential harm to an 'unfriendly' nation, remember that a bacterium was released from [I believe it was a light bulb that was thrown down and broken] in the NYC subway system to see how quickly and far it would spread. The CIA officially said that the bacteria was harmless, but I remember reading that many people became ill from it!!! How many and how much and if any died is classified, and was not comprehensively collected independently. However, some patients, families, victims and doctors did note strange cases just after the incident and remembered this when the news of the 'trial' was made public many years later.

Just to mention, there are many positive or potentially positive uses of LSD in psychiatry, addiction, depression, mental or physical pain fighting when nothing else works [cancer, end of life (Aldous Huxley, Tim Leary and many others famously took a 'trip' at the end of their lives)], and others. Currently, a number of organizationsincluding the Beckley Foundation, MAPS, Heffter Research Institute and the Albert Hofmann Foundationexist to fund, encourage and coordinate research into the medicinal and spiritual uses of LSD and related psychedelics. Some Universities also have permission to do experiments still. Of course, it is still used recreationally.

Jan,

You said

Quote:Adele - thank you for your thoughtful answer. If you read my post as an attack on yourself and Peter, I can assure you that it was not intended as such.

Sorry, I misunderstood. It was your word "unscientific" which threw me off, thinking I had criticized you for questioning aspects of the case, which I knew I had not done.

Quote:My critique of Albarelli's hypothesis about the Pont St Esprit incident is based around the Scientific Method, and a consideration of how the Pont St Esprit events fit into the context of illegal human experimentation.

"MK-ULTRA" existed wtihin a framework of science. Its technical leaders were doctors and scientists. Men like Jolly West, Harry Harlow, Robert G Heath, George Estabrooks, Martin Orne and Ewen Cameron were world leaders in their scientific fields.

The experiments on humans done by the Nazis, MKULTRA, used tools and technologies developed from scientifkic knowledge, but many of their purposes were not Humanitarian, Moral, or Ethical. The LSD story of effects on a group of unwarned villagers reminds me of our own use of the Atomic Bomb on the cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, without any warning of any kind. It was an Act of War on an enemy.

It may have been possible that some of the French politians and Intelligence/Military people were knowledgeable about this "expeiment".

In the case of Pont-St.-Esprit which occurred in 1951, I can't be sure when, but the CIA purchased pounds of LSD from Sandoz, all they had, and it may have been enough to cover the village and then some. Perhaps someone here could find out the year of purchase. We didn't want the Russians to get it.

I recalled something about Robert Heath, who put deep electrodes ito human brains, particularly schizophrenics. This probably started as an attempt on his part to find the cause of that mental disease. When he was an intern at a hospital and assigned to ambulance duty (in those days there no Emergency Mwedical Technicians at all, so doctors, interns, and residents rode on the ambulances). One night when he was on duty, a call came in about a man who had gone beserk at his home and needed to be hospitalized. It was his own father!

Adele

I see 1953 cited on internet as date CIA purchased 10KG! from Sandoz, but that could well be an untruth to hide the date, or simply mistaken. 10Kg [22 lbs] would provide tens of millions of doses!...many more [10 to the 10th power - 10,000,000,000 = ten billion mild doses]! Where did it all go?! Is it still held by CIA?

Peter Lemkin Wrote:I see 1953 cited on internet as date CIA purchased 10KG! from Sandoz, but that could well be an untruth to hide the date, or simply mistaken. 10Kg [22 lbs] would provide tens of millions of doses!...many more [10 to the 9th power -1,000,000,000 = one billion mild doses]! Where did it all go?! Is it still held by CIA?

Judging from some of the hair-brained operations and policies which have come out of the CIA and the executive branch I'd say they've put it in the water coolers.

Magda Hassan Wrote:

Peter Lemkin Wrote:I see 1953 cited on internet as date CIA purchased 10KG! from Sandoz, but that could well be an untruth to hide the date, or simply mistaken. 10Kg [22 lbs] would provide tens of millions of doses!...many more [10 to the 9th power -1,000,000,000 = one billion mild doses]! Where did it all go?! Is it still held by CIA?

Judging from some of the hair-brained operations and policies which have come out of the CIA and the executive branch I'd say they've put it in the water coolers.

I had made a mistake [and corrected it above]...it was 10 x my first calculation - enough for a very strong trip for every human on the Planet at the time. It couldn't have all been used, unless simply destroyed and I doubt that! Of course, perhaps some brave souls could have been given, say, a gram for a very strong trip.....I'm sure they still have not come down from!

All - thank you for continuing this thread in a constructive and thoughtful fashion.

