LBJ refers to both Diem's brother's assassination as hiring a "bunch of thugs," there was no one I know of who just been allowed back into the United States from France just after getting out of the French Foreign Legion who from the beginning wanted to kill, and kill he did. He had to make himself this tough guy as Tony says. He was the CIA's asset, but, he also turned on the CIA in the end, and I prove this.
Perhaps, I should also mention that when my mother was seven months pregnant with me, my father was nowhere to be found for days at a time according to my mother. He didn't even drive my mother to go see her doctor when she needed to, then, he magically appears around midnight at the home we were all staying at in Norwalk Conn on 11/22/1963. He then takes off again to film Kennedy's funeral.
I have been studying this whole Vietnam angle for about 20 years.
This includes documents and essays and books.
If you read Newman's masterful book, you will see that what Mansfield's report did was to convince Kennedy that the boost in advisors did not work. Therefore, nothing short of direct American intervention would help, which is what people like Halberstam and Jean Paul Vann wanted. But which Kennedy was not going to do. In fact, Mansfield later said that Kennedy told him in confidence after his report was submitted, that he was going to begin a withdrawal program within the year. (Newman, p. 324)
What you are talking about, the attempt to remove Diem, that was actually traced to the Battle of Ap Bac. Which happened in January of 1963. Military advisor Jean Paul Vann was involved in this, and State Department officers Hilsman and Forrestal were in country when it happened. (Newman, pgs. 302-05) That battle was important since the the ARVN had every single advantage over the Viet Cong. But they still lost, and it was not really close. This convinced Vann that the only way Saigon could win was with American combat troops. It convinced Forrestal and Hilsman that Diem was not the man to win the war. And that was reinforced by the outbreak of the Buddhist crisis in Hue in April of 1963. (ibid, p.332)
Have you read Newman's book?
Nicely written, well thought-out, and no. I have not read Newsman's book, my apologizes for not countering your request of me carrying on regarding Mansfield, I was at lost debating with Tom that I loss my place, forgive me.
Please allow me to correct Mr. Newman and Jim with facts, I understand Jim has invested 20 years of research in Vietnam, but, let the facts speak for themselves shall we?
From the Foregin Relations of the United States, 1961-1963, Volume II, Vietnam, 1962 Senator Mansfield's visit to Vietnam and subsequent report; visits and reports by Johnson and Heavner December 1962.
323 Memorandum of conversation:
Saigon, December 1, 1962, 11:30 a.m.
Source: Department of State, Vietnam Working Group Files: Lot 66 D 193, 22.1.Mansfield Visit to Saigon. Confidential. No drafting or clearance information is given on the source text, which is apparently a draft as it contains numerous handwritten corrections. The meeting was held at Gia Long Palace. On October 18 Kennedy had written Mansfield asking him to [lead] a bipartisan group of Senators to visit Berlin, Vietnam, and Southeast Asia to review the situation and U.S. policies in these areas. (University of Montana Library, Mansfield Papers, Series XXII, Box 95, Folder 13) The Senators left Washington on November 7 and returned December 17.
After now correcting the facts for history, I will also expose Kennedy's assassins, and everyone who participated in the assassination and why Watergate HAD to happen, what it was truly about. Mark my words, I will expose both Kennedy's assassination and Watergate fully, and there will never be another book regarding my father, his involvement and associates. This is the truth.
