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Larouche Role in Obama Health Care plan - Gary McGowan - 18-11-2009
David Guyatt Wrote:I should like also to see the evidence Jan has asked Gary McGowan to provide rather than being given repetitive and unsubstantiated rhetoric in absence of that evidence.Gentlemen,
What sort(s) of evidence might satisfy? (Really. I'm not trying to play wise ass.) Thanks in advance.
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Larouche Role in Obama Health Care plan - David Guyatt - 18-11-2009
Jan's two posts 19 and 19 above are as specific as one can get.
Larouche Role in Obama Health Care plan - Gary McGowan - 18-11-2009
David Guyatt Wrote:I should like also to see the evidence Jan has asked Gary McGowan to provide rather than being given repetitive and unsubstantiated rhetoric in absence of that evidence.
David Guyatt Wrote:Jan's two posts 19 and 19 above are as specific as one can get.
Which I am here rewording:
Can you please provide some sort of corroboration for claims that the Obama administration’s so called “health care reforms” further policies which are potentially genocidal? … and for terming this fascism (Corporatism)? … and for connecting these policies in some way to the British system? … and for claiming that these policies are intimately connected with the financial crisis?
Yes. Corroboration here.
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Larouche Role in Obama Health Care plan - Linda Minor - 19-11-2009
Quote:http://www.larouchepac.com/node/11975
Instructions: To help others make sense out of your answers, think about the following questions and be sure to explain your answers to your loved ones and health care providers.
If you checked "worth living, but just barely" for more than one factor, would a combination of these factors make your life "not worth living?" If so, which factors?
If you checked "not worth living," does this mean that you would rather die than be kept alive?
Only yesterday I talked to my daughter about this very subject. After watching two of my parents die in a nursing home, I made a decision about what kind of life is worth living. I do not want to be a human vegetable or even a person who has no memory or no ability to function physically and mentally. If that point comes, I told my daughter, do whatever is necessary to make it stop.
For some reason LaRouche is afraid that if people have the legal right to make decisions like that for themselves it will lead to gas chambers like those used in Nazi Germany. It will get people accustomed to the "Brave New World" mentality. That's the reason he fought so hard against Dr. Kevorkian. I can see his point, but I still want to make sure that I have the right to determine ahead of time and give instructions to my family to "pull the plug" on this grandma.
Larouche Role in Obama Health Care plan - David Guyatt - 19-11-2009
The position of LaRouche presented by Gary McGowan is quite ridiculous and cannot be sustained - which has been made more than apparent in this thread by Mr. McGowan repeatedly ducking the requests that he substantiate the allegations he presents.
Linking to a LaRouche thread that merely regurgitates the same scaremongering nonsense is not "corroboration".
Larouche Role in Obama Health Care plan - Dawn Meredith - 19-11-2009
David Guyatt Wrote:The position of LaRouche presented by Gary McGowan is quite ridiculous and cannot be sustained - which has been made more than apparent in this thread by Mr. McGowan repeatedly ducking the requests that he substantiate the allegations he presents.
Linking to a LaRouche thread that merely regurgitates the same scaremongering nonsense is not "corroboration".
When I clicked on the link and saw Obama mocked up to resemble Hitler that was more than enough "evidence" for me.
Linda, you and I are in total agreement as to our later- in- life wishes. I just hope that this country has evolved to the point where such wishes are respected.
Dawn
Larouche Role in Obama Health Care plan - Gary McGowan - 19-11-2009
“Gentlemen, what sort(s) of evidence might satisfy? (Really. I'm not trying to play wise ass.) Thanks in advance,” said Mr. McGowan.
“Jan's two posts 19 and 19 above are as specific as one can get,” said Mr. Guyatt, ducking the above request.
So, let’s assume that Mr. Guyatt is not setting us up with his uncorrected typo, and look at Jan’s posts 17 and 19:
“Do you want to provide some sort of corroboration for LaRouche's inane claims that introducing the British system is fascism in action, leading to the killing of presumably a significant part of the population, to bailout Wall Street?”
A. Nowhere did Mr. McGowan use the phrase, ‘bailout Wall Street.’ He did say, "The Obama administration is protecting the HMOs [health maintenance organizations]." He did say, “these policies are intimately connected with the financial crisis,” and (quoting an LPAC article), “the London-Wall Street axis.” Jan has plastered that phrase, ‘bailout Wall Street,’ all over the place here, not McGowan. And then, Jan says, “This thread is not about Wall Street… If you want to discuss Wall Street…” Good grief.
By the way, do we all know that huge amounts of the U.S. taxpayers money from the bailout went across the Atlantic? That ain't Wall Street.
B. McGowan didn’t say, “introducing the British system,” he said, “…(fascist) austerity measures are being promulgated…”
C. Re Jan's, “words in inverted commas because they all have a special meaning to LaRouchies which requires translation for the rest of us” –
"fascist" – “Bullying by the corporate elite” fits pretty close. You can play philologist here.
