At last: Shickshinny Knights of Malta linked to the Draper/Vonsiatsky Condon ManCand crowds

[David Guyatt]

John, One thought. Certainly the Soviet Union would have kept a very close watch on this crowd and there would be many secret files on those within it from the KGB, GRU, etc. While those files are still not very easy to get a hold of, on occasion people have. As Russia is not so palsy-walsy with the USA these days, and IMO increasingly less so, it may be possible to explore what Russia has on all this. It has always been my bet that most of the secret agencies [British, French, Israeli, Russian, others] had a very good idea of what went down in Dallas, but for their own reasons kept mostly quiet. [French being a notable exception - Russians being too complex to go into here.] Just perhaps, if your line of research is on target that Russia would have the mother load. They of course were the target of the false defector and patsy Oswald, as well.

In the last year I had a lunch with a member of the central committee of the communist party of one of the many axis of evil nations who shall remain nameless for now but he said that when he was last in the Kremlin archives several years ago, a place he has been to often, the place was crawling with Americans and most of them probably not there for the archiving. He doubted there would be too much left of any significance. I think I agree with him.

I concur with this. I remember reading that during the early Yeltsin years a team of US intel/military types spent a small fortune to purchase the right to weed out the KGB files of all sorts of important information. These guys have war games for war games and are years ahead of the curve.

[David Guyatt]

I think it is just idle dreamers and naive amateurs who still believe that there is something remaining, hiding in some deep hidden archive which will reveal the identities of the conspirators. Like some sort of "smoking document" or whatever. Dream on. The investigative methodologies employed by those like James Richards, Dick Russell, Mae Brussel and Bill Turner as well as myself seem to produce the most accurate results. You have to talk with real people, and take their evidence with a very jaundiced eye and then put it together with others who can offer REAL first person evidentiary tidbits.

I am quite certain that Peter's suggestion was meant with the best of intentions and I know for a fact that his long research in these areas is worthy of the best of us.

I am also a fan of Prouty for all sorts of reasons. This thread is not the place to air these sorts of remarks, I think.

I feel we must all be very mindful of how we word our posts so as not to cause unwitting offense.

[David Guyatt]

Or you have to use my technique of telephone based ruses and scams in order to get them to tell you things they would never otherwise reveal to you or to anyone else.

I have to say that I have used similar ruses in investigating various subjects for exactly the same reason. Unless someone has very good reason to reveal closed information - to save their skins or as a deathbed statement etc.

[Helen Reyes]

The Cabell's had the only Dallas brothers connection between the CIA and the Mayor's office or the Dallas PD that I am aware of... Maybe Cabell just jumbled in your X-Files <grin>?

These men acted with the approval and consent of the CIA Deputy Director of Planning, Richard M. Bissel, along with the Deputy Director of Operations, Lieutenant General Charles Cabell -- later relieved of his duty by President Kennedy, who he would describe as a “traitor.” Cabell’s brother, Earle, was the Mayor of Dallas in 1963 and oversaw all activities relating to the motorcade and its chosen route through the city and down Elm Street.

Yes, that must be right, my jumble.

[John Bevilaqua]

I think it is just idle dreamers and naive amateurs who still believe that there is something remaining, hiding in some deep hidden archive which will reveal the identities of the conspirators. Like some sort of "smoking document" or whatever. Dream on. The investigative methodologies employed by those like James Richards, Dick Russell, Mae Brussel and Bill Turner as well as myself seem to produce the most accurate results. You have to talk with real people, and take their evidence with a very jaundiced eye and then put it together with others who can offer REAL first person evidentiary tidbits.

I am quite certain that Peter's suggestion was meant with the best of intentions and I know for a fact that his long research in these areas is worthy of the best of us.

I am also a fan of Prouty for all sorts of reasons. This thread is not the place to air these sorts of remarks, I think.

I feel we must all be very mindful of how we word our posts so as not to cause unwitting offense.

You are right again, David. Teenage Fascist rears it's ugly head again. Here is a quote from L. Fletcher Prouty (who is deceased and beyond taking any offense <grin>) It might just possibly convince you to move Prouty over to the column headed disinformation agent, JFK hater, witting agent of the conspiracy, obfuscator and debilitator. I am a bit surprised that you seem to be still enamored of this guy at all.

