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+--- Thread: The Sponsor/Facilitator/Mechanic Model Applied to 9/11 (/thread-5704.html)
The Sponsor/Facilitator/Mechanic Model Applied to 9/11 - Dawn Meredith - 27-05-2013
Magda Hassan Wrote:Dawn Meredith Wrote:Jeffrey Orling Wrote:Charles,
This is an interesting criticism. I am not especially interested in the study of deep politics. I am not even sure what you mean by that. I assume it is a view of the world which sees everything (almost) as directed by the hidden *deep state*. I'm probably wrong. If you want to explain it in a paragraph of two I would be interested.
What I have done when I venture into *politics* and the behavior of political forces around the world is take a more cause and effect / stimulus response approach. Party A treats parties B like shit and B kicks back. Why A behaves as it does may be for multiple reasons... racism, or that B happens to be in the way of some economic agenda and so B gets it on the chin. Or perhaps B is used to acheive A's agenda as in slavery.
I see the MIC as driving much of the agenda for the USA and the USA dominates the world these days. The capitalist system seems to support and or be swept up in the empire agenda... that is let's make money any way we can...
When I examine 9/11 I look at the technical aspects of the destruction and I see that the uusual suspects spun the hell out of the event to advance the MIC agenda. As I don't see evidence of CD as others think exists... I dismiss the MIHOP and probably the deep state frame. I think most will agree that the 911 was used to gin up war in the ME and it a bogus case.
Color me naive.
This is not a technical forum... and so perhaps this is not the place to argue physics and engineering... disciplines that Fetzer seems to be not very conversant with but that doesn't seem to prevent him from passing himself off as some sort of expert on technical matters. I think he makes a fool of himself, but others can draw their own conclusions.
Many, not having the requisite technical background nor the time to study the structure and the data come at 911 from a political perspective and then cite supposed experts who provide analysis which support their politically derived pre conception/conclusions. And since we have a lying government this is understandable... and they DID lie about much of 911. But we know that among the objectives of their lies was the GWOT and wars in the ME. And the concept of spinning lies is very different from the concept of creating the underlying event that they then lie or spin about. All one has to do is watch the officials commenting on any world event... they are spinning like a quasar.
nuff said
I don't assume any posture... that is your perception.
WOW!!:
"Charles,
This is an interesting criticism. I am not especially interested in the study of deep politics."
Jeffrey
This may have been addressed before, as I am re-reading this thread ....I recall that these words also jumped out at me when I first read them
If you are not interested then why would you join a forum by this name?
I dis- like all the bickering but to say these words is freaking asking for it. Why not just put a sign on your ass that says "kick me, I deserve it".
Dawn
Yes, this has been addressed before. Several times. Jeffrey was invited to participate this forum along with a group of others, who had been involved in 911 research and discussions elsewhere. He has contributed very good information on a technical and knowledgable basis as to those events using his knowledge of the building itself and his skills as an architect. His voice was a vision of sanity compared to the Fetzerania phantasy coming from you know who. He was much provoked by Fetzer's appalling forum ettiquette as well. And as can be seen Charles has, as usual, had a go at him here. He is new to 'deep political thinking' as such so it is a learning curve for him. You've possibly been getting the same emails and PMs I have Dawn....
Sometimes I should sleep on it before I comment. Or not comment at all. I was very upset over this weekend about something totally unrelated to the forum or matters political and shot at the hip. The plans I had had for the weekend were curtailed by forces beyond my control and I read through that old thread for the first time in ages.
People can come here to learn. And can bring technical knowledge that others lack.
No I was not getting any emails or PMs. I don't have that excuse. I simply allowed my frustration at something cause a mindless post.
Dawn
The Sponsor/Facilitator/Mechanic Model Applied to 9/11 - Jeffrey Orling - 30-05-2013
As was explained previously I was asked to participate in the forum, (I presume) because the forum membership was thin in the technical area of the collapse of the WTC. Reposting and parroting posts which purport to be science and engineering may be dangerous and misleasing trajectory. No sooner than I came, I saw Fetzer's nonsense about the Judy Wood - Where did the Towers Go thread and jumped in to offer some actual technical opinions. I am by no means an expert, but clearly have a leg up technically on 99% of those who use and view the event purely from a political perspective. This is similar, in my opinion to debating a murder about means motive and opportunity (and this is very commonly seen in the 9/11 debates) and glossing over the evidence of the crime... ie making all manner of assumptions about what actually happened. This seems to put the cart before the horse even if it does make for some interesting political analysis.
The issue is further complicated by the fact the official and the various special interests and elites all have hidden and not so hidden agendas and will leverage current events (lie, spin, deceive) in service to their agendas and by not means appear to be concerned with what actually happens, who dunnit and seeing justice and accountability served. They will cover their incompetence and corruption with more gusto then pursue the truth, because corruption being so prevalent would lead to jail time for so many officials. 9/11 clearly involved all manner of corruption both before and after the fact. But the question that needs to be studied is was the event planned in detail and a conspiracy by corrupt officials etc. or one simply exploited by them in a conspiracy after the fact?
