+- Deep Politics Forum (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora)
+-- Forum: Deep Politics Forum (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: JFK Assassination (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora/forum-3.html)
+--- Thread: Burroughs Saw Two Oswalds Arrested at Texas Theater (/thread-13892.html)
Burroughs Saw Two Oswalds Arrested at Texas Theater - Jim Hargrove - 03-05-2015
It would be fascinating if Mr. Burroughs would agree to take a privately-sponsored lie detector test for his recent recollection. Heck, if he got a team like the one that tested Ruby, he could probably claim Martians carried four Oswalds out of the building and still pass.
At any rate, even if you flat-out believe Mr. Burroughs is lying or mistaken, reports of the Texas Theater arrest from here on out should include his latter-day remarks to be complete.
Burroughs Saw Two Oswalds Arrested at Texas Theater - Gordon Gray - 06-05-2015
Jim Hargrove Wrote:IIRC the gun Oswald had on him had a damaged firing pin and most likely would have misfired. I doubt it was the gun used to kill Tippit. I am more inclined to believe the report of the seamstresses observing Ruby giving Oswald a gun outside the TSBD just after the assassination. Perhaps Ruby told him to take the bus as a apart of a set up, leading to a confrontation with the police who boarded the bus shortly after Oswald got off. I don't think it is necessary that Tippit knew both Oswalds. He was probably instructed to pick up an Oswald(probably was familiar with Lee) as he got off the bus, as a back up plan, and then ran into Lee by accident. How would Lee know where Tippit was heading if he was on foot? Where was Lee heading when he ran into Tippit? The Texas Theatre to intercept Harvey? And why was he on foot?Drew Phipps Wrote:I believe that the H&L elaborate scenario required for Oswald to obtain the Tippet murder weapon and ammunition from his "double" is unrealistic. I believe that Oswald was smart enough not to willingly do something so stupid to incriminate himself, and yet then be unwilling to take credit for the act later.
We don't believe Harvey got the Tippit murder weapon and extra bullets from Lee. He probably got them from a contact both Oswalds met, most likely the pregnant lady Harvey was seen sitting next to briefly as he wandered about the theater sitting next to various patrons, surely looking for a contact. (Can you think of a more logical explanation for why he would behave that way?) The pregnant lady, an unlikely candidate to watch a war movie alone, left the Texas Theater soon after Harvey sat next to her. This is clearly speculation, but she could easily have walked past that shoe store and given the signal that the patsy was ready to arrest.
The question of why Harvey would accept a gun and bullets under the circumstances is a good one, and I started asking John A. about it immediately after he changed his theory that Lee's job was not to lure police to the theater, but to get the Tippit murder weapon into the patsy's hands. Why would Harvey accept it?
Orders is an easy answer. Both these guys did what they were told, on assassination day and earlier. I have no idea what story Harvey would be told, but it was no doubt a well though out one, to give the gun to someone else, to get rid of it; who knows.
But if you don't like those possibilities, then please explain why the WC's Seaport Traders "evidence" that Harvey bought the pistol in the first place is so god-awful. It's every bit as bad as the rifle "evidence." It's clear the WC attorneys who worked on the pistol didn't have the slightest idea how it got into Harvey's possession.
Burroughs Saw Two Oswalds Arrested at Texas Theater - Jim Hargrove - 09-05-2015
Yeah, and most of these questions can't be answered without a lot of speculation. John says there is conflicting FBI evidence about the condition of the arrest revolver. And the FBI, in yet another clear case of malfeasance, apparently chose not to interview Mrs. Lopez's daughter's co-workers, making the Ruby-Oswald gun transfer infuriatingly unproved.
But, in my opinion at least, the evidence has gotten even stronger over the last few decades that two guys who looked like LHO left the Book Depository that day, and two guys who looked like LHO were confronted by Dallas cops at the theater. That CAN'T be an accident! And if it was planned, then we can look at everything from the TSBD to the boarding house to 10th & Patton to the theater through that lens, and start trying to find the simplest, logical explanation. That's where we may make new progress soon.
One more thing.... There's this loooong thread over on EF about "Oswald" leaving the TSBD and the Nash Rambler. Some are suggesting that the bus and taxi ride never happened, which leaves open the possibility that just one guy who looked like Oswald left the building. To my mind, though, the evidence for the bus ride has simply gotten better over the years. Besides the witnesses, the transfer and Tippit evidently waiting for Harvey at the Gloco station, we also now have the photographs taken during the assassination by Stuart Reed, who managed to capture two shots of the bus, and shots of the TSBD and the theater arrest of Harvey. That doesn't sound like an accident either.
Burroughs Saw Two Oswalds Arrested at Texas Theater - Albert Doyle - 09-05-2015
Frazier told of an Oswald that walked down Houston towards Elm from the back of the Depository and then crossed the street in an easterly direction.
Craig spotted an Oswald getting into a station wagon driven by a swarthy looking man.
Burroughs Saw Two Oswalds Arrested at Texas Theater - Drew Phipps - 09-05-2015
Just because there are multiple "Oswald sightings" doesn't mean there are multiple Oswalds, same way that "Elvis sightings" don't mean that Elvis is alive.
About 5 years ago, I stuck up a conversation with a old guy standing in line in a grocery store in Colorado that I thought was a famous actor, but I couldn't remember his name. I went back to my family and told them what movies I remember with the guy in it: Guns of Navarrone, Lawrence of Arabia... My mother remember his name: Anthony Quinn.
However, Anthony Quinn had been dead for a decade or so before I "talked to him at the grocery store." It was an object lesson for me about eyewitnesses.
Burroughs Saw Two Oswalds Arrested at Texas Theater - Albert Doyle - 09-05-2015
The evidence for multiple Oswalds is pretty strong. Beyond Elvis in my opinion.
Burroughs Saw Two Oswalds Arrested at Texas Theater - Gordon Gray - 09-05-2015
The fact that several people observed a man they thought was Oswald, walking west on 10th at around 1:00PM when another man looking like Oswald was at the rooming house, and several people saw men resembling Oswald taken out of both entrances of the TEX Theatre at the same time, is not the same as an Elvis sighting, and tells me that there were two men in Dallas that day who resembled one another.
Burroughs Saw Two Oswalds Arrested at Texas Theater - Jim Hargrove - 09-05-2015
Even if we're convinced about JA's basic conclusions, as I am, I do think we need to keep in mind Drew's point above. Eyewitnesses do make lots of mistakes. And so we have to go well beyond mere "sightings" and look more deeply into the whole question.
It's surprising how many of these sightings on assassination day are divided between a guy in a white T-shirt, or a white T-shirt and light jacket, and a similar looking fellow in a brown shirt. Enough witnesses referred to these two shirt colors that we can use the observations to differentiate the two Oswalds. Like the guy in the white shirt who an observer noted just happened to be sitting in what turned out to be Carl Mather's car.
I think Hoover and some members of the WC were well aware of the two Oswald problem, and that is why some of the most simple questions about "Lee Harvey Oswald" cannot be answered. For example, could he drive a car? Marina and the Paines elaborately explained that he didn't have a drivers license. "Oswald's" own barber said he drove up to his shop more than once.
Mr. JENNER. You have a distinct recollection that on occasions when this man came into your shop for a haircut, he drove an automobile up to your shop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. He drove that there 1955, I think it's a 1955, I'm sure it's a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon. It's either blue and white or green and white it's two-toned--I know that. Now, why I say--why I take it for granted that Mrs. Paine was with him when he come to the grocery store--I do remember he wasn't driving when they would come to the grocery store, there would be a lady driving and I'm assuming that that was Mrs. Paine, because like I say, I have been--I have never been close enough to her and knew it, to speak to her, but she trades at the service station where I do and I saw her in there and I never did pay any attention to her and I saw her passing, met her in the road in the car and those things. (WC X, 317)
The WC was so confused they got the conflicting witnesses together to talk it out--and still couldn't get a straight answer. One simple phone call to the Dept. of Public Safety could have straightened it all out, but I guess none of those high-powered attorneys knew how to find the number. Or maybe they were afraid it would expose the two Oswalds.
Burroughs Saw Two Oswalds Arrested at Texas Theater - Albert Doyle - 09-05-2015
Again, evidence of malfeasance and a deliberate attempt to avoid investigation by the government that needs to have a public action taken against it.
This was repeated with the Whitworth witnessing. It forced Liebeler to suborn perjury with Marina over Oswald's being witnessed driving to the store. This is a good litmus test for Marina's compliance to intel wants.
Burroughs Saw Two Oswalds Arrested at Texas Theater - Dawn Meredith - 10-05-2015
Drew Phipps Wrote:If you are looking for a wider audience I suggest a web documentary like "In Plane Sight" or "Loose Change." Much of John's material is visual, so that should lend itself to that format. I suspect that you could find plenty of contributors from the folks around here.
Dawn: I've read everything I could get my hands on, and kept many of the books as reference material. I either lent (or sold) "Harvey and Lee" to someone at the courthouse who saw me carrying it about.
Drew: The only JFK book I have ever lent- knowing I may not get it back- was my hard copy of Garrison's book that became the movie. Lent it to then Judge Jade Meeker. I had it with me when I was setting a case for examining trial and she seemed very interested...