+- Deep Politics Forum (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora)
+-- Forum: Deep Politics Forum (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora/Forum-Deep-Politics-Forum)
+--- Forum: JFK Assassination (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora/Forum-JFK-Assassination)
+--- Thread: The Danger Of The Fetzer Assassination School (/Thread-The-Danger-Of-The-Fetzer-Assassination-School)
The Danger Of The Fetzer Assassination School - Albert Doyle - 04-01-2012
Dr Cinque:
I wish you could bring your Oswald's shirt photographic analysis to the board to show us your proof. I honestly watched your video and your so called "proof" is identical to the rambling assumptions you subject us to here. In the end, besides all your unproven assertions, nothing you present precludes it from simply being Lovelady with his shirt open.
Your patronization is visibly misplaced considering what you've already shown us (or haven't shown us).
I've already explained Oswald's statements to you on You-Tube. The simple answer is if you look at the record of Oswald's statements once taken into custody he said some very crazy things. When he said that he was in custody. I'm referring to the things Oswald was recorded saying to FBI in New Orleans. Read them and then tell me you can quote Oswald directly. The rest is just us being forced to listen to your tortured logical fallacy contrivances.
Just because there's good evidence of there being many other cases of severe manipulation in the assassination evidence doesn't make your bogus theory true. Dr Cinque, you've regressed and subjected us to an overly-general overture of the possibility of Altgens photo forgery. We were previously at the point of discussing the credible facts to prove it and you failed to back-up your points in sound reasoning. That is where it stands and you failed to live up to it. Backing up and charging harder with the same stuff won't work. You have to answer the points you couldn't answer.
Most likely Oswald was fooled into thinking he was on another FBI infiltrator assignment to stop the Cuban exiles he had penetrated from pulling-off an assassination. Oswald was probably fooled into thinking he had stopped the Chicago Vallee plot and was on his next assignment. Operating under a plan similar to Operation Northwoods, the patsy Oswald was ordered into the 2nd floor lunchroom in order to be safely secluded away from the action. We've already proven you can't apply any logic to Oswald's statements, however, he would have reason to not reveal he was in the lunchroom if it was part of an operation. In the end your conclusions offer and say nothing.
Once again you commit rogue logical fallacies with casual indifference. Just because Black Tie Man was never identified doesn't mean he was a CIA forgery. He could have been one of the many conspirators that day known to be in the Plaza. That would make him real and there wouldn't it? It would make sense for a military intelligence or mafia guard to be at the front entrance to the Depository wouldn't it? What gets to me the most about the unbuttoned shirt is your refusal to answer whether those buttons were torn-off during Oswald's arrest? Otherwise there's no reason why Lovelady couldn't have had his shirt open too.
Hoover's reluctance could easily be explained by his imposing a refusal to look into any evidence besides the Sniper's Nest Lone Nut version. You are making self-serving suppositions that constitute nothing near the "proof" you claim.
The Danger Of The Fetzer Assassination School - Ralph Cinque - 04-01-2012
Mr. Vazakas,
Just a few weeks ago, at the time of the 49th anniversary in late November, a new rehashing of the official story came out called The Lost Bullet. It was directed by Max Holland. A very elaborate affair, I'm sure it cost millions of dollars to produce.
And right now, they are working on a 10 part television mini-series about the assassination based on Bugliosi's book, Reclaiming History. It is being produced by Tom Hanks. He paid Bugliosi millions of dollars for the rights. It's going to be released for the 50th anniversary in November 2013.
So, even though a 5 year old can tell that Oswald was innocent- I agree with you about that- the fact remains that they, the Establishment, continue to push the official story. What's at stake is the credibility of the US government and the corporate media.
So, it is necessary to keep fighting the good fight. We have to stand up to them. And this issue of Doorman wearing Oswald's shirt is very important. There are no pat answers to it- at least not rational ones. And it is something people can see with their own two eyes. It's fresh. It's new. What more can be said about the magic bullet? Seinfeld was even making jokes about it with the "magic loogie." So, I wish that people would look at it and realize that it is a breakthrough. And I'm sure the other side is aware of it and not happy. This is bad news for them. Grave news.
The Danger Of The Fetzer Assassination School - Vasilios Vazakas - 04-01-2012
And this issue of Doorman wearing Oswald's shirt is very important.
I disagree with your above statement. It is of no significance. The important thing is to understand how the
wilderness of mirrors works and their continuous effort to induce cognitive dissonance. I am afraid i will have to repeat Salandria's words once more: "I'm afraid we were misled. All the critics, myself included, were misled very early. I see that now. We spent too much time and effort microanalyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don't you think that the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: 'We are in control and no one - not the President, nor Congress, nor any elected official - no one can do anything about it.' It was a message to the people that their Government was powerless."
The Danger Of The Fetzer Assassination School - Jan Klimkowski - 04-01-2012
Ralph Cinque Wrote:And right now, they are working on a 10 part television mini-series about the assassination based on Bugliosi's book, Reclaiming History. It is being produced by Tom Hanks. He paid Bugliosi millions of dollars for the rights. It's going to be released for the 50th anniversary in November 2013.
I never could suspend disbelief on seeing Hanks on the Silver Screen. Now I have no need to.
Payment for services rendered is an old and dishonourable tradition.
Ralph Cinque Wrote:So, even though a 5 year old can tell that Oswald was innocent- I agree with you about that- the fact remains that they, the Establishment, continue to push the official story. What's at stake is the credibility of the US government and the corporate media.
Here, Mr Cinque, you reveal you are totally out of sync with the philosophy of the founders, and many of the members, of DPF.
For those at first base, it may be that it is the credibility of the US government and MSM that is at stake.
However, the "US government" as a monolithic entity did not kill JFK, although individual governmental members were clearly involved in the crime and its coverup.
Equally, it is a given that "corporate media" has no credibility, although individual journalists working within MSM may have integrity and may very occasionally shine some light on dark and secret places.
Our task is to gain a deep understanding of the genesis, commission and justification of the ongoing crimes against humanity performed by those who lust for power and control, and seek to rule us.
The "US government" and "corporate media" are not particularly helpful terms in our pursuit of this task.
Ralph Cinque Wrote:So, it is necessary to keep fighting the good fight. We have to stand up to them. And this issue of Doorman wearing Oswald's shirt is very important. There are no pat answers to it- at least not rational ones. And it is something people can see with their own two eyes. It's fresh. It's new. What more can be said about the magic bullet? Seinfeld was even making jokes about it with the "magic loogie." So, I wish that people would look at it and realize that it is a breakthrough. And I'm sure the other side is aware of it and not happy. This is bad news for them. Grave news.
The magic bullet is of crucial importance. It is clear, blatant, proof that the official narrative of Oswald as lone assassin is a lie.
It represents the Sponsors of the grisly public execution of the holder of the highest political office in the world flipping the bird to the great mass of humanity, and stating that Black is White and White is Black because WE SAY SO.
The magic bullet is a direct contravention of the laws of physics and ballistics.
The shirt in the Altgens photo is a palimpsest, in the Borgesian sense, analysis of which establishes nothing.
The Danger Of The Fetzer Assassination School - Ralph Cinque - 04-01-2012
Mr. Doyle,
My photographic analysis of the shirts can be seen on my videos. And they'll also get my verbal analysis.
What did Oswald say that was so crazy? Be specific. Quote him. Do not generalize or paraphrase. You are the one who is citing it, so you quote him. Otherwise, I might start thinking that you are contriving some tortured logical fallacies.
But, I'm glad at least you admit there were "other cases of severe manipulation of assassination evidence." That's a relief, and I'll hold you to it. And you seem to be now admitting the "possibility" of Altgens photo forgery. That's progress too.
But, I am not charging harder with the same stuff. We were talking about Black Hole Man and why his face was missing. Now I am talking about your assertion that Oswald was on the 2nd floor during the shooting. That is different stuff.
Now, as to your speculation that Oswald thought he was on another FBI infiltrator assignment to stop the Cuban exiles from killing Kennedy, it's interesting! But, it is just a speculation, and I trust you realize that your speculations, my speculations, and even Mr. Drago's speculations, are of little value in evaluating points of fact. The simple fact is that anybody can speculate anything.
So, you think Oswald was ordered to stay on the 2nd floor to keep him out of sight. That's plausible. But, it still doesn't explain why he would lie to the police about it. You know, it's a big deal to lie to the police. And if he lied to them in saying that he was outside, he had to know that they'd ask around, try to confirm it. And if he was really inside on the 2nd floor, he had to know that somebody might have seen him there and reported it. So, it was very risky for him to lie. And I don't think that we should assume that he was a stupid person. After all, he learned Russian fluently, reading and writing. Have you ever tried to do that? I have dabbled with it: Doh-bree dyen. Kok-de-lah. Eeez-vee-neet-tee-yea. Das-vee-don-ya. It's hard. More than 10X harder than Spanish. But, he did it.
So, even if he was ordered to remain on the 2nd floor, which is only a speculation on your part, it still doesn't explain why he would lie about it and say that he was outside. So, you haven't covered any ground on that. You haven't lessened the problem at all. In the end, your conclusions offer and say nothing.
It's not just that Black Tie Man was never identified. It's that he was never discussed, never mentioned, never pointed to. "Who is this guy standing so close to Doorman?" That question was never asked. And if they were convinced that Lovelady was Doorman, why didn't they ask him?
So now you think that Black Tie Man was "military intelligence" or a "mafia guard?" Is that what you're saying? Well, if he was, how could the investigators not be interested? How could they claim not to be interested? Of course, the Warren Commission was a whitewash, and apparently, we are in agreement about that. But, for appearances, wouldn't they have to have pretended to be honest and objective and inquired about this potential military intelligence agent or mafia guard?
The buttons were NOT torn off during Oswald's arrest. No one has ever said. No one has ever reported that. And to my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that before. I know that when backed into a corner one tends to grasp at straws in desperation, but there is no basis for it. Why should there be? Are you suggesting that he was buttoned up and some policeman grabbed his shirt and tore through all the buttons? Is that what you're saying? Well, there is no evidence of that. None whatsoever. And just so you know: the only thing worse than being glib is being glibly speculative.
There is no reason why Lovelady couldn't have had his shirt unbuttoned? Well, I realize it was physically possible. But, how likely was it? He was buttoned up shortly afterwards. No one reported him being unbuttoned. And the whole subject was deliberately sidestepped. You're on record as saying there were "severe manipulations." So, why not consider the possibility that avoiding discussing the issue of Lovelady's buttoning habits was one such manipulation?
And, I am afraid that you are making MY point. If" "Hoover's reluctance was easily explained by his imposing a refusal to look into any evidence besides the Sniper's Nest Lone Nut theory" then you are saying that the issue of Lovelady's shirt WAS a threat to the Sniper's Nest Lone Nut theory, and that's why he didn't look at it. Well, that is exactly what I am saying, and that is exactly why we should take it seriously.
Whatever Hoover was looking away from, shunning, we should hone in on. Isn't that a valid practice for conspiracy theorists like you and me?
I'll let you answer the above, but then, we're going to return to the Altgens photo. There is another anomaly I want to point out in this photo, which you insist is unaltered. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about this one.
The Danger Of The Fetzer Assassination School - Ralph Cinque - 04-01-2012
Mr. Vazakas,
I am fighting the cognitive dissonance. And pointing to the fact that Doorman was wearing Oswald's shirt is my way of fighting it.
Ralph Cinque
The Danger Of The Fetzer Assassination School - Vasilios Vazakas - 04-01-2012
Ralph Cinque Wrote:Mr. Vazakas,
I am fighting the cognitive dissonance. And pointing to the fact that Doorman was wearing Oswald's shirt is my way of fighting it.
Ralph Cinque
with all due respect,
but no matter what your intentions, you are achieving quite the opposite, you propagate the cognitive dissonance.
Please do not force me to repeat Salandria's words for a third time.
The Danger Of The Fetzer Assassination School - Ralph Cinque - 04-01-2012
Ms. Klimkowski,
"However, the US government as a monolithic entity did not kill JFK, although individual governmental members were clearly involved in the crime and its coverup."
I never said that the US govt as a monolithic entity killed Kennedy. Kennedy, himself, was part of the monolith, and he certainly didn't kill himself. The number of people involved in the crime may have been relatively small. But, the coverup did involve the entire vast government and the entire vast mainstream media. And it goes on today. They even have Tom Hanks involved. How much broader can you get than that?
"The magic bullet is a direct contravention of the laws of physics and ballistics. The shirt in the Altgens photo is a palimpsest, in the Borgesian sense, analysis of which establishes nothing."
I agree with you about the magic bullet. But people have been talking about it for 5 decades, and they even make jokes about it. Unfortunately, it has lost its emotional impact with the public. But seeing Doorman standing there in Oswald's shirt. That's fresh. That's new. That turns a light on in the head. As one of video viewers commented on my site, "It's ffffffing Oswald!"
The Danger Of The Fetzer Assassination School - Jan Klimkowski - 04-01-2012
Ralph Cinque Wrote:Ms. Klimkowski,
Mr Cinque - my name is Polish, and I'm a bloke.
Are you related to Donald DeFreeze?
The Danger Of The Fetzer Assassination School - Ralph Cinque - 04-01-2012
My apology, Mr. Kimkowski. I am not related to, nor have I ever heard of, Donald DeFreeze. Ralph Cinque