Here are some criteria that a scientist would presumably consider in designing a a covert, classified Secret, experiment to test the ability of a chemical or biological substance to affect human behaviour:

i) Means of administering the substance effectively to ensure the test subject is genuinely affected (and is not experiencing a placebo effect).

ii) Ability to record the dose of the substance to which the test subject is exposed at various times.

iiii) Ability to monitor and record the reactions of the test subject throughout the time they are exposed to the substance.

iv) Ability to ensure that the experiment remains covert, and that the subjects of these Secret tests are not able to reveal their existence.

Now, known LSD experiments on POWs, prisoners in federal institutions, children in orphanages, soldiers, sailors and airforce personnel, all get a tick in each of the four categories.

Indeed, we can now see once classified films of soldiers struggling over army obstacle courses, and LSD test subjects in clinician's rooms, because the "MK-ULTRA" nexus recorded many of these experiments: firstly, to review and analyse the impact of the drugs at leisure, once the experiment had finished; and secondly, to provide training and informational films once the substances were close to operational field use.

How about Pont St Esprit? I would give a Fail mark in categories i) to iii), as there was zero ability to control and measure dosage, the means of delivery is a matter for speculation but could not have ensured reliable or guaranteed exposure to LSD, and monitoring and recording of the impact on individual test subjects accurately over a period of time would have been very difficult.

With regard to iv), I am yet to be convinced that France, in 1951, was a logical or likely choice. The risks of this grossly unethical secret experiment being exposed were much higher than in a controlled American colony such as Panama or Costa Rica, or a conquered enemy power such as Germany, Austria or Italy.

If the LSD came from Sandoz, technicians from Sandoz were used in the experiment, and it was felt the experiment had to take place close to Swiss labs, then why not use a German or an Italian village?

The French were "our allies".

The following passage is from the 1977 Church Committee:

Quote:MKULTRA was the principal CIA program involving the research and development of chemical and biological agents. It was "concerned with the research and development of chemical, biological, and radiological materials capable of employment in clandestine operations to control human behavior." [11]

In January 1973, MKULTRA records were destroyed by Technical Services Division personnel acting on the verbal orders of Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, Chief of TSD. Dr. Gottlieb has testified, and former Director Helms has confirmed, that in ordering the records destroyed, Dr. Gottlieb was carrying out the verbal order of then DCI Helms.

MKULTRA began with a proposal from the Assistant Deputy Director for Plans, Richard Helms, to the DCI, outlining a special funding mechanism for highly sensitive CIA research and development projects that studied the use of biological and chemical materials in altering human behavior. The projects involved:

Research to develop a capability in the covert use of biological and chemical materials. This area involves the production of various physiological conditions which could support present or future clandestine operations. Aside from the offensive potential, the development of a comprehensive capability in this field of covert chemical and biological warfare gives us a thorough knowledge of the enemy's theoretical potential, thus enabling us to defend ourselves against a foe who might not be as restrained in the use of these techniques as we are. [12]

MKULTRA was approved by the DCI on April 13, 1953 along the lines proposed by ADDP Helms.

Part of the rationale for the establishment of this special funding mechanism was its extreme sensitivity. The Inspector General's survey of MKULTRA in 1963 noted the following reasons for this sensitivity:

a. Research in the manipulation of human behavior is considered by many authorities in medicine and related fields to be professionally unethical, therefore the reputation of professional participants in the MKULTRA program are on occasion in jeopardy.

b. Some MKULTRA activities raise questions of legality implicit in the, original charter.

c. A final phase of the testing of MKULTRA products places the rights and interests of U.S. citizens in jeopardy.

d. Public disclosure of some aspects of MKULTRA activity could induce serious adverse reaction in U.S. public opinion. as well as stimulate offensive and defensive action in this field on the part of foreign intelligence services. [13]

Over the ten-year life of the program, many "additional avenues to the control of human behavior" were designated as appropriate for investigation under the MKULTRA charter. These include "radiation, electroshock, various fields of psychology, psychiatry, sociology, and anthropology, graphology, harassment substances, and paramilitary devices and materials." [14]

The research and development of materials to be used for altering human behavior consisted of three phases: first, the search for materials suitable for study; second, laboratory testing on voluntary human subjects in various types of institutions; third, the application of MKULTRA materials in normal life settings.

The search for suitable materials was conducted through standing arrangements with specialists in universities, pharmaceutical houses, hospitals, state and federal institutions, and private research organi-zations. The annual grants of funds to these specialists were made under ostensible research foundation auspices, thereby concealing the CIA's interest from the specialist's institution.

The next phase of the MKULTRA program involved physicians, toxicologists, and other specialists in mental, narcotics, and general hospitals, and in prisons. Utilizing the products and findings of the basic research phase, they conducted intensive tests on human subjects.

One of the first studies was conducted by the National Institute of Mental Health. This study was intended to test various drugs, including hallucinogenics, at the NIMH Addiction Research Center in Lexington, Kentucky. The "Lexington Rehabilitation Center," as it was then called, was a prison for drug addicts serving sentences for drug violations.