L. Fletcher Prouty at C.O.P.A. conference in either 1993 or 1994. This never made the sex, lies and video tapes either. Surprise, surprise.

"You know the Kennedys just came over on the boat, when....? right after World War I or thereabouts, and they just thought they could take over this country and run it the way they wanted to without regard to anything. Well I can trace my heritage back at least 5 or 6 generations and maybe even back to the Plymouth Plantation and the Mayflower itself, I am still looking into that. (short pause...) (Then with a sneer on his face... and real anger and bitterness in his voice.) Well, I guess we taught those Kennedys a thing or two now, didn't we?" The audience just went into shocked and stunned silence with only a little bit of barely audible tittering, whispering and chatting. Someone tapped him on the shoulder and he then continued with a more standard tone of voice and a more anti-Gov pro-Kennedy line of bullshit.

When I asked him exactly WHO were the WE you referred to in your statements regarding teaching the Kennedys a thing or two. He just stared back at me sullenly and silently. I said What is the matter? Cat got your tongue? (pause... more sullen silent staring.) More tittering, chatting, shuffling of feet in the audience. Someone in the audience said to me... Why don't you sit down? I said why don't you go phuck yourself then? Then they called a break in the questioning and spliced this incident out of the video tapes which were later sold.

Earlier some guy who looked like he could have been Barry Goldwater's son right down to the black, horn rimmed glasses confided to me during a break"

"You know Colonel Prouty is just like 'US' on the Nigger issues!" Later he said to me "You know that 6,000,000 lie about killing the Jews and the concentration camp thing was not a German thing it was a Polish thing." I said: "What!" He said: "Yeah, Auschwitz was in Poland, not in Germany you know." I faked a gut shot punch on him... and he wimped out and backed off from me as far as he could get. Fat mouth saying THAT to someone with a Polish heritage.

Now what were you just saying about Prouty the rotten lousy bastidge and the KKK supporter, the Kennedy-hater, the lineage lord, the Holocaust Revisionist and the anti-Semite, too? You still think he was telling the truth about anything? Guy from Canada did a fact-check on his New Zealand story and punched it so full of holes it sank to the bottom along with Prouty. Third Decade article. Shannon something maybe. Check out the Mary Ferrell site.

[Peter Lemkin]

I think it is just idle dreamers and naive amateurs who still believe that there is something remaining, hiding in some deep hidden archive which will reveal the identities of the conspirators. Like some sort of "smoking document" or whatever. Dream on. The investigative methodologies employed by those like James Richards, Dick Russell, Mae Brussel and Bill Turner as well as myself seem to produce the most accurate results. You have to talk with real people, and take their evidence with a very jaundiced eye and then put it together with others who can offer REAL first person evidentiary tidbits.

I am quite certain that Peter's suggestion was meant with the best of intentions and I know for a fact that his long research in these areas is worthy of the best of us.

I am also a fan of Prouty for all sorts of reasons. This thread is not the place to air these sorts of remarks, I think.

I feel we must all be very mindful of how we word our posts so as not to cause unwitting offense.

I don't think, if that was targeted at me, that smoking gun files exist still [if they ever did - unlikely] in any archive. However, I have found in archives many documents that support bits and pieces of a puzzle and can bolster otherwise unsupportable information. I have even gotten some from Russian files [on another matter]. The choicest files would have upon creation been put in the do not file files and most would have been sold/traded/destroyed for a variety of dirty reasons and deals over time. However, I still think to supplement first-person interviews [good luck, as most are dead or soon to die] archival materials can speak - even when those in control of the archives think they say nothing they'd worry about giving away.....:banghead:

[Jan Klimkowski]

In the last year I had a lunch with a member of the central committee of the communist party of one of the many axis of evil nations who shall remain nameless for now but he said that when he was last in the Kremlin archives several years ago, a place he has been to often, the place was crawling with Americans and most of them probably not there for the archiving. He doubted there would be too much left of any significance. I think I agree with him.

I concur with this. I remember reading that during the early Yeltsin years a team of US intel/military types spent a small fortune to purchase the right to weed out the KGB files of all sorts of important information. These guys have war games for war games and are years ahead of the curve.

