Paul Schrade on second gunman in RFK shooting

[Ashley Wood]

"One can always try to pick apart one part of someone's position. It can be done as correction or as a way to try to make the entire belief system they have look as if it has fallen on its face."

I'm in agreement with much/most of what you said but having speed-read that chapter, Shane does reach the conclusion that those 3 guys aren't who he thought they were. I suspect that as a result of this, someone like the BBC won't touch this story again as the report on Newsnight (which blew my mind at the time) has essentially backfired. That is a big shame because this case clearly warrants serious re-investigation. I found Shane's book to be mostly excellent.
I wonder why Van Praag/Joplings book didn't seem to get published or become widely available. They had a website for it but the book never seemed to surface.

That has no impact on the rest of what you said which i largely agree with.
As far as the hypnosis/brainwashing issue, I struggle to find an adequate explanation for Sirhan's notebook scrawls for example without that coming into play. Also Dan Brown's work with him appears to back that up.
All the same, I hope Tom can come up with a documentary, book, essay or similar. I'm extremely interested in what he has to say.
I wonder if Sirhan is aware of Polka Dot Dress girl's death. Pepper seemed to suggest a while back that they thought they knew who she was and was still alive. Again, it'd be interesting to know if Bill Pepper and Tom agree on her identity and i also wonder why, if Bill Pepper was certain, why he didn't blow this case apart.
In the recent appeals, Kamala Harris seemed to suggest that even though the defence may have proved the second gun, Sirhan was still guilty and should stay in jail.
I must add that i am surprised that more researchers haven't looked at this case as it appears to be the most obvious miscarriage of the political assassinations from the 60's and RFK's friend Paul Schrade has long voiced his concern.
Hardly anyone in the JFK research community seems interested. I've often thought that this case leads back to Dallas and that's why RFK could not be allowed to become president. Of course I could be wrong.

Tom is there anything else you feel able to offer ?

BTW. i'm a care worker, musician and music researcher...i'd be somewhat out of my depth working on something like this before someone suggests I do some real investigating for myself !

[Peter Lemkin]

"One can always try to pick apart one part of someone's position. It can be done as correction or as a way to try to make the entire belief system they have look as if it has fallen on its face."

I'm in agreement with much/most of what you said but having speed-read that chapter, Shane does reach the conclusion that those 3 guys aren't who he thought they were. I suspect that as a result of this, someone like the BBC won't touch this story again as the report on Newsnight (which blew my mind at the time) has essentially backfired. That is a big shame because this case clearly warrants serious re-investigation. I found Shane's book to be mostly excellent.
I wonder why Van Praag/Joplings book didn't seem to get published or become widely available. They had a website for it but the book never seemed to surface.

That has no impact on the rest of what you said which i largely agree with.
As far as the hypnosis/brainwashing issue, I struggle to find an adequate explanation for Sirhan's notebook scrawls for example without that coming into play. Also Dan Brown's work with him appears to back that up.
All the same, I hope Tom can come up with a documentary, book, essay or similar. I'm extremely interested in what he has to say.
I wonder if Sirhan is aware of Polka Dot Dress girl's death. Pepper seemed to suggest a while back that they thought they knew who she was and was still alive. Again, it'd be interesting to know if Bill Pepper and Tom agree on her identity and i also wonder why, if Bill Pepper was certain, why he didn't blow this case apart.
In the recent appeals, Kamala Harris seemed to suggest that even though the defence may have proved the second gun, Sirhan was still guilty and should stay in jail.
I must add that i am surprised that more researchers haven't looked at this case as it appears to be the most obvious miscarriage of the political assassinations from the 60's and RFK's friend Paul Schrade has long voiced his concern.
Hardly anyone in the JFK research community seems interested. I've often thought that this case leads back to Dallas and that's why RFK could not be allowed to become president. Of course I could be wrong.

Tom is there anything else you feel able to offer ?

BTW. i'm a care worker, musician and music researcher...i'd be somewhat out of my depth working on something like this before someone suggests I do some real investigating for myself !

RFK's assassination is the easiest to 'crack', but there is no will to do so and lots of opposition to do so. MLK's is also quite easy to 'break'. JFK was the most complex - but they were all done by the same general set of entities for the same general reasons [along with the assassinations of hundreds of others]. Shane did a great job on his work, but I know there was intense 'fight-back' from the cover-up squad in CIA and others of that ilk. They may well have convinced him and others that what was correct was seemingly not. I don't rule out that they are not who he first thought and Ayers and Smith thought they were...but I think that that likely stands, whatever Shane has been railroaded into thinking at this point. I really don't care what the NYT, BBC or other MSM say or do, they are all controlled to some extent by the very intelligence creature that was behind these kinds of covert operations and are institutionally set up to not look where they are not supposed to nor present information that upsets certain issues of 'national security' lies. It is up to independent media and citizen activists. The government and its agencies/entities will never help solve these crimes they helped commit and/or cover-up. They can't and won't. They need to be removed and replaced, I don't believe they can be reformed. The system is rotten and getting more so by the hour.

I'm happy to hear Tom's thinking of how he comes to his conclusions. He has apparently been deeply involved in/with primary sources and important secondary ones. I did bristle at the conspiracy theorist remark for those who believe S.S. was subjected to some kind of mind-control and/or hypnosis. He obviously has a different take than I and most other researchers on RFK [to my knowledge]. Let the truth prevail, wherever it lies.

[Tracy Riddle]

Sirhan did not fire the fatal shots into RFK
Sirhan knew the Polka Dot Dress before the fatal night
FBI shot analysis is accurate
Evidence was compromised and changed by LAPD
LAPD had active CIA/Mafia Members
Guns in evidence were never destroyed but either sold or retained by Officers including H18603
Evidence in Sacramento has been substituted and cleansed
Cesar was paid money as late as 1981.

I do not believe mind control as detailed in most theories was performed. Sirhan's feelings for Polka Dot Dress were used to drive him into a jealous frenzy.
Too many people write books to make money and deliberately mislead the public with sensationalism and false conclusions.

I share my research with those who truly search for the truth.
I will not share it in open forums such as this.

I also wish you would share your research with us, Tom.

[Peter Lemkin]

"One can always try to pick apart one part of someone's position. It can be done as correction or as a way to try to make the entire belief system they have look as if it has fallen on its face."

I'm in agreement with much/most of what you said but having speed-read that chapter, Shane does reach the conclusion that those 3 guys aren't who he thought they were. I suspect that as a result of this, someone like the BBC won't touch this story again as the report on Newsnight (which blew my mind at the time) has essentially backfired. That is a big shame because this case clearly warrants serious re-investigation. I found Shane's book to be mostly excellent.
I wonder why Van Praag/Joplings book didn't seem to get published or become widely available. They had a website for it but the book never seemed to surface.

That has no impact on the rest of what you said which i largely agree with.
As far as the hypnosis/brainwashing issue, I struggle to find an adequate explanation for Sirhan's notebook scrawls for example without that coming into play. Also Dan Brown's work with him appears to back that up.
All the same, I hope Tom can come up with a documentary, book, essay or similar. I'm extremely interested in what he has to say.
I wonder if Sirhan is aware of Polka Dot Dress girl's death. Pepper seemed to suggest a while back that they thought they knew who she was and was still alive. Again, it'd be interesting to know if Bill Pepper and Tom agree on her identity and i also wonder why, if Bill Pepper was certain, why he didn't blow this case apart.
In the recent appeals, Kamala Harris seemed to suggest that even though the defence may have proved the second gun, Sirhan was still guilty and should stay in jail.
I must add that i am surprised that more researchers haven't looked at this case as it appears to be the most obvious miscarriage of the political assassinations from the 60's and RFK's friend Paul Schrade has long voiced his concern.
Hardly anyone in the JFK research community seems interested. I've often thought that this case leads back to Dallas and that's why RFK could not be allowed to become president. Of course I could be wrong.