The party arrived at Gia Long Palace at 11:30 a.m. Senator Mansfield expressed the group's pleasure at being able to visit Mr. Nhu. He noted that the Ambassador and President Diem had already briefed the Senators on the Strategic Hamlet program, and that the party had just visited National Assembly President Truong Vinh Le and Vice President Nguyen Ngoc Tho.2 Senator Mansfield asked when the Strategic Hamlet program was likely to be completed. Mr. Nhu said that three years from now was the target date for complete implementation of the Strategic Hamlet program. Two thirds of the population will be living in Strategic Hamlets by January 1, 1963. The political, social, economic, and military revolution involved in the program would not be complete for three years, however. Ambassador Nolting noted that, while speed was important in implementing the program, thoroughness was also essential. Senator Pell asked Mr. Nhu to explain the over-all Strategic Hamlet concept and its long-range goals. Mr. Nhu said the concept was intended to be a positive contribution to international strategy in the anti-Communist struggle. Subversion is the principal Communist strategy on the international level, and Viet Nam's contribution is to develop a means of countering subversion. As long as the Communists are able to engage in subversive war, the free world cannot negotiate with them, because the Communists will not negotiate in good faith. The war here may be won militarily, but so long as the Communist[Page 751]Bloc retains the capability of waging subversive war, any free world victories will not be definite. By destroying the Communist's subversive capability, we will be placing them in the strategic deadlock in which we presently find ourselves. Senator Mansfield noted that we were thus trying to turn the tables on the Communists. Mr. Nhu stated that neither the Communists nor the free world wants a conventional war at this time. The Communists thus have an element of superiority in being able to wage subversive war, and it is not in their interest to negotiate. They will negotiate sincerely only when they are convinced they will not win by subversion. This is the perspective in which the strategic hamlet program should be seen. Mr. Nhu noted that underdevelopment in Viet Nam has three aspects: 1) a feeling of humiliation, 2) a disunity of minds, resulting in contradictory forces, and 3) Communist subversion. To combat the problem of underdevelopment there are two great historical forces, one tending toward centralization, the other toward fragmentation. The history of underdeveloped countries in the last fifteen years shows that the tendency toward concentration and centralization has predominated. All governments in underdeveloped countries that have tried democracy have been overthrown and replaced by military regimes. The backward nations have used only one of the great historical forces presently at work, concentration. Mr. Nhusaid he had developed the idea that Viet Nam could make use of both of these forces, authoritarianism and democracy, to combat underdevelopment. He compared these forces to positive and negative electrical currents, which produce thunder, fire, and death, when not harmonized. If we can harness these forces, however, we can provoke not destruction but power. The device for accomplishing this is the strategic hamlet. It attempts to exploit the war in Viet Nam for progress and democracy. This is contrary to history, but Viet Nam is trying to prove history wrong. Thanks to the war, the peasants recognize the usefulness of the strategic hamlet in providing them security. Security, however, is but one consequence of the social and political revolution contained in the strategic hamlet philosophy. If there is no such revolution in Laos, Thailand or Cambodia, these nations will not be able to fight Communism or to make progress. The international proletariat of underdeveloped countries, and Communist subversion, have upset the classical norms of economic development. A more dialectical concept is needed. Most Afro-Asian countries choose neutrality in order not to be subject to pressures from East or West. Because of their distance from the West, they enjoy the [Page 752]indulgence of the Communists, but they still cannot achieve economic progress. Cambodia and Laos, for example, should wage an economic social, and political revolution. Senator Pell asked whether land reform was necessary in Cambodia. Mr. Nhu said that it was necessary, for each man should have his own property. Viet Nam has supported land reform with land development and agricultural credit programs. 87% of the population in Viet Nam is rural; this is the usual ratio for underdeveloped countries. However, this segment of the population enjoys only l/a of the national production, and this gives rise to a feeling of injustice. With the Strategic Hamlets, we hope to be able to reverse this ratio. The West pays too much attention to winning the sympathy of the population, and not enough to organizing it. If the population is not organized, the Communists will be able to mobilize it against the government overnight. In Cambodia, for instance, the Communists could foment a rebellion at will, because the population is not organized. This would not be done only by political propaganda. In 1954, after the Geneva Agreements, the Communists regrouped 135,000 people to North Vietnam, and 10,000 of these were Cambodians. With this 10,000, they can blackmail 10,000 families, and can infiltrate agents into Cambodia whenever they wish. This is how the problem started in Vietnam. It is impossible to combat Communist subversion with the personal popularity of the leadership. President Diem, for instance, was elected by the whole people, but the government is still subject to a subversive war. Senator Mansfield noted that the President had explained this concept in theory to the group yesterday. The Senator stated that the relationship between our countries is excellent, but that