At last: Shickshinny Knights of Malta linked to the Draper/Vonsiatsky Condon ManCand crowds

[Jan Klimkowski]

You know the real origin of the term X-Files, right?

If memory serves, it's to do with Crisman and Banister's "flying saucers" psy-op and the filing system for some of the related reports.

Please expand.

[Helen Reyes]

...Possibly going even further than Cameron, both at Belmont Hospital in Surrey and St.Thomas' in London, Sargant subjected patients to up to three months' combined ECT, deep sleep treatment, insulin coma therapy and drugs. He said in a talk delivered in Leeds: 'For several years past we have been treating severe resistant depression with long periods of sleep treatment. We can now keep patients asleep or very drowsy for up to 3 months if necessary. During sleep treatment we also give them ECT and anti-depressant drugs'.

Just before the Spanish Flu outbreak of 1918, there was a disease, I believe it was called narcoleptic encephalitis or something similar, that killed a record number of people, and then disappeared. What it did was put people to sleep. They could be roused, but given the chance they would immediately go back to sleep. Most of them wasted away over the course of months and died. The survivors were said to be forever dulled by the experience.

Point taken on the use of shock in general and combat shock in particular.

[Helen Reyes]

If memory serves, it's to do with Crisman and Banister's "flying saucers" psy-op and the filing system for some of the related reports.

Please expand.

Yeah, Banister's (or Shaw's? they were apparently both there, as was Garrison) reports back to the director of the FBI on UFO activity in Washington state in 1947 (and perhaps elsewhere, I don't know) carried the title X-File number number number.

[John Bevilaqua]

.

Regardless of Bush's attitude about the JBS, he would have had to turn in that guy from Houston, IMHO. Bush was not morally conflicted, in a quandary or predisposed to turn in that guy at all. He just did it like any citizen would have.

At best Bush didn't let the JFK conspiracy get in his way of turning in a bircher, or didn't let his hatred of birchers cloud his operational judgment.

Even Jack Ruby in his W.C. testimony fingered Edwin A. Walker; Dick Russell's informant fingered Charles Willoughby; and both Mae Brussel, Bill Turner and others put Robert J. Morris and Willoughby at the top of the heap of the entire conspiracy. And Richard Condon fingered them all including Dr. Revilo P. Oliver whose brother Clarence (?) Oliver lived in Dallas as well. So I am going with the independently offered, mutually corroborating testimony of 5 of the people best positioned to know much more than I about the masterminds: Jack Ruby, Dick Russell, Bill Turner, Mae Brussel and Richard Condon, thank you very much.

As you like. Walker and Willoughby sound possible.

There goes the old Helen Reyes/TNTC (Tough Nut To Crack) yet again. Only one of them spent $50,000 in a lawsuit trying to ferret out my identity from NYNEX who had to defend the suit on privacy grounds. I am now persona non grata at NYNEX. And that psychotic person who filed his own lawsuit against NYNEX was none other than Robert J. Morris. He and his father lived down the block from me in Grapeland Heights in Miami and that was only 2-3 houses from the Cuban exile CIA safe house frequented by E. H. Hunt, Jack Ruby, Frank Sturgis, Gerry Hemming and several others where the plot to kill JFK was overheard by him. See: "The Miami Connections to the JFK Assassination" in The Third Decade. By Michael (me) Kensignton. That was my first JFK Assn article in fact. After I interviewed Morris, his son told me he spent the rest of his life trying to track me down. Then he got some condition or disease involving massive brain swelling and he died shortly thereafter. And even Richard Condon mentions Robert Morris about 8-10 times in ManCand. (More than anyone else, in fact.) Including one little plaintive notation: "Lord, Frontal Morris." Pretty clear what the message was here. Robert J. Morris was Mr. Big, the Chief Enchilada, Dr. Evil all rolled into one. Just trust me and Richard Condon and Bill Turner and Mae Brussel on this one. I took the work done by them, Wes McCuen, Walter Baldinger and Albert C. Kahn and just expanded on it it a bit. And Willoughby and Morris were inseparable at the AmerSec Council. Inseparable. Two Peas in a Pod. Morris would not have missed this gig for the world. Morris and Willoughby were seen celebrating and reveling at the Adolphus Hotel for hours right after the JFK hit. Bastidges.