As a small footnote, I know - from, ahem, direct experience - that it in the late 1990s it was possible to bribe archive staff to allow original material to be removed from Russian state archives.

My own view is that They have gutted or destroyed any "smoking guns" that They know of in official archives. However, there may still be "smoking guns" that They are unaware of and have not "cleansed" yet.

Remember "Dr" Sid Gottlieb destroyed all the MK-ULTRA papers he could find. But the old fool forgot about a few boxes of receipts. And these receipts to sub-contractors and their ilk provided the hard documentation necessary for John Marks' Search for the Manchurian Candidate.

Now, that book is arguably a limited hangout. However, without the discovery and publication of those receipts, which Gottlieb forgot to shred, there would still, to this day, quite probably be no public knowledge or admission of the crimes of MK-ULTRA whatsoever.

Dr Ewen Cameron would still be a "world class psychiatrist" instead of a CIA butcher.

So, archive research is a time-intensive and frustrating task. A task deliberately frustrated by Them. But every now and then a genuine nugget glistens in the shit They've left behind...

[John Bevilaqua]

In the last year I had a lunch with a member of the central committee of the communist party of one of the many axis of evil nations who shall remain nameless for now but he said that when he was last in the Kremlin archives several years ago, a place he has been to often, the place was crawling with Americans and most of them probably not there for the archiving. He doubted there would be too much left of any significance. I think I agree with him.

I concur with this. I remember reading that during the early Yeltsin years a team of US intel/military types spent a small fortune to purchase the right to weed out the KGB files of all sorts of important information. These guys have war games for war games and are years ahead of the curve.

As a small footnote, I know - from, ahem, direct experience - that it in the late 1990s it was possible to bribe archive staff to allow original material to be removed from Russian state archives.

My own view is that They have gutted or destroyed any "smoking guns" that They know of in official archives. However, there may still be "smoking guns" that They are unaware of and have not "cleansed" yet.

Remember "Dr" Sid Gottlieb destroyed all the MK-ULTRA papers he could find. But the old fool forgot about a few boxes of receipts. And these receipts to sub-contractors and their ilk provided the hard documentation necessary for John Marks' Search for the Manchurian Candidate.

Now, that book is arguably a limited hangout. However, without the discovery and publication of those receipts, which Gottlieb forgot to shred, there would still, to this day, quite probably be no public knowledge or admission of the crimes of MK-ULTRA whatsoever.

Dr Ewen Cameron would still be a "world class psychiatrist" instead of a CIA butcher.

So, archive research is a time-intensive and frustrating task. A task deliberately frustrated by Them. But every now and then a genuine nugget glistens in the shit They've left behind...

But wouldn't they just hide any materials which incriminated THEM or the KGB or any other USSR based agencies? Admittedly Vladimir Nikitin in "The Ultras in the USA" available from http://www.abebooks.com for about $20.00 said he had consulted with KGB officials to find out what they knew about who really killed JFK and all they could come up with was someone named Rich Loschli (his very poor attempt at a phonetic spelling) who was obviously Richard Lauchli of The Minutemen and I do not even think they were smart enough to associate him with The Minutemen. But his whole point in this book published in Moscow in 1971 (using some really thin rice paper or the equivalent, just a classic collector's book) was that "The Ultras in the USA" did it, that they then tried to blame it on the KGB or the Communists in general and that the KGB was glad that total all out war was not declared based on some of the John Birchers who pointed the finger at the KGB and the Communists. I remember it as only a fair translation, filled with bad grammar and "sum verry, verry bad spellungs", but still a good book to own and read. I have ordered the cheapest copy but there are a half dozen left for around $20.00 from American book stores including shipping. Maybe 1-2 in Great Britain, too. But it, get it and read it. It is the Moscow response to the finger pointing from the Right. They pointed their fingers right back at The Birchers, the KKK and several others among The Ultras in the USA. And rightly so. Get it fast.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchRe...sa&x=0&y=0
The Ultras In the USA.
Nikitin, Vyacheslav.
Bookseller: Lawrence Jones Books
(Nobby Beach, QLD, Australia)

Bookseller Rating:
Quantity Available: 1
Book Description: Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1981. Cloth. Book Condition: Near Fine. Dust Jacket Condition: Near Fine. First English Language Edition. 8vo - over 7¾" - 9¾" tall. 351pp, index, bibliography. Or dark gray cloth. Slight foxing. Jacketfoxed on verso with slight edge wear. An account of right wing America from the depths of Communist Russia. Includes McCarthyism, The John Birch Society, Right-Wing Fundamentalists, the George Wallace Movement, Racism and American Nazis, The Ideology of the Right, and the Class Roots and Social Base of Rightist Extremism. Bookseller Inventory # 007605


The Ultras in the USA
Nikitin, Vyacheslav
Bookseller: Peace of Mind Bookstore
(Tulsa, OK, U.S.A.)