occasionally people in the United States read about difficulties with the Western, and especially the United States, press. He said he was raising this question not only from a personal point of view but also from a Congressional standpoint. Some things that happen here create an unfavorable reaction in the United States. The Senator asked whether something could not be done about this problem, bearing in mind security and mutual respect, because it is a serious problem, and really the only one between the two countries. He said that he was asking this in the friendliest spirit. Mr. Nhu said he was glad that Senator Mansfield had raised this question, as he was concerned with the problem as a part of global strategy. The free world is not adapted to subversive war in all fields. The Western press, especially the American press, is not adapted to [Page 753]subversive war, and lags in the world evolutionary process. For example, American newspaper correspondents in Vietnam are very young and inexperienced Mr. Nhu stated that he had seen Mr. Crawford, a Newsweek editor, recently and had talked to him in the same vein. Mr. Crawford had asked him why the things he was saying were not known in the United States. Senator Mansfield asked if these things were new to Mr. Crawford. Mr. Nhu said that Mr. Crawford had told him that he had talked to the American Embassy before he called, but that Mr.Nhu's remarks went far beyond anything he had heard. Mr. Nhu said he had told Mr. Crawford that he understood it was difficult for the United States press to send high level correspondents to Viet Nam. However, newsmen must meet minimum standards of intellect and of emotion in order to grasp the problems in Vietnam. In the case of Vietnam, in addition to Communist infiltration, there exists infiltration from other countries who have interests contrary to those of Vietnam. Vietnam is a former colony, and a certain class of people were left behind after independence who remained attached to colonialism. This class has lost its privileges as the go between for the colonialists and the Vietnamese people. As former landowners, they are the victims of agrarian reform, and therefore discontent. Because they know how to speak foreign languages, they find it possible to communicate with foreigners. The Ambassador explained that Mr. Nhu was referring to the tendency of foreign correspondents to get their views from French and English speaking Vietnamese, who sometimes provide a distorted view. Mr. Nhu noted that "our French friends" believe they have been replaced by the Americans, and are dissatisfied. Before the Strategic Hamlet program, Mr. Nhu stated, there was great discontent in the Vietnamese countryside. Under the pressure of Communist subversion, the army was not capable of protecting the population. Military operations fell into a vacuum because the Army was not helped by the population. The people were dissatisfied with the army, troops were dissatisfied with their officers, and far from protecting the people, the army created popular discontent. Senator Boggs asked Mr. Nhu to describe the reaction in North Vietnam to the economic and social progress being made in the Republic of Vietnam. Mr. Nhu said that the North Vietnamese reaction was to seek a method of countering this progress, but that up to now they had not found an adequate one. He said that his objective was not to break the natural process of Communism, but rather to exploit it. The enemy is thus placed in an impasse. The Strategic Hamlets are a point of attraction for VC troops. Traditional in Asia, leaders have been afraid of [Page 754]remote regions, because distance can foster dissidence. The Strategic Hamlets will attract Communist troops and they will abandon their leaders. Mr. Nhu compared this tendency to the tendency of the Chinese who migrated to California to implant themselves there and forget their origins. Mr. Nhu noted that the Laotian settlement failed to exploit this tendency, because Laotian neutrality, which is really pro-Communist neutrality, is destroying the hope of eventually liberating North Vietnam. Senator Mansfield pointed out that there was a difference in the Laotian and Vietnamese problems because the Laotians would not fight. Mr. Nhu stated that this was because they do not know how to fight a subversive war. SenatorMansfield observed that the United States had spent 400 million dollars in Laos to help them fight. Mr. Nhu said that they had not been organized and thus did not know how to fight. Senator Mansfield said that the pro-Western Laotians had only shot their guns into the air, and that the Pathet Lao must have been stiffened by North Vietnamese, and even Chinese, soldiers. Mr. Nhu asked why we had not sent our own cadres to stiffen Gen. Phoumi's troops. Senator Mansfieldasked if this had ever been suggested. Mr. Nhu said he had suggested it to Governor Harriman and to the French. He went on to say that if, in foreign policy, we say we accept the facts, that means we refuse to break the balance of forces. But we must break the balance of forces if it is not in our favor. One year ago, the balance was against us, but Mr. Nhu would not accept the facts and refused to believe the Laotians would not fight. In Vietnam too, before, to [the?] Strategic Hamlets, the people did not want to fight. As he said earlier, the population was against the soldiers, the soldiers were against the generals, the generals were against the government, and the government was dissatisfied with United States effectiveness. This general dissatisfaction prompted Mr. Nhu to develop the Strategic Hamlet program. Senator Mansfield noted that Mr. Nhu had said he was dissatisfied with United States aid. The Senator noted that we had sent our best generals to Vietnam, and asked what had been wrong. Mr. Nhu said that what he had meant was that when the situation was bad, everyone blames his neighbor. He said he had refused to accept these dissatisfactions, and had thought something else was wrong. What had been needed was a master plan corresponding to the requirements of an underdeveloped country in the Twentieth Century. Senator Mansfield asked if he had found it in the Strategic Hamlet plan. Mr. Nhu said that the Strategic Hamlet plan was only one element. He said that it must be considered in the context a) of Vietnamese history, b) of the historic movement of underdeveloped countries, c) of General Taylor's visit, and d) of men in the modern [Page 755]world. It was part of a new kind of humanism. The freedom which one acquires oneself is more precious than the freedom that is given by Santa Claus. There has been a tremendous enthusiasm arising in the countryside during the last month. Mr. Nhu said he did not reproach the United States press for ignoring this popular movement, but he did notice that the press was not up to date. Senator Mansfield asked if this was just the American press. Mr. Nhu said that the American press is the most powerful. He said that his ambition was to bring a positive contribution to the United States, which is the leader of the free world. United States strategy leans on regional organizations, but is weak in underdeveloped areas. These areas have been a dead weight so far for the United States and have made no contribution. Mr. Nhu said that if we succeed in our experiment here, it will be very valuable for all other countries. The Ambassador said, with respect to the press, that there was always a time lag in reporting. He said he tries every day to explain to the press how things are moving in Vietnam. One mark of the journalist, however, is skepticism toward government releases. The journalist wants to go out and see for himself. If he sees that the government is applying pressure on the people, he compares this with the government's own statements. The Ambassador asked again that there not be a severe reaction to unfavorable stories, as this only increases the skepticism of the press and makes our mutual task more difficult. Mr. Nhu said that we must not concentrate so much on this question because the American people have a good sense of fair play. Once they recognize their mistakes they change their attitude. For a powerful country such as the United States, opposition to the press is nothing. For a small, poor country at war, like Vietnam, there is great popular sensitivity. Mr. Nhu said that the Vietnamese are conducting an impassioned war, not subject to reason. There are only 14 million South Vietnamese fighting against international communism, represented by 650 million Chinese. Vietnam has been fighting 23 years for subjective reasons. Its passion must be respected as that is all it has left. He said that he thought the attitude of the American press had changed, because the Americans have a high respect for those who are willing to fight. The Vietnamese are proud to fight, and want to be proud of their friends. He said that the United States reaction to the Cuba situation had made the Vietnamese proud. Senator Mansfield said that we were very pleased to hear this. Mr. Nhu continued that the Vietnamese had been humiliated, however, by the United States policy in Laos and Cambodia. [Page 756]Senator Smith asked Mr. Nhu to describe the background of the Cambodian and Laotian problems, and to estimate how long they would last. Mr.Nhu said that when the United States found an adequate solution for subversive war, we would win. So long as we have no solution, we will be humiliated. Relationships between Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia include United States involvement as a factor. What the Communists are seeking in Laos and Cambodia is to weaken Vietnam and to drive the Americans out. That is all. They accomplished this in Laos and Cambodia and are trying to do it in Vietnam. The Ambassador said that they had not done it yet in Cambodia. Mr. Nhu said that Cambodia had asked that the MAAG withdraw. The Ambassador noted that this had not yet been done, and that the problem was very delicate. Mr. Nhu said that both Souvanna and Sihanouk realize that their value lies in their distance from the U.S. If they were committed to the U.S., they would lose their value. By leaning toward the Chinese Communists, they retain their position with the U.S., but if they aligned themselves with the U.S. they would be despised. They have a means of pressure on the U.S., but the U.S. has no means of pressure on them. The Ambassador asked whether Mr. Nhu thought Prince Sihanouk would like to see North Vietnam take over South Vietnam. Mr. Nhu said that Sihanouk hates North Vietnam. There are two elements in his policy: 1) the conviction that communism is the wave of the future, and 2) the desire to retain his bargaining position with the U.S. He takes advantage of the fact that America has no means of pressure on him. If we develop a theory of subversive war, and can wage it ourselves, we will have a means of pressure on him. Mr. Nhu continued that in the meantime, America should not drop its existing friends for potential friends. Sihanouk and Souvanna are not friends of America. America has a firm friend here in South Vietnam, and must not sacrifice it for the sake of those who will never be America's friends. If the Communist Chinese come to Southeast Asia, Vietnam will fight them. The Vietnamese would like to fight the Chinese, and there are elements in North Vietnam that would support such a war. At this point the meeting broke up. The Ambassador asked Mr. Nhu, after the meeting, for clarification on one point. Had Mr. Crawford of Newsweek magazine said that he had not understood our explanation of the situation in Vietnam? Mr.Nhu said that Mr. Crawford had understood it, but that he, Mr. Nhu, had clarified his understanding of the problem. [Page 757]On leaving, Senator Mansfield thanked Mr. Nhu for being so frank and direct. Mr. Nhu said that his frankness was an expression of Vietnamese friendship for the United States, and added that America is Vietnam's only friend in the world.