Astute readers will know that the intel branches engage as a matter of course in legalized corrupt behavior. Their mission is a sort of unlawful, but sanctioned foreign policy to advance all manner of agendas in the developing world and to strength ties with their corrupt equivalents in developed nations. This includes weapons and drugs, money laundering and murder. Everything goes!
Readers will also observe that the actions of the USA, NATO, intel and the huge corporation which exploit resources and labor arround the world for more wealth and power (military control) are not winning friends around the would except in the installed and propped up elites who are on the Intel/State Department payroll and participate in the hegemony. The little guys are left behind, oppressed and abused and understandable would, will and have fought back in what is called assymetrical warfare or insurgency and terrorism. The USA/NATO are hardly ging to face an equivalent military threat in a 20th style war. That myth is used to move billions and billions of dollars into the MIC and make people rich and produce essentially a useless military machine. War now is shock and awe combing then putting boots on the ground and fighting the locals who want the occupiers out. USA/NATO intel creates its own enemy by its very actions! And not only that the insurgents are infiltrated, monitored and nourished so that they can continue to be the enemy needed to provide the justification for the militarism and policies of aggression and now counter insurgency. Ironic... that the USA creates the insurgents and then declares they must be fought as the endless threat in a perfect never ending self fulfilling mission.
Additionally, the national security state in its many incarnations an branches engages in preparedness excercises ironically simulating the events which they know will occur because they are creating the conditions which give rise to them. These exercises are the false flags which leverage more militarism and overt expression of fascism which is embraced as necessary to make the people feel safe. You see this in the growing franchise of police right through the FBI, CIA and the military itself. Self fulfilling prophesy/processes is a concept worthy of a nobel prize!
Regardless of what event occurs, there is lots of money to be made and power and control to grow. This is a common attribute of these events, 9/11, Katrina, Boston Marathon and the list goes on. They are so good for *business* it seems as if they would be created events in all cases... the perverbial false flag operations. But this has an ironic twist. False flags assume the enemy is an actual threat, and this threat is exploited by staging a false flag. The *enemy* can't be a threat if there is no evidence of their threat. Is it real or is it memorex? Is there terrorism or is it completely a fabricated phenomena? It's probably both and if it both it's also real... at least in some instances. But it's perfect for exploitation, manipulation and leveraging the public and policies. it engenders the kind of up close and personal *fear* which sees people readily giving up their rights for their safety. And giving up their rights means giving more and more power to the national security state.
So we conclude.. terrorism works! It works for the disenfranchized who have no other option and it works for the national security state which has created the perfect foil to advance its agenda and that of the exploitive trans national corps.
Now returning to 9/11. We saw the explotiation and spinning after the fact. It worked a charm! But we need to ask.... Why did the WTC have to be completely destroyed? And why building 7 a virtually unknown and unremarkable tower? Wouldn't hijacked (terrorist tactic) planes slamming into the twin towers be sufficient to leverage the post attack leverage we saw? Would the response have been any different if the towers stood, 7 was only paritially damaged and the WTC campus a blight on the skyline? Who would want to work there again in THOSE buildings? Or lease space in them?
One might argue that it was more economically beneficial to insiders to destroy the whole thing in a single day then it would have been to tear it down and then rebuild something there. Once hit by hijacked planes it was no longer a viable address for commerical activities.
I would argue that virtually no one expected that the towers would collapse from wide bodied plane impacts. And no one expected WTC 7 to collapse either. But no one had *gamed* what unfought fires would do to large skyscrapers and particularly of the unique designs of those 3 buildings. Virtually no one before or since has modeled structural collapses. Engineers don't do that. They engineer buildings with reserve strength for anticipated normal conditions. And those towers/buildings all stand until they are intentional taken down and replaced with newer and better.
I would argue that the collapse exposed they vulnerabilty of the designs and as there were thousands of deaths in the towers, the at least partial negligence of those who were involved in planning, designing and engineering and approving the designs in the wrongful death of thousands. That would certainly need to be covered up for multiple reasons and one of them was it would have been a huge distraction to the post collapse spin. And of course an actual wrongful death lawsuit might expose the complicity of Intel and the use of terrorism around the world. Having it come home and bite the people on US soil was not acceptable. Forigners were expendable in adventurism... not US citizens (witness the lack of concern in the USA at Bhopal or variuos other actions around the world killing and maining thousands).
The outrage over 9/11 appears to be missing the point of what is going on and has been going on. Intel and the MIC and national security state have been playing with fire for decades perhaps a half century and it got out of control right here in the USA. The problem is the hegomony and continuing agenda of capitalism and militarism which when in lockstep as they have grown to be is fascism. That trajectory has been going on since at least WWII.
We've arrived at 1984.... it came in 2001.