"British" – In the tradition of Lord Palmerston and Jeremy Bentham, as opposed to that of Abe Lincoln, the Declaration of Independence, and the
Preamble to the Constitution (of the U.S.A.) Not intended to refer to the people of the U.K. or Britain in general, nor their legislators in general.
"austerity" – looting of the General Welfare to benefit and sustain the financial elite
D. Corroboration. McGowan pointed towards lots of it. McGowan can’t force you to consider it thoughtfully or discuss the history or more current reports or analyses presented there, especially in the video documentaries. "British" – In the tradition of Lord Palmerston and Jeremy Bentham, as opposed to that of Abe Lincoln, the Declaration of Independence, and the
Preamble to the Constitution (of the U.S.A.) Not intended to refer to the people of the U.K. or Britain in general, nor their legislators in general.
"austerity" – looting of the General Welfare to benefit and sustain the financial elite
E. “The position of LaRouche presented by Gary McGowan is quite ridiculous and cannot be sustained.”
Perhaps McGowan failed to represent LaRouche's position accurately. McGowan did try to point the reader to LaRouche's (and colleagues’) own words, though.
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Larouche Role in Obama Health Care plan - Jan Klimkowski - 19-11-2009
Gary McGowan Wrote:It's the "reform" -- the austerity measures -- being promulgated, that LaRouche is talking about, not the NHS itself. LaRouche and colleagues have never said nor intended to imply that the British NHS is an inherently fascist system. It's not!
Killing grandma (or a child with a life-threatening disease) in an attempt to pay for the "bailout" of an bankrupt casino which was said to be a reputable state-of-the-art world monetary financial system is the issue. The trillions (tens or hundreds of trillions?) in debt are unpayable. The financiers are controlling conditions all over the planet to keep their usurious game going.
What we should be doing is to restart building up the physical economy again, not imposing austerity as the propagandists and controllers of popular opinion have steered us toward.
Mustering the political will is the challenge.
Mr McGowan - above is the argument put forward by Lyndon LaRouche and his organization.
It is clear for everyone to see and judge who is telling the truth here and who is lying.
In your post #27 above, you talk about yourself in the third person.
Do you commonly do this?
Or did one of the LaRouche organization's many propagandists pen that answer for you, hence the bizarre use of the third person?
Larouche Role in Obama Health Care plan - David Guyatt - 19-11-2009
Quote:D. Corroboration. McGowan pointed towards lots of it. McGowan can’t force you to consider it thoughtfully or discuss the history or more current reports or analyses presented there, especially in the video documentaries.
In other words LaRouche corroborates LaRouche.
Hmmm.
Since there is very considerable doubt about the veracity of the somewhat outlandish statements made by LaRouche in regard to the British NHS, when asking for substantiation (the word I used above) of his claims one would have expected to have been presented with exactly that. Not more LaRouche statements.
There is another fine point too concerning your definition of fascist. Sorry to pernickety, but the British National Health System is not a "Corporation" in the sense you mean (usually charaterized by limited liability, the issuance of shares and operating for profit). On the contrary, the NHS is taxpayer funded, is not for profit and a very great majority of Brits cherich it and despise the thought the business elites are trying to privatize it.
Ergo your argument that the word fascist means "Bullying by the corporate elite" does not fit pretty close at all.
Definition of substantiation by the Free Online Dictionary:
Quote:sub·stan·ti·ate (sb-stnsh-t)tr.v. sub·stan·ti·at·ed, sub·stan·ti·at·ing, sub·stan·ti·ates
1. To support with proof or evidence; verify: substantiate an accusation.
But I see this discussion is going to go exactly nowhere -- except in ever decreasing LaRouchian circles.
Larouche Role in Obama Health Care plan - Gary McGowan - 19-11-2009
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:. . .
It is clear for everyone to see and judge who is telling the truth here and who is lying.
In your post #27 above, you talk about yourself in the third person.
Do you commonly do this?
Or did one of the LaRouche organization's many propagandists pen that answer for you, hence the bizarre use of the third person?
Oh, good grief. In reply to the last, no, I don't usually do that. I was indulging myself. In Thai (language-culture, where I live), it's very common. Nobody penned it for me. I've never met a "LaRouchie," and I'm not in correspondence with any such creatures.
If you think someone here is lying, pray, say who, and about what. Why so coy? Stop speaking for "everyone" and speak for yourself.
But your comment here has reminded me of a possible mistake I made in trying to represent LaRouche's views. I said,
Quote:LaRouche and colleagues have never said nor intended to imply that the British NHS is an inherently fascist system. It's not!and then, after that, I was reviewing a video in which Debra Freeman, LaRouche's national spokeswoman, who is an epidemiologist, by the way--a medical professional, expressed her opinion of the NHS, which, while I don't recall hearing "fascist," wasn't held in very high regard; and she backed it up with comparative statistics. I'll dig for a minute or two here...
http://www.larouchepac.com/node/11473 about the 10 minute mark or thereabouts. Before that, she talks about her being interviewed by a BBC (?) female reporter which I find a delightfully amusing story.