The test subjects were volunteer prisoners who, after taking a brief physical examination and signing a general consent form, were administered hallucinogenic drugs. As a reward for participation in the program, the addicts were provided with the drug of their addiction.

LSD was one of the materials tested in the MKULTRA program. The final phase of LSD testing involved surreptitious administration to unwitting nonvolunteer subjects in normal life settings by undercover officers of the Bureau of Narcotics acting for the CIA.

The rationale for such testing was "that testing of materials under accepted scientific procedures fails to disclose the full pattern of reactions and attributions that may occur in operational situations." [15]

According to the CIA, the advantage of the relationship with the Bureau was that

test subjects could be sought and cultivated within the setting of narcotics control. Some subjects have been informers or members of suspect criminal elements from whom the [Bureau of Narcotics] has obtained results of operational value through the tests. On the other hand, the effectiveness of the substances on individuals at all social levels, high and low, native American and foreign, is of great significance and testing has been performed on a variety of individuals within these categories. [Emphasis added.] [16]

A special procedure, designated MKDELTA, was established to govern the use of MKULTRA materials abroad. Such materials were used on a number of occasions. Because MKULTRA records were destroyed, it is impossible to reconstruct the operational use of MKULTRA materials by the CIA overseas; it has been determined that the use of these materials abroad began in 1953, and possibly as early as 1950.

Drugs were used primarily as an aid to interrogations, but MKULTRA/MKDELTA materials were also used for harassment, discrediting, or disabling purposes. According to an Inspector General Survey of the Technical Services Division of the CIA in 1957 -- an inspection which did not discover the MKULTRA project involving the surreptitious administration of LSD to unwitting, nonvolunteer subjects -- the CIA had developed six drugs for operational use and they had been used in six different operations on a total of thirty-three subjects. [17] By 1963 the number of operations and subjects had increased substantially.

In the spring of 1963, during a wide-ranging Inspector General survey of the Technical Services Division, a member of the Inspector General's staff, John Vance, learned about MKULTRA and about the project involving the surreptitious administration of LSD to unwitting, nonvoluntary human subjects. As a result of the discovery and the Inspector General's subsequent report, this testing was halted and much tighter administrative controls were imposed on the program. According to the CIA, the project was decreased significantly each budget year until its complete termination in the late 1960s.


5. The Testing of LSD by the Army

There were three major phases in the Army's testing of LSD. In the first, LSD was administered to more than 1,000 American soldiers who volunteered to be subjects in chemical warfare experiments. In the second phase, Material Testing Program EA 1729, 95 volunteers received LSD in clinical experiments designed to evaluate potential intelligence uses of the drug. In the third phase, Projects THIRD CHANCE and DERBY HAT, 16 unwitting nonvolunteer subjects were interrogated after receiving LSD as part of operational field tests.

[10] Senate Select Committee, 9/16/75, Hearings, Vol. 1.

[11] Memorandum from the CIA Inspector General to the Director, 7/26/63.

[12] Memorandum from ADDP Helms to DCI Dulles, 4/3/53, Tab A, pp. 1-2.

[13] I.G. Report on MKULTRA, 1963, pp. 1-2.

[14] Ibid, p. 4.

[15] Ibid, P. 21.

[16] Ibid., pp. 11-12.

17] Ibid, 1957, p. 201.

Now, I'm still perfectly prepared to consider the Pont St Esprit hypothesis, and Albarelli may be correct.

I also believe that the narrative published by the Church Committee was almost certainly a limited hangout by the military-industrial-intelligence complex: ie they put the best spin possible on crimes against humanity.

However, there is always a timescale for developing, testing and learning the positive and negative effects of a new drug. This is simply how it is.

The official narrative strongly suggests that it was difficult for the "MK-ULTRA" nexus, in its early Bluebird/Artichoke incarnation, to get much LSD, and it was initially tested primarily for its usefulness as an interrogation tool: ie a truth serum.

Here is the official three phase process (of course the line about "voluntary human subjects" is entirely incorrect, and "institutions" means prisons, orphanages, military bases etc). However, the order of events does have a logical structure:

The research and development of materials to be used for altering human behavior consisted of three phases: first, the search for materials suitable for study; second, laboratory testing on voluntary human subjects in various types of institutions; third, the application of MKULTRA materials in normal life settings.

MK-ULTRA was created in 1953. The Pont St Esprit incident happened in 1951.

So, if Pont St Esprit is part of the "MK-ULTRA" nexus, we are talking about a predecessor programme such as Bluebird or Artichoke. However, it still feels very early in terms of (covert) scientific knowledge of LSD to be conducting a mass field trial.

If Pont St Esprit was an LSD field test on hundreds of humans, then it can only have been to assess its power as an incapacitant.

But why would you need to test this on a village in the territory of an allied power?

Surely, it would be much better to run a military training exercise at one of the CBW bases like Dugway Proving Grounds or Fort Detrick, with Blue and Red teams, and then secretly feed the Red team a measured dose of LSD in their cornflakes just before the exercise began.

Such an experimental design would tick all four of my categories above.

In my judgement, Pont St Esprit fails all four criteria.

From Gordon Thomas' 1988 memo to Eric Olson, son of Frank Olson (see full memo in my post #64 in this thread).

William Sargant was one of the scientific leaders of the British version of "MK-ULTRA":

Quote:Time and again Dr Sargant expressed the view that, from all he had learned from the M15 and his own contacts in Washington, there was a strong prima facie case that Frank Olson had been murdered. Sargant believed that Frank Olson could also have been given a cocktail of drugs that included more than LSD. He said he knew that Dr Gottlieb had been researching into slow-acting depressants which, when taken, could drive a person to suicide.

He also believed that, from his own meetings with Frank Olson, there was a very real possibility that your father could become a whistle-blower if he believed that what was happening was wrong.

After my book was published, I continued to meet with Dr Sargent. At that time, I was hoping to see a new edition of the book published (this was not to be) and I wanted to get Dr Sargant's permission to use all he had told me in a new edition. He said I could only publish what he had said after his death. He died in 1988. This Is the account he gave me of your father's death which I now feel free to make public.

in the summer of 1953 Frank Olson travelled to Britain, once again to visit Porton Down. Sargent met with him. Olson said he was going to Europe to meet with a CIA team led by Dr Gottlieb. By then Sargent had learned that Frank Olson was acting deputy head of SO (Special Operations).

Sargent was satisfied that the CIA team were doing similar work that M16 were conducting in Europe - executing without trial known Nazis, especially SS men. (One of the survivors of the British "hit squad" is Peter Mason who lives in Montana: I know nothing about him).

Sargant saw Frank Olson after his brief visit to Norway and West Germany, including Berlin, in the summer of 1953. He said he was concerned about the psychological changes in Frank Olson. In Sargent's view Olson, primarily a researchbased scientist, had witnessed in the field how his arsenal of drugs, etc. worked with lethal effect on human beings (the "expendable" SS men etc.). Sargant believed that for the first time Olson had come face to face with his own reality.

Sargant told me he believed Frank Olson had witnessed murder being committed with the various drugs he had prepared. The shock of what he witnessed, Sargent believed, was all the harder to cope with given that Frank Olson was a patriotic man who believed that the United States would never sanction such acts. Part of that assumption was formed by Sargent because he had come to see Frank Olson as a somewhat naive man: "locked up in his lab mentality" was, I recall, one of the phrases Sargant used.

I remember Sargent telling me that he spoke several times in 1953 with Frank Olson at Sargent's consulting rooms in Harley Street, London. These were not formal patient/doctor consultations but rather Sargent trying to establish what Frank Olson had seen and done in Europe.

Dr Sargent's own conclusion was that Frank Olson had undergone a marked personality change; many of Olson's symptoms soul searching, seeking reassurance etc. were typical of that, Sargent told me.

He decided that Frank Olson could pose a security risk if he continued to speak and behave as he did. He recommended to his own superiors at the SIS that Frank Olson should no longer have access to Porton Down or to any ongoing British research at the various secret establishments Olson had been allowed prior free access to.

Sargent told me his recommendation was acted upon by his superiors. He was also certain that his superiors, by the nature of the close ties with the CIA, would have informed Richard Helms and Dr Gottlieb of the circumstances why Frank Olson would no longer be given access to British research. Effectively a substantial part of Frank Olson's importance to the CIA had been cut off.

When Dr Sargant learned of Frank Olson's death I recall him telling me it came in a priority message from the British Embassy in Washington Sargant came to the immediate conclusion that Olson could only have been murdered. I recall him telling me that in many ways the staged death was almost classic.

Gordon Thomas' account seems entirely plausible to me.

The claim that, in the early 1950s, "expendable SS men" were being used in terminal behaviour modification and drug experimentation by British and American intelligence, at classified sites such as Porton Down (the British centre for top secret CBW research), is completely credible.

It is also completely believable that some of the lead researchers would have possessed a moral conscience, and would have sought to blow the whistle on such experimentation. And for such integrity, these moral researchers would have been "suicided" and their deaths, when exposed, used as part of the official narrative covering up these crimes against humanity.

Jan, thay had truckloads full of exacting information on subjects under all kinds of conditions, knowing age, health status, means of administration, naive or not to what to expect, mixes of drugs, dosages, etc. They may have just wanted to see what would happen in 'real world' chemical attack on a population [where one can't control much of anything]. If they did it [and I believe they did], they would have had persons to record the reactions/effects hidden about. That real world reaction might have been all they cared about - not careful dosages, who got what/where and maybe even how. Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were rather 'messy' experiments, as well....I can name others.