Profumo Sex Scandal Link to Astor family?

[Linda Minor]

The following quote is an excerpt from John Simkin's post at Education Forum under the title John Profumo, Bobby Baker and JFK. Since most of my posts have been ignored, I thought I would post here to see if there is any interest in this subject.

In 1987 Tony Summers and Stephen Dorril published their book on the John Profumo/Stephen Ward case, Honeytrap. During their research they managed to speak to several members of MI5, including Keith Wagstaffe, Ward’s case-officer. The book confirms that Ward had been involved in an operation that was attempting to persuade Eugene Ivanov to become a double-agent.
As a result of the book being published the authors were contacted by a former MI6 officer who claimed that Ward was murdered by a contract agent called Stanley Rytter, whose cover was as a freelance journalist and photographer. Rytter had died in 1984 but Summers and Dorril investigate the allegation and got the story confirmed by one of his associates, Serge Paplinski.

An excerpt from http://www.spyschool.com/spybios/profumoj.htm

...Stephen Ward's downfall was a highly convenient bit of luck for the disgraced ex Minister for War John Profumo. Focussing attention, as it did, on the sordid details of the lives of two pretty but extraordinarily silly girls, Ward's trial displaced from public awareness the fact that Profumo had lied to Parliament about his private life and prevented serious investigation of the real security aspects of the affair. Profumo's career in politics ended but he was awarded the CBE in 1975. Following Ward's trial and tragic death he devoted his time to charitable work. Less than two months after Ward's tragic and mysterious death, an official report was produced by Lord Denning, master of the rolls. He criticised the government for failing to deal with the affair more quickly, but concluded that national security had not been compromised and privately both Denning and the Government pushed the blame onto the shoulders of Sir Roger Hollis, Director General of MI5. He was responsible for not having warned his political masters of the possible security repercussions of the Minister of War sharing a whore with a Soviet Intelligence Officer. The Profumo affair was no passing sensation. It all but brought down the Macmillan government and it almost certainly finished Macmillan himself as Prime Minister. In October 1963, less than a month after publication of the Denning report, the MacMillan resigned citing ill health.

The Security aspects of the affair have never been entirely or satisfactorily explained, but it is known that MI5 ran a brothel in Church Street in Kensington throughout much of the 1950's and early 1960's for the use of visiting dignitaries, diplomats and intelligence officers. While for those too important to visit such an establishment certain discreet gentlemen were called upon to provide young female or male company directly to the VIP hotel bedroom, Dr Stephen Ward was probably one of those 'gentlemen'. He certainly had the right social connections, the girls and indeed he had an MI5 controller, Keith Wagstaffe (cover-name 'Woods'). John Profumo stumbled upon a joint MI5-SIS honey-trap operation designed to persuade Ivanov, the Soviet Naval Attache and probable spy to defect. Indeed, Sir Colin Coote, Editor of the Daily Telegraph and a former officer in the Secret Intelligence Service was responsible for introducing Ward to Ivanov at the behest of his old service.

A senior MI5 officer involved in the operation said that it was a pity that Ward's true role had not been revealed at the time of his trial. "I think that everyone involved did feel sorry about Ward and the final outcome". Ward, he added was a patriot working for his country. "Nowhere in the Denning Report does it say that Ward was acting under our (MI5) instructions, that is very unfortunate." To cover up the risk of international humiliation, political and security embarrassment, someone had to be sacrificed, that someone was the unfortunate and very loyal Dr Stephen Ward.

Comments --The original 2000 and 2002 Workbooks for Spy School were based on the information in "Spy Book, The Encyclopedia of Espionage, by Norman Polmar and Thomas B. Allen." and "Espionage, An Encyclopedia of Spies and Secrets by Richard Bennett ".

A story by Richard Purser entitled the "Denning Report," appeared as the first of a series in Winnipeg Free Press on September 30, 1963:

LONDON: Lord Denning's report reads more like a popular novel than a government document. A combination detective story and spicy memoir, it is well and tightly written — as enthralling a hundred pages as can be bought anywhere for $1.15. It would be good entertainment if it were nothing else. But it is much more. It is part of the picture of an era in the nation's life.