Memoranda of these conversations are ibid., Folder 8.
Quote:Mansfield later said that Kennedy told him in confidence after his report was submitted, that he was going to begin a withdrawal program within the year. (Newman, p. 324)
My apologies Jim, I was again getting ahead of myself. I do believe this was the core of our debate as you believed it was the report from Galbraith that led Kennedy to consider troop withdrawal, and I said it was Mansfield, you've posted information that I'm now reading clearer, I suppose my blood was boiling at first because we were both eager to argue over who was right when it came to whose report Kennedy considered, but, this is water under the bridge now. And, why should I rub salt on an old wound?
And yes, I was talking about the attempt to move the Diem brothers out of VN, however, that was never going to happen. Some folks may even begin to wonder where I get my information from? Let's just say that I have some friends in high places too. Also, Dawn, please note that I'm not at all engaging in any disrespectful conversation with you or anyone, and if you believe this is the wrong forum for me to post in and wish I leave, please say so, otherwise, because it is an assassination and Watergate forum, I shall continue to post information I believe no one knows, and when someone finds the information I've posted then and only then will you have one of those ah ha moments even if I'm asked to back it up, I will.
27-06-2016, 04:24 PM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2016, 07:52 PM by Scott Kaiser.)
[FONT=&]1.) Mendenhall also compiles a set of options the Kennedy administration can take in support of a coup aimed at the Diem government. Note that he mentions providing money or other "inducements" to Vietnamese to join in the plot. The CIA would actually provide $42,000 to the coup plotters during the coup itself (other amounts in support are not known).
2.) [/FONT][FONT=&]Joseph A. Mendenhall, of the Far East Bureau of the State Department, who had recently completed a survey mission to South Vietnam at President Kennedy's request, supplies a list of possible Vietnamese figures to head a successor government in Saigon. Note that the list assumes a civilian government and includes [none] of the military men who eventually constituted the junta that replaced Diem.
3.) [/FONT][FONT=&]President Kennedy brought up the letter at a national security meeting in the evening of September 11, asking if one had been prepared as he had previously suggested. National security adviser McGeorge Bundy tried to dissuade Kennedy from the letter idea. The letter was prepared, however, but ultimately rejected as too awkward and indirect (trying to get rid of Nhu without mentioning him by name, for example). Instead President Kennedy decided to send Robert McNamara and General Maxwell D. Taylor on a survey trip to South Vietnam, where they could speak to Diem privately, as well as evaluate prospects for a coup on the ground. That trip took place at the end of September. Diem proved unresponsive. Kennedy turned back to his pressure program.
4.) [/FONT][FONT=&]President Kennedy's instructions in late August to Assistant Secretary of State for Far Eastern Affairs Roger Hilsman led to a two-phase plan to put pressure on Diem for reforms and to dispense with his brother Nhu. Hilsman prepared such a plan, which included evacuation of Americans and terminating aid parts of the South Vietnamese military. This plan was at the center of U.S. discussions throughout much of September, but in the middle of it Kennedy privately had Hilsman prepare a letter to Diem with the help of Michael Forrestal of the NSC staff designed to ask Diem to make reforms, while simultaneously reassuring the Saigon leader and warning him that the U.S. would take actions (according to the Hilsman pressure plan) "which make it clear that American ccoperation and American assistance will not be given to or through individuals whose acts and words seem to run against the purpose of genuine national reconciliation and unified national effort." This was a reference to Ngo Dinh Nhu. The annotations in this draft are Roger Hilsman's.
5.) [/FONT][FONT=&]SORUCE: Lyndon B. Johnson Library: Lyndon B. Johnson Papers: National Security File: Country File Vietnam Addendum, box 263 (temporary), folder: Hilsman, Roger (Diem) [/FONT]These are the instructions adopted by President Kennedy at the White House meetings on this date. They are carefully drawn to associate the United States with moves to oust Ngo Dinh Nhu from the South Vietnamese government, notes that "a last approach to Diem remains undecided," and that the U.S. will not engage in joint coup planning though it will support a coup "that has a good chance of succeeding."
6.) Regarding (5) five above, this is the poorly drafted cable president Kennedy speaks about in his tape in which he mentions that a coup took place in which he acted [surprised] about, however, Kennedy's lack of knowledge regarding the coup, and his tape does not exclude [him] or [his] administration which was at the forefront of the Diem brother's assassination and early coup.
7.) The new regime hired foreign nationalist with assassination training, the generals who opposed Diem's regime hired French assassins to privately eliminate both Diem brothers upon surrender, (which they did in fear that had either brother been brought to exile a government in exile could be formed.)
8.) It is a known fact that Ed Kaiser who was trained in the FFL was sent to Loas, then onto Saigon in preparation of this assassination, proof of this information will be disclosed shortly.
27-06-2016, 04:59 PM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2016, 07:56 PM by Scott Kaiser.)
Bottom line, Kennedy wanted a reformed government in place in South Vietnam, however, Kennedy's administration advised Kennedy he should pull out of Vietnam and cease all American military support. Kennedy was obsessed over the fact that a reformed government could be achieved, however, Diem was consumed by power and greed.
After Kennedy's loss at the Bay of Pigs, Kennedy would not lose a second time regarding Diem, Diem would be assassinated. Kennedy could not get to Fidel Castro who supported North Vietnam with 100's of pints of blood he had taken after the mass killings in Cuba selling the blood from the mass executions of these individuals at $50.00 per pint to North Vietnam.
Three weeks later Kennedy would lose again, his own life. Foreign nationalist assassins has always worked for the CIA on many occasions allowing the United States to claim "plausible deniability." I suppose my question would be, just what was Kaiser doing in Israel in 1976? Most importantly, if he was such a problem for the United States, why then was he not deported as Carlos Marcelo was deported for instance? Why would [KAISER] be kept around if he was a man without a country under a French visa, why was he never deported back to France?
Kennedy also angered the French, as well as Eisenhower's administration, by proposing to add a sweeping military aid bill stipulating that any futher American aid to [France] had to be contingent on that countries granting independence to Vietnam, and this they did despite the behind the scenes American involvement in the death of both Diem brothers. It was the pressure by the United States to form a democratic regime in South Vietnam, however, several more coups took place in Vietnam after the assassinations of the Diem brothers.
Although, the details of Diem's deaths are unknown, Captain Nguyen Van Nhung took credit under orders from General Minh who says the killings took place in an armored truck after the surrender of president Diem.
The United States government had placed fault squarely on the generals who have been unable to convince president Diem that a reformed government to unite the people of South Vietnam would strengthen their ability to be tougher against communism, however, president Diem was seen as being "soft on Communism."
In order to prevent an all out rebellious war against the generals who some were against president Diem from those who were faithful, the opposing side reached out to foreign assassins thus putting the blame squarely on South Vietnam for the assassinations, however, these generals have admitted to using foreign assassins from France to naturalize the ever growing threat of Ngo Diem's greed for power turning into a type of communism of it's own.
Can you see my father's contact for Laos into Cambodia? Follow that name into Saigon, then unto the assassination of president Diem. Or, you may read all about it in my update.
Did I forget to mention that the person my father made friends with in the FFL, his name was Richard Chandler, he also severed in WWII, his wife was Tia, she was Vietnamese. I called her ta-ta. They too moved to Norwalk Conn. where they bought a home and we moved in with them, I tell the whole story.