Bookseller Rating:
Quantity Available: 1
Book Description: Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1971. Hardcover w/ DJ. Book Condition: Very Good-. Dust Jacket Condition: Very Good-. 1st edition. Professional book dealer since 1975. All orders processed promptly and packaged with care. Satisfaction guaranteed. ; "Based on Congressional Documents, Presidential Memoirs, items from the press, and other American sources, as well as on special studies." "Examines the evolution, place, and role of the right in the USA from the end of the Second World War to the Present. Rightwing groups are a threat to elementary human rights and political freedoms, to the guarantees of the Constitution, and to the civil rights of Americans.". Bookseller Inventory # 39554

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchRe...sa&x=0&y=0

[David Guyatt]

I think it is just idle dreamers and naive amateurs who still believe that there is something remaining, hiding in some deep hidden archive which will reveal the identities of the conspirators. Like some sort of "smoking document" or whatever. Dream on. The investigative methodologies employed by those like James Richards, Dick Russell, Mae Brussel and Bill Turner as well as myself seem to produce the most accurate results. You have to talk with real people, and take their evidence with a very jaundiced eye and then put it together with others who can offer REAL first person evidentiary tidbits.

I am quite certain that Peter's suggestion was meant with the best of intentions and I know for a fact that his long research in these areas is worthy of the best of us.

I am also a fan of Prouty for all sorts of reasons. This thread is not the place to air these sorts of remarks, I think.

I feel we must all be very mindful of how we word our posts so as not to cause unwitting offense.

You are right again, David. Teenage Fascist rears it's ugly head again. Here is a quote from L. Fletcher Prouty (who is deceased and beyond taking any offense <grin>) It might just possibly convince you to move Prouty over to the column headed disinformation agent, JFK hater, witting agent of the conspiracy, obfuscator and debilitator. I am a bit surprised that you seem to be still enamored of this guy at all.

L. Fletcher Prouty at C.O.P.A. conference in either 1993 or 1994. This never made the sex, lies and video tapes either. Surprise, surprise.

"You know the Kennedys just came over on the boat, when....? right after World War I or thereabouts, and they just thought they could take over this country and run it the way they wanted to without regard to anything. Well I can trace my heritage back at least 5 or 6 generations and maybe even back to the Plymouth Plantation and the Mayflower itself, I am still looking into that. (short pause...) (Then with a sneer on his face... and real anger and bitterness in his voice.) Well, I guess we taught those Kennedys a thing or two now, didn't we?" The audience just went into shocked and stunned silence with only a little bit of barely audible tittering, whispering and chatting. Someone tapped him on the shoulder and he then continued with a more standard tone of voice and a more anti-Gov pro-Kennedy line of bullshit.

When I asked him exactly WHO were the WE you referred to in your statements regarding teaching the Kennedys a thing or two. He just stared back at me sullenly and silently. I said What is the matter? Cat got your tongue? (pause... more sullen silent staring.) More tittering, chatting, shuffling of feet in the audience. Someone in the audience said to me... Why don't you sit down? I said why don't you go phuck yourself then? Then they called a break in the questioning and spliced this incident out of the video tapes which were later sold.

Earlier some guy who looked like he could have been Barry Goldwater's son right down to the black, horn rimmed glasses confided to me during a break"

"You know Colonel Prouty is just like 'US' on the Nigger issues!" Later he said to me "You know that 6,000,000 lie about killing the Jews and the concentration camp thing was not a German thing it was a Polish thing." I said: "What!" He said: "Yeah, Auschwitz was in Poland, not in Germany you know." I faked a gut shot punch on him... and he wimped out and backed off from me as far as he could get. Fat mouth saying THAT to someone with a Polish heritage.