The varied events of the Profumo affair are assembled under chapter headings representing aspects of the case. Their presentation in this form has been widely summarized by the press services. Reassembled in chronological order, and with emphasis on material previously unrevealed or misunderstood in public, the
story's essentials follow.

They are presented in this manner here because the timing of different events in the affair still tends to confuse
the ordinary reader's attempts to relate them. The first encounter between personalities in the case came
1950 when Lord Astor went to Stephen Ward, an osteopath, for treatment after a fall in hunting. Successfully cured, he thereafter sent Dr. Ward many of his friends for patients. In 1952 Lord Astor inherited his peerage and tenancy of the great estate of Cliveden. That, year he also loaned Dr. Ward $3,750, the first of several loans.

In 1954 came the next encounter later to have a bearing on the case: one Mr. John Lewis won a divorce, but only against Dr. Ward appearing in support of his wife's testimony and seeking to turn the case against Mr. Lewis. The judge at the time described Dr. Ward as "a far from attractive witness on whose testimony not the slightest reliance could be placed." Dr. Ward, with no basis in evidence, later tiled to sue Mr. Lewis for libel". The story is recalled in "Scandal '63," an excellent journalistic account of the Profumo affair written , by a Sunday Times team under Mr. Clive Irving and available in Canada through the British Book Service, Toronto.

The story makes it clear why Lord Denning could say there was "no love lost" between Mr. Lewis and Dr. Ward, and why Mr. Lewis was all ears when evidence came before him eight years later. In 1956 Lord Astor let Dr. Ward the cottage on: the Cliveden estate at which many of his revels took place. In 1958 a 16-year-old girl named Christine Keeler left home and soon took a job at a London cabaret which involved, "as she put it, just walking around with no clothes on." Before long she fell into the orbit of Dr. Ward, who met her at the cabaret. In 1960 two other characters took their place on the stage: on March 27- Captain Eugene lvanov arrived in London as assistant Soviet naval attache. A fluent speaker of English and bon vivant, he was spotted by the security service as an intelligence agent. In July Mr. John Profumo became war minister.
Dr. Ward, who used his pseudo - medical talents and ability as a portrait artist to meet people in high places and was "prone to exaggerate" his acquaintanceships, was described by Lord Denning as a sympathizer with the Soviet regime. He told an editor who was a patient of his that he would like to go to Moscow to draw pictures of Soviet personalities. The editor, who is not named by Lord Denning but was Sir Colin Coote of the Daily Telegraph, accordingly introduced Dr. Ward to Ivanov at a lunch on January 20, 1961. (Ivanov was well known in Fleet Street.) The two quickly became friends.

In June Miss Keeler began the longest phase of her on-again off-again relationship with Dr. Ward, who "seemed to control her." She moved into his flat in London. Lord Denning does not go into details of the odd relationship
between the two, but it is believed this was Dr. Ward's only platonic affair.

He introduced her to many men, "sometimes men of rank and position, with whom she had sexual intercourse." Dr. Ward led an orgiastic life, going far beyond promiscuity to catering for friends with perverted tastes.

The security service meanwhile caught on to the Ward-Ivanov friendship, and on June 8 a security officer saw Dr. Ward about it. The officer's report said Dr. Ward was open about the friendship, had ideas which were exploitable by the Russians, and while not yet a security risk himself was "obviously not a person we can make any use of." In response to Dr. Ward's offer to help, the security officer asked him to report any propositions Ivanov might make. At his flat, Dr. Ward introduced the officer to "a young girl, whose name I did not catch, but who was obviously sharing the house with him."
A month later came the first mass meeting of the affair's participants — the famous Cliveden weekend of July 8-9, 1961. On the Saturday night Lord and Lady Astor wandered down to the Cliveden swimming pool with their guests Mr. Profumo and his wife, actress Valerie Hobson. Then they found Dr. Ward and some of his girls. One, Miss Keeler, was swimming naked and had to disappear clutching a towel around her. The next day after lunch both house parties were at the swimming pool together again, this time with Dr. Ward's contingent strengthened by the arrival of Ivanov.
Mr. Profumo was attracted to Miss Keeler, but that night she went back to Dr. Ward's flat with Ivanov. "There were perhaps some kind of sexual relations," but Lord Denning regards the night as an isolated incident. He does not believe the two became lovers, although they met frequently. Mr. Profumo met Miss Keeler again through Dr. Ward, and the affair began. At one point Miss Keeler told Mr. Profumo that her parents were
badly off, and he gave her $60, "realizing that this was a polite way on her part of asking for money for her services."

During the Cliveden weekend Ivanov asked Dr. Ward if he could find out through his friends when the U.S. would
implement its alleged decision to arm West Germany with atomic weapons. It was probably during the same month — recollections are vague — that the incident arose which Miss Keeler later described as a request from Dr. Ward that she get this information from Mr. Profumo. Lord Denning is convinced that any such request was in jocular form; something like "You ought to ask Jack about it," uttered during bandying conversations between Dr. Ward, Ivanov and Miss Keeler. She never asked Mr. Profumo for the information. "He would have jumped out of his skin" if she had, said Dr. Ward.
At any rate, on July 10 Dr. Ward telephoned the security officer and asked to see him. On July 12 he told him of Ivanov's request. He also told him of Mr. Profumo's presence at the Cliveden swimming pool party, describing Mr. Profumo as a close friend who visited him at his flat, and mentioned that Ivanov had gone to his flat with Miss Keeler on July 9. The security officer reported that he didn't think Dr. Ward would be intentionally disloyal
but might be indiscreet . On July 31 the security service asked police special branch to check on Dr. Ward and Miss Keeler. The same day the head of security service suggested to cabinet secretary Sir Norman Brook that he
speak to Mr. Profumo about Dr. Ward and Ivanov. On August 2 special branch reported to security that they had nothing on Dr. Ward or Miss Keeler, and on August 9 Sir Norman passed on the security warning to Mr. Profumo.

Security, special branch, and Sir Norman were all unaware of the Profumo-Keeler affair but Mr. Profumo concluded that someone had got wind of it and Sir Norman's real purpose was to politely indicate that he should end it. Accordingly, he immediately wrote the famous "Darling" letter breaking off a date for the next night. He saw little if anything of either Miss Keeler or Dr. Ward after that, although it is uncertain whether the affair ended immediately or dragged on half-heartedly until December at the latest. Dr. Ward remained friendly with Ivanov and was continually trying to help him find out about general British political intentions, presumably in the belief he was helping East-West relations. He enlisted the aid of friends, and on September 2 Lord Astor wrote to the Foreign Office saying Dr. Ward could be useful if it was desired that the Soviet embassy should be correctly informed of Western intentions.

On the 18th the Foreign Office interviewed Dr. Ward and told him his services as intermediary would not be required. In October Dr. Ward introduced Miss Keelor to West Indian cafe society so she could procure a colored girl for him. She did so, becoming acquainted in the process with reefers, Indian hemp and colored men. Two of them, "Lucky" Gordon and John Edgecombe, considered her their private property.

In March, 1962, she left Dr. Ward and went to live with Gordon. Marilyn Rice-Davies soon filled her place in Dr. Ward's flat, but non-platonically. Dr. Ward meanwhile tried to use another patient of his, Sir Godfrey Nicholson, MP, to establish a relationship with the Foreign Office. Sir Godfrey arranged a lunch on April 1 between Dr. Ward and Permanent Under-Secretary Sir Harold Caccia, but Sir Harold declined Dr. Ward's offer to put him in touch with Ivanov. Berlin, East Germany and disarmament were on Ivanov's mind at the time.

Reports grew about Dr. Ward, and the security officer saw him again on May 28. A basically decent fellow who has swallowed too much of Ivanov's propaganda and talks too much, concluded the officer. He could do harm
without intending disloyalty. On June 12 security warned the Foreign Office that Ivanov was an intelligence agent and Dr. Ward was naive and indiscreet. Other aspects of his life began to come to attention. A report reaching security on October 4 from an informant not named by Lord Denning said "I strongly suspect that he is the provider of popsies for rich people."