Oh, it existed alright, as did Unit 731 in the same general area but neither one was fully discovered or thoroughly documented until the 1970's or even the 1980's perhaps.

In the book Russian Fascists? Is there an online or pirate ebook available? I'm not buying it literally, but might buy it in the abstract sense, don't know enough yet.

Not really. But for under $10 it is worth the investment. Someday people will rush to try and buy the last few copies. So get it for the holidays.

Non grata in Britain? Who made him so?

Well, OK, maybe NOT EVERYWHERE. Gag me with a spoon.

Pictures say a lot really. It might be interesting that the Japanese translation of Mein Kampf edited out a lot of Hitler's white supremacist statements; there was an edition for popular consumption and there was the real translation kept in a giftschrenk or whatever.

Birds of an anti-Communist feather, certainly...

Much, much more than that. Vultures with a common cause. Pro-Fascism, anti-Semitism, anti-Democracy, anti-Communism, Master Racism, pro-Hitlerism and all the rest.

Quite right, and very good question. Most were in the same boat as the pro-Tsarists, fleeing the Bolsheviks from Russia. There was an ancient Jewish presence in China, but not in Manchuria as far as I know. I looked in the Encyclopedia Judaica which is usually very good about ancient Jewish communities in unexpected places, and all it said was this:

This isn't the whole story of course. The Jews in Manchuria were eventually all sent to Shanghai, the ones who didn't get to Kobe, Japan. There was a special "ghetto" set up in Shanghai, separate (but equal?) from the the one for European POWs made famous in J. G. Ballard's Empire of the Sun autobiography. Chiune Sugihara was Japanese military intelligence, veteran of the Siberian/Manchurian expeditions, and ended up in Kaunas/Kovno Lithuania after having his cover blown a few times, as Japanese ForMin consul. He issued thousands of Japanese transit visas to Jews, whose final destination was supposed to be Curacao in the West Indies. His reasons for doing so are simple, but to explain it would take a dissertation on Japanese military non-compliance and the Imeprial Japanese understanding of blitzkrieg. To make a long story more interesting, even after he left Kaunas the visa-making went on using official Japanese embassy stamps and forms, and as Philip K. Dick and/or Czeslaw Milosz heard it in Berkeley, the Japanese border guards at Vladivosotok were astounded by the sudden number of entrants named Rabbi Silverstein. "Maybe it's a common name, like Smith?" Dick of course appropriated the apocryphal tale for his Hugo-winning Man in the High Castle, with Tagomi cast as Sugihara, whose name Dick couldn't know then. The Japanese moved the Manchurian Jews who hadn't left already to Shanghai, but didn't heed their allies' calls to murder them.

Some JFK researcher used an email address from Philip K. Dick. Gotta look him up again? Any insights into him to share?

I imagine the most gold was spent not on rent but bribing the right people to get the hell out of there as the Russian and Chinese Communist regimes closed in on a refugee community of real and self-proclaimed aristocrats bearing trunks and chests of diamonds, silver and gold and so on.

That was what I was implying. Rent plus tribute plus payoffs. Plus those little straw finger traps and the tiny paper umbrellas stuck into their White Russians.

Source please. "Russian Fascists"?

On which issue? Lost track here.

Did they release plague in Nanking too?

Not sure. Was it accidental or on purpose?

Training? End of the war? What training? How to more effectively crash into a battleship?

No. On how to resist the temptation to pull back on the stick and ski-daddle.
The same training applied to Oswald and the 9/11 bombers. You only get one chance to dive bomb the World Trade Towers with Jumbo Jets. One chance and then the armor goes up. You can't risk having squeamish, or cowardly pilots as Kamikaze WTC dive bombers. Try aiming your car at a brick wall at 100 mph on command and then not chickening out. Not possible without drugs, conditioning, mind control, persuasion and coercion. Just not possible.
:banghead: then either: :nurse: or :evil: or :vroam: I choose :vroam:

Sounds like they travelled together, no pun.

Did you know that de Mohrenschildt worked as a petroleum geologist for the Nobel Prize family somewhere near the Black Sea as I recall? Well he did. Ennobled by the Nobels from Sweden? Has a nice ring to it.

Branobel, you wrote elsewhere, in Baku. Wrong time period. Mohrenschildt studied petroleum geology in America long after the Russian Revolution, but anything's possible.

That's what I get for trusting someone else's Web citation. :hmmmm: It was his uncle and his father who actually worked at Baku when John McCloy was the atty there. Nice catch. Your Mom didden' raise no fools. George just inherited the family business.

And they probably have a much clearer conception of Jay-Lo's bubbles too. [LOL] No offense intended and none taken I would hope. I just have a sick sense of humor as if you haven't figured that out yet. Here are Jay-Lo's bubbles... :bootyshake:

No offense taken, smirks were had.

Nothing wrong with that when you are a patrol boy or a boy scout, or a gymnast or in a dance recital but grown men dressed up as Little Lord Fauntleroys wearing both funny hats with feathered boas, emblazoned sashes and extended length shiny sabers as symbols is just a bit much for me, thank you very much. Reminded me of The Village People to an extent. Singing together in a chorus line while spelling out: S-K-O-M with their arms to the tune of Y-M-C-A. Hmmmmm? Can you picture that? S-K-O-M S-K-O-M S-K-O-M S-K-O-M S-K-O-M S-K-O-M

In hoc agricola sim spittle honk ad nauseam cornucopia dum cluck itch, and the villagers are revolting!

Translation please. No estudio Latin. Solamente Espanol. Yes, indeed, those little SKOM-bags were quite revolting. Why did they have to dress up like that? Why did they think that killing JFK would gain them entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven or just entrance into the Kingdom of Riches on Earth?
Willoughby already made a killing on the Soybean market along with H. L. Hunt. He had the money. But he just had to exert his domination over both Truman and JFK as a sort of sadistic revenge for what they did to him and to Douglas MacArthur. When Rusk and Acheson (Truman's reps) were hired by JFK his fate was sealed. Signed, sealed and delivered in fact. I know Morris would have killed me just to shut me up. Strugis threatened me with the same fate. They play rough and they play for keeps.

Sincerely yours,

HR/NOP

OK, I'll bite. What does HR/NOP stand for anyway?

What is your take (and anyone else's take for that matter) on these fairly recently uncovered details about the nexus of characters directly involved with the Coudert Brothers Law Firm who also appeared in ManCand by Condon and in the JFK Assn conundrum years later?

As Sgt Schulz would say, "I know nothink" but I'll give you an impressionistic gloss if you like, Jan and David might know about this and be able to really comment on it.

1) Robert J. Morris on the Rapp-Coudert Committees cutting his eye teeth for his later efforts with Joe McCarthy's Investigative Committee. Whittaker Chambers gives almost all the credit to Morris in the NY Times obit for the success of McCarthyism in fact.

Wild Bill Donovan and Dulles were intent on rooting out supposed Communists in the Truman admin left over from FDR. The anti-FDR faction ties in with the Smedley Butler coup stuff of course.

And later into the JFK coup, too.

Boris Brasol, who arranged the translation and distribution of The Protocols and was once on the Czar's secret police intelligence staff?

I like the Dreyfuss Affair explanation for the origins of the Protocols because it a) makes sense b) ties in with other French stuff on the Priory of Sion and falsifications thereof.

Somewhere I read that The Protocols were White Russian forgeries...
Can not recall precisely.

Geo. von Mohrenschildt worked for some New Jersey Nazi news propaganda outfit for a while, was it Movietone News? Those little clips they used to play before movies at the cinema.

Did not know that. He worked for that Czarist perfume manufacturer, too.
In Manhattan. Forgot the name. Garde Chevalier or whatever.

Possible, in a sense. Christine knighted or baronized the family in 1650 though, and Baku oil fields were in Bolshevik hands by the time George studied petroleum geology, I'm almost positive.

Both Herbert Hoover and the de Mohrenschildts had ownership positions therein and were just ripping to get it all back.

The real Pancho Villa or is this an allusion to some Osborne shooting school stuff? George in his senate testimony says he started a "Bohemian Club" in Dallas along the lines of the one started by Ambrose Gwinnett Bierce, in his words. That's the Bohemian Grove in an earlier incarnation. Bierce of course was lost in Mexico after joining up with Pancho Villa.

The real one. Search on George Bush tomb raid Pancho Villa... I think.
It was a REAL lawsuit with actual sworn statements and an attempt to get
back the skull and bones of Geronimo by his current tribal leadership.

Wm. Hearst made a big deal out of Bierce's forecasting the McKinley assassination of 1901. Prior knowledge or somesuch charge.