Tom is there anything else you feel able to offer ?

BTW. i'm a care worker, musician and music researcher...i'd be somewhat out of my depth working on something like this before someone suggests I do some real investigating for myself !

RFK's assassination is the easiest to 'crack', but there is no will to do so and lots of opposition to do so. MLK's is also quite easy to 'break'. JFK was the most complex - but they were all done by the same general set of entities for the same general reasons [along with the assassinations of hundreds of others]. Shane did a great job on his work, but I know there was intense 'fight-back' from the cover-up squad in CIA and others of that ilk. They may well have convinced him and others that what was correct was seemingly not. I don't rule out that they are not who he first thought and Ayers and Smith thought they were...but I think that that likely stands, whatever Shane has been railroaded into thinking at this point. I really don't care what the NYT, BBC or other MSM say or do, they are all controlled to some extent by the very intelligence creature that was behind these kinds of covert operations and are institutionally set up to not look where they are not supposed to nor present information that upsets certain issues of 'national security' lies. It is up to independent media and citizen activists. The government and its agencies/entities will never help solve these crimes they helped commit and/or cover-up. They can't and won't. They need to be removed and replaced, I don't believe they can be reformed. The system is rotten and getting more so by the hour.

I'm happy to hear Tom's thinking of how he comes to his conclusions. He has apparently been deeply involved in/with primary sources and important secondary ones. I did bristle at the conspiracy theorist remark for those who believe S.S. was subjected to some kind of mind-control and/or hypnosis. He obviously has a different take than I and most other researchers on RFK [to my knowledge]. Let the truth prevail, wherever it lies.

This forum is open and welcoming to researchers and those who are simply interested - and all those in between. Even an expert researcher on one or several topics is a novice on others, and we all started out as naive on any of this. We all learn more as we go along. Having studied many covert operations and assassinations, et al. I don't find the 'simplicity' is the best solution argument as convincing. These were all made to be too complex to untangle/resolve/be revealed truthfully. We have done yeoman's work to get as far as we have. The problem is with our information we still can't much effect change and accountability because the bad guys still basically run the country/polity/culture they have subverted over and over again. IMHO

[Tom Bowden]

I agree...let truth prevail.
As I stated Sirhan was motivated by jealously and it was taken advantage of by the people you see as programming him. One should look at Sirhan's background and upbringing. Specifically the Palestinian thought process. I have some experience in the use of mind programming as I was an active participant in sleep teaching during college and later on involved with new drug submissions to the FDA. I was at Sandoz the day LSD was not approved by the FDA. My primary problem with programming as discussed in this forum is the time lapse between then and now. Sirhan's memory should have reset in this timeframe.

I would also add that I had in depth discussions with many people and not just a meeting at some lecture. I spent many hours with Adele and other family members.

I would hope that Dr. Pepper is successful in getting a new trial and do not chose to introduce anything at this point to jeopardize his chances. If he fails, I will be in touch with Sirhan again.

I have documented my thoughts and they will be available at the right time.

Let truth prevail.

[Lauren Johnson]

Specifically the Palestinian thought process.

::

Tom, it seems to me that you are still agreeing that the same forces that killed JFK also were behind RFK's murder. Correct?

[Peter Lemkin]

I agree...let truth prevail.
As I stated Sirhan was motivated by jealously and it was taken advantage of by the people you see as programming him. One should look at Sirhan's background and upbringing. Specifically the Palestinian thought process. I have some experience in the use of mind programming as I was an active participant in sleep teaching during college and later on involved with new drug submissions to the FDA. I was at Sandoz the day LSD was not approved by the FDA. My primary problem with programming as discussed in this forum is the time lapse between then and now. Sirhan's memory should have reset in this timeframe.

I would also add that I had in depth discussions with many people and not just a meeting at some lecture. I spent many hours with Adele and other family members.

I would hope that Dr. Pepper is successful in getting a new trial and do not chose to introduce anything at this point to jeopardize his chances. If he fails, I will be in touch with Sirhan again.

I have documented my thoughts and they will be available at the right time.

Let truth prevail.

Well, that tells us nothing new of how you get from A to Z. If he was jealous, how in the world would he think or imagine that RFK was his 'rival'. And you agree that there was a second gun, so are you saying the CIA chose a jealous person to turn them into a 'jealous Manchurian candidate'. It doesn't add up. You don't say, but I surmise you see him as a patsy manipulated by larger conspiratorial forces, but you don't make any logical connection I can see. Anyone can state they have the answer to the meaning of life or infinite production of free energy or the key to the RFK case, but will only be able to reveal the answers at the 'right time'. You would have us believe you have something so strong and powerful you know it could jeopardize Sirhan's chances of a new trial? Color me skeptical. I hope you tell Pepper your secrets so he can use what he needs if he needs, since we are apparently not worthy of that.

[Tracy Riddle]

The question is, was Sirhan picked as the patsy because he was a Palestinian or because he was easy to hypnotize? Or both? I think most of us agree that Oswald was chosen because he could plausibly be portrayed as a pro-Castro Communist sympathizer, former defector, Marine-trained sniper, etc.

Sirhan is a different case. He was constantly seen with other Arab-looking men, plus the Polka Dot Dress girl, who sounds somewhat Arab-looking (maybe Egyptian or Lebanese). Was someone manipulating a radical Palestinian group to take the blame for killing a US Senator? Who would want to do that? Let's look at the geopolitical situation of the time.

A year earlier (June 1967), Israel (with US connivance) had trounced the Arabs in the 6 Day War. The USS Liberty false flag attempt almost pulled the US into attacking Egypt and retaking the Suez Canal. We see here that elements within Israel and the US government were willing to attack an American target to achieve larger strategic goals. In the early 1950s, the Lavon Affair revealed again that Israel was willing to attack US and British targets (again to blame Egypt).

LBJ was extremely pro-Israel, as was the CIA's James Angleton (Beginning in 1951, Angleton was responsible for liaison with Israel's Mossad and Shin Bet agencies, "the Israeli desk", crucial relationships that he managed for the remainder of his career. - Wikipedia). There are two monuments to Angleton in Israel. By March 1968, Israel was in open combat with Palestinian groups like Fatah. Wikipedia again:

On the night of 21 March, the IDF attacked Karameh with heavy weaponry, armored vehicles and fighter jets.[SUP][16][/SUP] Fatah held its ground, surprising the Israeli military. As Israel's forces intensified their campaign, the Jordanian Army became involved, causing the Israelis to retreat in order to avoid a full-scale war.[SUP][19][/SUP] By the end of the battle, nearly 150 Fatah militants had been killed, as well as twenty Jordanian soldiers and twenty-eight Israeli soldiers. Despite the higher Arab death toll, Fatah considered themselves victorious because of the Israeli army's rapid withdrawal.[SUP][size=12][16]

[size=12]At this time, RFK was a Senator from New York representing a large Jewish constituency. We know that JFK had some strained relations with Israel (trying to prevent them from building a nuclear weapon). Despite RFK's desire to support oppressed minorities around the world, politically he had to support selling weapons to Israel. It was a fine line to walk, as many Democratic politicians know.

I'm doing a lot of speculating, but I can see a confluence of interests (CIA, international organized crime, Mossad and others), elements of which wanted to keep RFK from becoming President, hoped to turn US public opinion against the Arabs, and stimulate more US aid to Israel. This is almost 50 years ago, and the Arab-Israeli conflict was barely on most Americans' radar.

As with the JFK assassination, though, other elements in the power structure squashed the whole thing and went with the "lone nut" story instead.
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[R.K. Locke]

This thread got weird very quickly.

[Tracy Riddle]

With most researchers, this case always runs into the dead end of "Well, I guess it was the same forces who murdered his brother" and then stops there. Which doesn't help us to answer a lot of important questions.