Now what were you just saying about Prouty the rotten lousy bastidge and the KKK supporter, the Kennedy-hater, the lineage lord, the Holocaust Revisionist and the anti-Semite, too? You still think he was telling the truth about anything? Guy from Canada did a fact-check on his New Zealand story and punched it so full of holes it sank to the bottom along with Prouty. Third Decade article. Shannon something maybe. Check out the Mary Ferrell site.

Thanks John.

On Prouty, I have read all his books and found them unusually informative at a time when there was little enough information around. I also think it difficult to typify him as a KKK supporter, Holocaust revisionist and anti-Semite on the say so of a third party claiming to speak on his behalf. But, as always, I am open to being convinced if there is genuine evidence in support of these claims (but a different dedicated thread would be the best answer on this, I think). Your comment re the NZ story is intriguing and if you're able to remember the Canadian's name so I can dig deeper I will -- assuming that the person referenced is himself genuine and not on some sort of mission.

[Jan Klimkowski]

Below is a post of mine from elsewhere on DPF:

http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/....php?t=122

It shows how revealing a study of even a gutted and redacted paper trail, in this case of Dr Louis Jolyon West's research, can be:

The issue with the False Memory Syndrome Foundation is not whether some memories are "false". Of course some memories do not represent a true, or entirely accurate, account of past events.

The issue is rather that the FMSF was set up in 1992, precisely when many victims of covert "mind control" programmes such as MK-ULTRA were remembering horrible experiments that had been perpetrated on them - often as children.

The scientists involved in these covert "mind control" programmes knew the principles of creating dissociative states and false memories through narco-hypnosis. They also had access to the raw materials - chemical and human - needed.

It's important to state, on the historical record, that much of the focus of Bluebird/Artichoke/MK-ULTRA research was directed towards the creation of dissociative states in order to be able to manipulate them (for whatever precise purposes an operation demanded).

For instance, Dr Louis Jolyon West was the Top Secret Contractor for MK-ULTRA Sub-project 43: "Studies of dissociated states" (1956).

The first page is stamped: "WARNING NOTICE: SENSITIVE INTELLIGENCE SOURCES AND METHODS INVOLVED". The first page includes the following words written by West:

"The literature concerning clinical entities ordinarily considered to constitute the dissociative reactions is fairly well limited to case-studies of patients with fugues, amnesia, somnambulisms, and multiple personalities.

"Unpublished studies by the writer have led him to a greatly expanded concept of dissociation. Dissociative phenomena are found in everyday life. Such manifestations include "highway hypnosis", states of "fascination" in flyers, hypnagogic and phantasy hallucinations, transient anaesthesias, and many other examples. These reactions have many features in common with a variety of clinical disorders including "sleep paralysis", trance states, Gilles de la Tourette's disease, latah, "Arctic hysteria", and a number of other disturbances in addition to the well-known dissociative reactions of the text-books.

"There is considerable experimental evidence pointing to the significant role played by dissociative mechanisms in the production of the various phenomena of hypnosis. In fact, hypnosis may be considered a pure-culture, laboratory controlled dissociative reaction. Of the entire phenomenology of the various states described above, there is not one single manifestation which cannot be produced experimentally in the hypnotic subject. Thus, through the use of hypnosis as a laboratory device, the dissociative mechanisms can be studied with a high degree of objectivity."

(quoted on p107, Ross, "The CIA Doctors")

One can guess at what MK-ULTRA doctor, West, is referring to by his "unpublished studies". It is also revealing that West states emphatically, in 1956, that "of the entire phenomenology of the various states described above, there is not one single manifestation which cannot be produced experimentally in the hypnotic subject".

And the author of this TOP SECRET memo about MK-ULTRA research that he has conducted on humans is the very same Louis Jolyon West who became a key member of the board of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation in 1992.

Check out the link I provided in the first post in this thread listing the background of key FMSF board members.

West's background was not a mistake, or an anamoly. It was the norm for the psyop known as the False Memory Syndrome Foundation.

Of course any surviving paperwork has to be examined for inherent bias, and - most probably - regarded as the tiny visible tip of an iceberg.

It is this rigour that, in part, separates deep political researchers from MSM lackeys.... :bandit: