Something to Think About

[Bob Prudhomme]

Here is something to think about. How many times in a 50 year period does the following happen in the space of a minute?

1. The POTUS goes by the TSBD in a limo.
2. Three rifle shots are heard in Dealey Plaza.
3. A uniformed, white helmeted motorcycle cop roars up to the curb, hops off his motorcycle and goes tearing up the steps of the TSBD.

Kind of a semi-memorable moment in time, no?

Let's assume Pauline Sanders actually did see Baker go up the steps, as the FBI stated she did in their report of 24/11/63.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce1434.htm

As she seems to be the only witness on the steps who saw Baker, do you think she just calmly said to herself "Oh my, well, you certainly don't see that every day" and quietly went back to her desk? I hardly think so. If she was anything like the women I know, she would have shared this strange sighting with her neighbours on the steps (which included Molina and Frazier) and everyone on the steps would have been talking about the cop running into the building within 30 seconds; where he was going, why he ran into the building, was it connected to the shots they heard, etc.

When Joe Molina and Buell Wesley Frazier were asked, at their appearance before the WC, if they had seen Baker enter the TSBD, don't you think it likely they might have at least offered "Well, I never actually saw the cop myself, but Pauline Sanders saw him, and everybody on the steps was talkin' about him within the next minute or so."


It's not like the group on the steps of the TSBD were not a friendly, affable bunch that didn't speak to each other. According to Buell Wesley Frazier's WC testimony, they were all chatting quite amiably before the arrival of JFK.

"Mr. BALL - Did you go out there with somebody?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL - Who did you go out there with?
Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.
Mr. BALL - And it turned out to be a good day?
Mr. FRAZIER - Pretty sunshiny day.
Mr. BALL - Warm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.
Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there."

So, this friendly old bunch was just talking and talking about what a pretty day it was, but three shots ring out at the POTUS, a white helmeted cop runs through their midst, and everyone on the steps doesn't know about the cop within a minute???

[Drew Phipps]

Bob, there are two factors of which I am quite familiar which might play into the calculus of why the cops didn't document evidence of a conversation between witnesses: A) it's hearsay and as such isn't directly admissible as evidence in a US court of law (hah hah, please forgive the implied second "cross 49th parallel" humorous dig in as many days, but I really don't know if Canada follows the English common law), and B) cops' primary investigative focus is on first hand information, who and what they perceived, not what other witnesses told them. ("Just the facts, ma'am," to borrow a phrase)

I've had innumerable occasions in the last 25 years where an actual post-police-statement interview with a witness yielded a wealth of extra details not in the report, including inconsistent statements, prior consistent statements, bias, gossip, family history, reputation, etc., which is what makes those interviews so valuable.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Bob, there are two factors of which I am quite familiar which might play into the calculus of why the cops didn't document evidence of a conversation between witnesses: A) it's hearsay and as such isn't directly admissible as evidence in a US court of law (hah hah, please forgive the implied second "cross 49th parallel" humorous dig in as many days, but I really don't know if Canada follows the English common law), and B) cops' primary investigative focus is on first hand information, who and what they perceived, not what other witnesses told them. ("Just the facts, ma'am," to borrow a phrase)

I've had innumerable occasions in the last 25 years where an actual post-police-statement interview with a witness yielded a wealth of extra details not in the report, including inconsistent statements, prior consistent statements, bias, gossip, family history, reputation, etc., which is what makes those interviews so valuable.

Well, perhaps you should read the last part of Pauline Sanders' "statement", which contains nothing but hearsay.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce1434.htm

When giving their testimony to the WC, I would assume everything Molina and Frazier said would have gone into the record, be it hearsay or not. Are you suggesting anything that was hearsay would have been erased from their testimony?

[Drew Phipps]

Since that part of her statement strikes you as noteworthy, don't you then agree with me?

[Bob Prudhomme]

Since that part of her statement strikes you as noteworthy, don't you then agree with me?

Not quite, Drew. I pointed out that part of her "statement" to show investigators were not above including hearsay in their evidence.

The main point I was trying to make is that, even if Pauline Sanders was, miraculously, the only witness on the steps to see Baker run up the steps, 15-22 seconds after the last shot, and into the TSBD, the event would have been so unusual that I cannot see Sanders NOT discussing it with her fellow employees standing beside her.

Frazier and Molina were pressed rather hard by WC counsel regarding the sighting of Baker and, being the cooperative people of their time, I'm sure they would have offered any bit of information they thought might have been helpful, such as Sanders seeing Baker and telling everyone else on the steps about it.

[Alan Ford]

You are certainly onto something here, Mr. Prudhomme, as it wouldn't be unusual for at least a few others to recall his presence (either directly or indirectly via hearing Mrs. Sanders sharing her unique experience with her fellow coworkers). Given the crowded, close quarters upon those stairs, it does seem rather odd that others didn't recall being ushered aside in his haste to gain way into the building. Of course, like so much in this case, others may have actually recalled his presence in their initial statements, but simply signed off on something, or verbally agreed to a watered down "officialdom-scale" of the unfolding events, which would help preserve the next floor up as the place where Officer Baker encounters the wrongfully accused, rather than someone recalling otherwise.

Of course, given that the FBI manufactured, err, went with her version that he indeed went up those steps, lest we forget these are the same people who demanded that a Minox spy camera be scaled back to a mere light meter. Given the Hoover-henchmen's propensity for fake money orders, dual discoveries of CE399's, choose a stretcher location & shape of the bullet, etc., it's difficult to keep up with what they say happened as oppose to what really happened.

For instance, Here we have Buell Wesley Frazier trying to get as far away from the figure to his right as possible by lying about his precise whereabouts:

Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there."

Yet in actuality he is standing well above his stated position...lots of CYA dynamics going on here with officialdom rendering controlled "evidence" to arrive at a desired outcome, while both the aforementioned Mr. Frazier and Bill "I'm no Honest Abe" Shelley desperately either getting as far away from we know who or insinuating he is LV.

Of course, if Officer Baker didn't go up those stairs, the FBI's timeline would have to contend with him running towards the Dal-Tex and then down the side of the TSBD to a rear entrance before climbing two floors to encounter the wrongfully accused in the 2nd floor break room (a world class Olympic gold medalist sprinter couldn't pull that off in 90 seconds, given the throng of people he/she would have to contend with amid the ensuing chaos) thus...we are back to Pauline Sanders...

[Albert Doyle]

There are certain people like Shelley and Frazier who might see it as in their interest to not volunteer any information.

Was it Shelley who said he saw Truly and Baker standing at the bottom of the steps looking like they were intending to go in?

[Alan Ford]

Pretty bizarre that someone in uniform, wearing insignia and a badge, a person easily recognizable as someone of authority, in a gleaming white helmet no less, could have gone virtually unnoticed save for the FBI's selection of Mrs. Sanders. The roar of his motorcycle upon the curb alone warranted attention, his dismount from the same warranted attention, his frantic pace, tearing off at break neck speed towards the TSBD warranted attention, yet we are led to believe he and Casper the Friendly ghost share the same bloodline, disappearing and appearing at will.

Officialdom once again decides what happened as oppose to what really happened. What if Officer Baker's movements simply caught the real culprits off guard, leaving them little choice but to weave his sudden, unpredictable actions into a revamped scene of events? Did Oswald, unbeknownst to his handler(s) step out front at the last second much to their horror instead of watching from a pre-designated position as instructed?, further complicating the matter...leading to revamped affidavits, a hand held already opened Coke, sitting at a table, then changed to standing, etc., etc :hock:: ...unlike the truth, these lying treasonous cowards need constant do overs like a lie needs another lie...

[Drew Phipps]

You guys might be reading a bit too much into this. Everyone's attention was on the motorcade as it passed by. The shocking sound of shots would have had most people looking away down Elm St. Not to mention wondering where the next shots might strike. And there were many police officers present in Dealy Plaza; ubiquitous, like fishermen on a pier, waiters in a restaurant, or utility workers near orange traffic cones.

Most people that were alive then can tell you what they were doing when they learned that JFK was shot. But how many people can tell you where they were the very next occasion that they saw a police officer?

[Alan Ford]

Yes, agreed, Mr. Phipps, that one's initial reaction is usually governed by self-preservation in these types of incidences, no doubts; however, with preservation in mind it begs the question how could so many people--clumped so close together in a narrow space--overlook the presence of someone offering at least assurance that whatever the ordeal may be I'm here to "serve and protect"?

If Officer Baker actually navigated those steps, it's little doubt he would have had to voice his presence at some point, barking orders while maneuvering innocent bystanders aside to clear a path (not sure about most people, but if I hear someone in authority trying to make headway by using his voice and hands to navigate his/her way through a crowd I'm in, I'm going to recognize the urgency in his/her tone, touch and the manner in which s/he engages me and the others under those conditions). Those small, telling details remain with people long after the bigger picture has been framed.

IMHO if Officer Baker charged up those stairs at the front entrance, those charged with investigating that particular instance would have little choice but to control the outcome by steering focus away from that event/time & space, especially if to pursue the matter would prompt more than a few people to recall the presence of someone jeopardizing the "official' version of events.

If he simply continued to run past the stairs towards the Dal-Tex, then officialdom would have an even harder time placing him in the 2nd floor lunchroom in a time that enhances their timeline of events. Something about all of this strongly suggests some improvisation had to be worked into their pre-arranged timeline.

IMHO the wrongfully accused had to be placed upon the 2nd floor (better he was scripted in flight mode amid a hasty getaway than actually sipping a Coke cool as a cucumber down on the first floor entrance landing).