McCormick was with the America First Committee with GLK Smith and much later the owner of the Chicago Tribune syndicate. And Villa's plus Cochise's (was it)...

Geronimo I think.

Yet another shoddy citation on my part. <grin>

David, I would assume you probably buy into my Birchers as lynchpins thesis more than most, correct? Can you buy into the Ray S. Cline as John Yerkes Iselin analogy to any extent? I think Helen is crossing over to our side on the Bircher theme, and maybe on the ManCand themes slowly but surely. What say you Helen Reyes? (an obviousLY deliberately contorted anagram for Rey Lenses, Eh? or The King's Glasses, huh?. <grin>)

Hmm my name as code... Greek Monarch I suppose. Not one of the Generals in the junta anyway. I don't see birchers as major sponsors, and still haven't read or seen Manchurian Candidate although Frank Sinatra's involvement in pulling the film is a little odd.

Frank was so anti-GLK Smith and anti-right wing and so pro-JFK that he just could not resist. Sinatra joined Bogart, Bacall, Edward G. Robinson and others in picketing GLK Smith and his other bastidges. Look up Edward G. Robinson and GLK Smith. 10,000 pickets at the GLK Hollywood High Speech supposedly all arranged by Edward G. Robinson who was Jewish and hated GLK for his anti-Semitism. Shoulda had him shot, see? Shoulda silenced the bastidge, see? Democracy has no way to deal with someone like Smith, see?

Just a straight reading of ManCand will reveal very little, IMHO. You have to know the DaVinci Codes embedded therein and the names of the players first.
Read it with a jaundiced eye looking for JFK murder clues AFTER you know all the names of Condon's Dirty Dozen, see? Then get back, see?

What is your vocation Helen, just curious?

House mom/homemaker. I've done some shoddy journalism in the past. I've been variously called a demon from hell, Anti-Christ, KGB agent, Mossad agent, neo-Nazi, sadist and fascist, but if I had to choose I'd just call myself seeker after truth. Thanks for asking.

My specialty is shoddy journalism loaded with inferences, bad cites and jumping to conclusions... But that is how I solved this whole thingy so what is so bad about that? If I spent time in the JFK LaBrea tarpits or in sorting out the Gnat Shit vs. Peppah, or in delving into Guns and Gore, I would be hopelessly lost like all those who did. No one gets out of the LaBrea Tarpits. No one. Ever. I did it using phone calls, phone scams, web searches and some really, really old books from the 1930's through the 1950's. Lotta phone scams. "This is Griswold R. Farnsworth from Dewey, Cheatem and Howe and I am looking for heirs or relatives of Alphonso D. Whitworth from Baltimore, Maryland", or whomever... from wherever.

And then boy do they spill their guts out thinking they are coming into some big bucks... if only they can prove their bona fides. They will confirm almost anything and just open up with concealed histories, in order to get their dough. You end with: "And did you ever have anything to do with the assassination of President John F. Kennedy?" And just record their reactions.
Funny as hell as they blubber, stammer, stutter and harrumph... "I thought this was uhhhh... about inheriting umm.... some money..." Ummm... Guess again. You just got busted!

[John Bevilaqua]

Helen,

I am self-publishing my manuscript which is in dire need of fact-checking and a few more validated citations. Do you know anyone interested in helping me with it? I may just put the quote out on GetaFreelancer.com or wherever.

[John Bevilaqua]

You know the real origin of the term X-Files, right?

If memory serves, it's to do with Crisman and Banister's "flying saucers" psy-op and the filing system for some of the related reports.

Please expand.

Was Philip J. Corso part of this same flying saucers psy-op or another one? He claimed to have witnessed Alien Autopsies, too, in Area 51 was it? Geeze, Bannister did flying saucers psy-ops, too? Wow.

[John Bevilaqua]

If memory serves, it's to do with Crisman and Banister's "flying saucers" psy-op and the filing system for some of the related reports.

Please expand.

Yeah, Banister's (or Shaw's? they were apparently both there, as was Garrison) reports back to the director of the FBI on UFO activity in Washington state in 1947 (and perhaps elsewhere, I don't know) carried the title X-File number number number.

X-File 9999 could also just be Cross-Reference File #9999 or X-Ref File #9999 for short, which was common practice in the days of manual files and cross reference filings. Not X the unknown or X the mysterious but shorthand for X-Ref File was just X-File. The TV show turned it into X the Unknown Files or X the Mysterious Files.

[Peter Lemkin]

John, One thought. Certainly the Soviet Union would have kept a very close watch on this crowd and there would be many secret files on those within it from the KGB, GRU, etc. While those files are still not very easy to get a hold of, on occasion people have. As Russia is not so palsy-walsy with the USA these days, and IMO increasingly less so, it may be possible to explore what Russia has on all this. It has always been my bet that most of the secret agencies [British, French, Israeli, Russian, others] had a very good idea of what went down in Dallas, but for their own reasons kept mostly quiet. [French being a notable exception - Russians being too complex to go into here.] Just perhaps, if your line of research is on target that Russia would have the mother load. They of course were the target of the false defector and patsy Oswald, as well.

[Magda Hassan]

John, One thought. Certainly the Soviet Union would have kept a very close watch on this crowd and there would be many secret files on those within it from the KGB, GRU, etc. While those files are still not very easy to get a hold of, on occasion people have. As Russia is not so palsy-walsy with the USA these days, and IMO increasingly less so, it may be possible to explore what Russia has on all this. It has always been my bet that most of the secret agencies [British, French, Israeli, Russian, others] had a very good idea of what went down in Dallas, but for their own reasons kept mostly quiet. [French being a notable exception - Russians being too complex to go into here.] Just perhaps, if your line of research is on target that Russia would have the mother load. They of course were the target of the false defector and patsy Oswald, as well.

In the last year I had a lunch with a member of the central committee of the communist party of one of the many axis of evil nations who shall remain nameless for now but he said that when he was last in the Kremlin archives several years ago, a place he has been to often, the place was crawling with Americans and most of them probably not there for the archiving. He doubted there would be too much left of any significance. I think I agree with him.

[John Bevilaqua]

John, One thought. Certainly the Soviet Union would have kept a very close watch on this crowd and there would be many secret files on those within it from the KGB, GRU, etc. While those files are still not very easy to get a hold of, on occasion people have. As Russia is not so palsy-walsy with the USA these days, and IMO increasingly less so, it may be possible to explore what Russia has on all this. It has always been my bet that most of the secret agencies [British, French, Israeli, Russian, others] had a very good idea of what went down in Dallas, but for their own reasons kept mostly quiet. [French being a notable exception - Russians being too complex to go into here.] Just perhaps, if your line of research is on target that Russia would have the mother load. They of course were the target of the false defector and patsy Oswald, as well.

In the last year I had a lunch with a member of the central committee of the communist party of one of the many axis of evil nations who shall remain nameless for now but he said that when he was last in the Kremlin archives several years ago, a place he has been to often, the place was crawling with Americans and most of them probably not there for the archiving. He doubted there would be too much left of any significance. I think I agree with him.

I agree with you Magda. As I recall, shortly after JFK was killed the Russians correctly blamed the right wingers in the USA for the deed as did just about every other intelligent and observant American. Rep. Henry Gonzalez from Texas pointed the finger at the right and most of the news or governmental sources I was personally in touch with including the Editor of the Miami News, Bill Baggs, one of the leaders of The Bay of Pigs invasion who was my Chemistry teacher, my uncle Charles W. Yost, who was undersecretary to Goldberg at the United Nations, members of the Miami Police Department Intelligence division, and many, many others, all correctly blamed a combination of the anti-Castro Cuban exiles, The John Birch Society, YAF and/or the KKK working in consort.

There was even a book by a person named Vladimir Nikitin, called The Ultras in the USA, which was translated from the Russian in the 1970's which phonetically named a person spelled Rich Loschli, who was obviously Ricard Lauchli of The Minutemen. If that was the best they could do then for a specific list of suspects, I really do not see how they could have possibly penetrated the inner circles of the Wickliffe Draper and Anastase Vonsiatsky crowds.

Vonsiatsky was burned once by a Russian Priest names Alexei Pelypenko and it got him 5 years in the Federal Pen then for violations of The Espionage Act of 1917. I think it is just idle dreamers and naive amateurs who still believe that there is something remaining, hiding in some deep hidden archive which will reveal the identities of the conspirators. Like some sort of "smoking document" or whatever. Dream on. The investigative methodologies employed by those like James Richards, Dick Russell, Mae Brussel and Bill Turner as well as myself seem to produce the most accurate results. You have to talk with real people, and take their evidence with a very jaundiced eye and then put it together with others who can offer REAL first person evidentiary tidbits.

Or you have to use my technique of telephone based ruses and scams in order to get them to tell you things they would never otherwise reveal to you or to anyone else. Then you look at who were the designated scapegoaters and the persons with confirmed foreknowledge and put the pieces all together in a logical fashion. When people like Carl Oglesby, Bill Turner, Dick Russell, Jack Ruby, Jules Archer, Joseph Milteer, Mae Brussel and even James Richards can confirm even one small lynchpin tidbit or critical nugget of information, then you take it as Gospel and move on.

The amateurs and dilettantes also forget that maybe 75% of all of the conspiratorial conversations were done in a Foreign Language between trusted associates, like either Spanish for the Cubans, Ukrainian for the White Russians, maybe French Canadian for the likes of Patrick Walsh and Ron Gostick, German for some of the Nazis, etc. And the dilettantes also forget that if people like Draper pulled of the Sacco and Vanzetti scam, the Alger Hiss ruse, McCarthyism, The Hollywood Ten scam with GLK Smith and several other similar scams without leaving a trail, then they certainly would never be stupid enough to leave incriminating evidence lying around. So when certain people say things like "IF your research WAS accurate THEN there would be hard copy evidence supporting your claims." with the obvious inference that "SINCE there is no evidence THEN your lines of research must be bogus." This usually comes for the anarchistic's approach to research in the JFK conundrum. Well since the ENTIRE U.S. Government is responsible, then we have to get a peek into every piece of information available. Typical trick of the right wingers, the anarchists and others who just want a peek into secret archives in order to learn how to bring every agency and everyone in the legitimate U.S. Gov down.

I have already weeded out and exposed about a dozen of these designated Protectorate specialists, all of whom were associated with real, live special interest groups behind the JFK conspiracy including Whineslow, Whimpey, Rahn, Ford, Diaz, Buell, Mack, Kelly, Gittinger, Terry Dolan, etc. and there are still some more to come.

So my advice to "Mr. Nanothermite in the World Trade Center" is to keep digging for more Nanothermite and some more real JFK nuggets and to post your stupid rifle for sale on the web to see if you get any bites. When you find the actual Nanothermite with a legitimate chain of custody, then you will become a real, legitimate investigator, otherwise you are just dealing in vapid and translucent imagery like BadgeMan, Black Dog Man, the flash of light seen in the limousine, or the alleged light flash coming out of the tank at Waco Ridge. Those people are the true Wackos and Small Potatoes and the sign of a true anti-American Anarchist of which there are plenty in the JFK Conundrum.

IF THEIR RESEARCH WAS ACCURATE WE WOULD HAVE A TON OF NANOTHERMITE AND OTHER NANO EVIDENCE AND BADGEMAN AND BLACK DOG MAN WOULD BE IN JAIL INSTEAD OF STILL HIDING IN THE BUSHES.

Who were the designated scapegoaters? Rev. Gerald L. K. Smith, Willis A. Carto, Frank Hanighen at Human Events, C. D. Jackson at Life, Robert J. Morris, Dr. Revilo Oliver, Billy James Hargis, etc., etc. I even did several pieces on Scapegoaters as Conspirators, years ago. Oddly enough, the evidence gathered over the years confirms each and every one of the active Scapegoaters as Conspirators.

And I never even used to think of Smith and Hargis as conspirators, just as obfuscators and scapegoaters. Now Smith is at the top of my suspects heap and when I finally found out that Hargis was in gahoots with Hunter, Willoughby, Rorke, McClendon and others he jumped 20 steps on the ladder.
Even those who continue to defend and protect McClendon, Prouty, Lane, Gibson, etc. and some of the other C.O.P.A. presenters in the late 20th Century are now on my list as deliberate obfuscators, debillitators and obstructionists if they engage in graffiti tagging, especially if they are self declared friends of my enemies. They know who they are, too. Imagine a so called leader of C.O.P.A. being a designated plant, an obfuscator, a debillitator and an obstructionist, just like Gordon Hall.

And more recently I have reached the conclusion that most of the Guns and Gore crowd are either creating deliberate webs of confusion or they are naive, but well-intentioned people who just don't know when to quit or to give up. OCD and all that stuff.