Then came the Cuban crisis and Dr. Ward's misdirected efforts to mediate, which made "'everyone more suspicious" than ever of him and Ivanov. On the critical night of the crisis, October 27, Miss Keeler was at an all-night club with Edgecombe. Gordon arrived and in the ensuing fight received a 17-stitch facial slash.
Edgecombe disappeared before he could be arrested, and Miss Keeler went to live with him. After an October 31 incident in which Dr. Ward and Ivanov crashed a party at the residence of Conservative House Leader Ian Macleod, security answered a Foreign Office political information request with a November 2 report that. Dr. Ward was not trustworthy. A frustrated Dr. Ward wrote Opposition Leader Harold Wilson on .November 7, saying that "I was the intermediary" for an October 26 Soviet offer to the Foreign Office of a summit conference. Mr. Wilson sent the usual non-committal reply merited by this sort of letter.

Last December Miss Keeler left Edgecombe, who determined to get her back. On December 14. when she was visiting her friend Miss Rice-Davies at Dr. Ward's flat, he arrived outside and fired some shots toward the window and at the door lock. He was arrested later and charged with the shooting and, the earlier slashing. It was his trial that was to lead to public revelation of the whole story — Ward, Profumo, Ivanov and all.

Within a discreet time thereafter, in April 1964 it was announced that Sir Colin Coote, age 70, retired as editor of The Daily Telegraph and would be succeeded by "Maurice Green, 57, his deputy for three years, the paper announced. Coote, a former Liberal member of Parliament, joined the Conservative Telegraph in 1942 and became editor in 1950."

In June 1965 it was announced that a weeks-long conference of British media would begin auspiciously on November 22 of that year--the Quinquennial Conference of the Commonwealth Press Union--in Bermuda, Nassau, Montego Bay and Kingston, Jamaica, followed by Barbados and Trinidad, as announced by the London headquarters of the Commonwealth Press Union. The delegation, and the conference, was to be headed by Hon. Gavin Astor, chairman of THE TIMES, accompanied by Lady Irene Astor, as well as a virtual Who's Who of British press world-wide, including none other than Sir Colin Coote of the Daily Telegraph, with Lady Coote (a possible reward for something he achieved in 1963?) [reported in the Kingston, Jamaica [i]Gleaner, June 1, 1965][/i]


In 1944 Gavin Astor, son of Col. John Jacob Astor, owner of The Times, had been reported missing in action in the war. He was "nephew of Lady Astor" of Cliveden, and therefore the cousin of Viscount Astor who employed Stephen Ward. Fortunately [or not?] Gavin returned safely and in 1948 was working in journalism at the New York Times. His wife, Lady Irene Astor, was daughter of Field Marshal Earl Douglas Haig. From that position he toured the United States, making favorable contacts wherever he went.

After the Astor name appeared in 1963 in connection with Dr. Stephen Ward's cottage "rented" from the Cliveden tenancy controlled by one member of the Astor family, an American columnist named George G. Connelly decided to determine the connection of the members of the Astor tree. He wrote:

The Astors acquired Cliveden when William Waldorf Astor left the United States in what is politely called "high dudgeon." President [Chester A.] Arthur made him minister to Italy, but he had been twice defeated for Congress, and his wife was losing the bitter battle with his aunt for the title of "the" Mrs. Astor of New York. So he took his millions to London, bought The Observer, and threw so much money around that King George V made him a viscount over the protests of just about everyone.

WILLIAM WALDORF had two sons, Waldorf and John Jacob. The latter, of course, is not the founder. Jacob Astor, who was born in Waldorf, Germany, exactly 200 years ago, the son of a butcher. He came to America, made a fortune in furs, bought, a chunk of Manhattan, and died the nation's richest man. Nor is John Jacob to be confused with the John Jacob who went down with the Titanic in 1912. This John Jacob bought the London Times and Hever, Anne Boleyn's castle in Kent, and spent $10 million restoring the place though he never got rid of the ghosts. But he doesn't live at Hever anymore. Because English taxes kept him from living in the accustomed Astor style, he huffed off to southern France. His brother, Waldorf, became second viscount when William Waldorf died in 1913.

The biggest thing that ever happened to Waldorf was his marriage to the divorced wife of Robert Gould Shaw, who was no kin to the New York Goulds but to Page & Shaw of Boston. She was one of the Langhornes who, according to Virginia legend, were three Southern beauties, one of whom married Charles Dana Gibson. ...

When her [Nancy Astor's] husband went to his rest in 1952, the title passed to William Waldorf, the third. He is the present ringmaster at Cliveden whose marital vaccilations often make news. His current spouse is a Pugh, a former model, not to be confused with the great Pews of Pennsylvania. Both were interviewed by Scotland
Yard on the Profumo case since they had rented one of the Cliveden cottages to the osteopath Ward.

THE PRESENT William Waldorf's cousin is Gavin Astor whose wife is the daughter of Field Marshall Haig of Haig & Haig. [Note: This is the same liquor company which licensed Joseph P. Kennedy, who was also fronting for one of the FDR sons, I believe.] Gavin is the editor of The Times and a friend of the Queen. It is alleged he incited Her Majesty to chastise Macmillan for arranging to have Mr. and Mrs. Profumo invited to the Queen Mother's box at the races following the war minister's speech denying any improper relations with Miss Keeler....

Gavin Astor gets his name from J. L. Gavin, onetime editor of The Observer. ...

THE BIGGEST Astor of them all was Vincent. He was the grandson of William Backhouse Astor. He fought in both world wars and belonged to more clubs than any New Yorker though it was rumored he once voted Democratic. Or at least he gave rides to F.D.R. on his yacht.... Vincent was the only Astor who was good looking and popular. He once owned the St. Regis and Newsweek, had three wives and told the city of New York they could buy all the old Astor slum tenements at their own price — which they did.

The Connelly column is a little too blase for my taste. What he failed to mention was that Vincent Astor and FDR were each related to Laura Astor, daughter of William Backhouse ASTOR II, and that she married Franklin Hughes DELANO, for whom FDR was named. Franklin Delano's brother, Warren Delano. The family history is set out in http://www.delanohomestead.com/bed-and-b...tory2.html which states:

Warren Delano II, President Roosevelt's grandfather, born July 13, 1809 in Fairhaven, also embarked upon a maritime career. In 1833 he sailed to China as supercargo on board the Commerce bound for Canton Company. In January 1840 he became a partner in the house of Russell and Company, also of Canton. During the Opium War, Warren remained in Canton and Macao, serving as acting counsul for the United States. In 1843 he returned to the United States where he married Catherine Robbins Lyman (a daughter of Judge Joseph Lyman of Massachusetts). Shortly thereafter the couple departed for Macao and remained there until 1846. After returning to the United States, the Delanos lived in New York until 1851, when they moved to "Algonac" near Newburgh, New York. At this time Warren's financial interests were settled in real estate and mining. During the panic of 1857 Delano suffered severe financial losses and in 1859 he returned to China to refresh his fortune. His family, which included the President's mother, Sara, joined him in Hong Kong in 1862, returning to the United States after the civil War. Warren Delano died at "Algonac" on January 17, 1898, nearly two years after the death of his wife Catherine on February 10, 1896.

Also this from http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary...delano.htm

Sara Delano Roosevelt (SDR) was the daughter of Warren Delano, a wealthy merchant who made a fortune in the tea and opium trade in China, and after losing it, returned to make a second fortune. Sara grew up in Hong Kong from 1862-65 and in Algonac, the family estate on the Hudson River near Newburgh, New York.

http://therooseveltfamilystory.blogspot.com/

Grandparents
90 Warren Delano II/Jr. [1st child of 87 & 88] (1809-1898)
m. 1843 lived at Algonac
91 Catherine Robbins Lyman (1825-1896)

Great Aunts & Uncles
92 Frederick Adrian Delano (1811-1857) unmarried
93 Franklin Hughes Delano (1813-1893) m. 1844
94 Laura Astor (1824-1902)
95 Louisa Church (1816-1846) un-m.
96 Edward Delano "Uncle Ned" (1818-1881) un-m.
97 Deborah Perry Delano (1820-1846) un-m.
98 Sarah Alvey Delano "Auntie Sarah" "Yantie" (1822-1880) un-m.
99 Susan Maria Delano (1825-1841) un-m.

Parents
100 Sara Ann Delano (1854-1941) m. 1880 lived at "Springwood" Hyde Park
101 James Roosevelt (1828-1900)

Aunts & Uncles
102 Susan Maria Delano (1844-1846)
103 Louise Church Delano (1846-1869) un-m.
104 Deborah Perry Delano "Dora" "Doe" (1847-1940) m. 1867
105 William Howell Forbes (1837-1896)
m. 1903
106 Paul R. Forbes (d. 1921)
107 Annie Lyman Delano (1849-1926)
m. 1877
108 Frederick Delano Hitch (1833-1911)
109 Warren Delano (1850-1851)
110 Warren Delano III/Jr. (1852-1920)
m. 1876
111 Jenny Walters (1853-1924)

"Rosy" Roosevelt, F.D.R.'s half brother, married Helen Astor, whose mother was "the" Mrs. Astor of the Four Hundred. Backed by his wife's money, Rosy dabbled in Democratic politics, and a $10,000 contribution to Cleveland's war chest in 1892 landed him the post of first secretary of the American Embassy in London. Then Rosy's wife died, leaving her two small children an estate of $1,500,000.

Vincent spent five years at St. George's School, Newport, R. I. [later the same prep school chosen for Prescott Bush, father of George H.W.]; he entered Harvard at the age of 20, only to leave the next year after the death of his father in the sinking of the Titanic in 1912. He was an early backer of FDR but eventually lost interest. According to Vincent's obituary in the NY Times in 1959:

"When Raymond Moley fell out with the Roosevelt Administration in 1933, Mr. Astor founded the publication Today as an outlet for the Moley theories. In 1937 Today was merged with Newsweek, of which Mr. Astor became the owner." He was survived by a half-brother, John Jacob Astor 3d, and a sister, Ava Alice Muriel Astor aka Mrs. Bartholomew Pleydell-Bouverie, who predeceased him in 1956. But most of his fortune went to the Astor Foundation under management of his widow, Brooke Astor, daughter of the late Maj. Gen. John H. Russell, who had commanded the Marine Corps from 1934 to 1936.

Twelve years before FDR ran for president one of his relatives died--his uncle Eugene Delano--whom the NY Times headline [at http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fre...38B639EDE] called "Senior Member of Firm of Brown Brothers & Co." Eugene's death was soon followed by the merger/buyout of the old Brown firm by Averell and Bunny Harriman and their mentor George Herbert Walker from St. Louis. Eugene was brother-in-law of John Crosby Brown, whose brother, Thatcher Magoun Brown, had also been a partner. It was common for banking tycoons to name their sons for business clients whom they had married their daughters to. Thatcher Magoun had been an early builder of clipper ships built in Essex County, Massachusetts for use in the China trade. Much to Thatcher M. Brown's chagrin, Magoun disinherited his own children when he died in 1903, leaving everything to an adopted daughter who had long been his mistress.

Eugene Delano had been a member of the Jekyll Island Club where the Federal Reserve System had been secretly set up and was survived by two sons, Moreau Delano and William Adams Delano. Eugene had married Susan Magoun Adams. See Family tree: http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?...87&ti=4317

My conclusion, right or wrong, from this research is that the Profumo scandal was engineered shortly after Vincent Astor's death, once his fortune left his hands and went into those of his wife. I'm not sure whether her father had any connection to the W.H. Russell who founded the Russell Trust at Yale or not; I looked for a link several years ago but have no memory of finding anything there.

I think the USA and the British welfare state long ago became totally dependent upon laundering drug profits to support the middle class workers' demands for public infrastructure as a device invented so as to avoid the wealthiest members of society from being taxed on their inherited wealth. Those who control the banking establishment are only able to maintain that control by running secret intelligence operations in order to kill off any threats against "capitalism," which is defined in the U.S. as anti-Wall Street manipulations.

What is intriguing, however, is the close connection that exists between U.S. and British Intelligence, especially in the media (propaganda) realm and in the banking overlaps particularly involving Brown-Brothers Harriman investments, which has been in control of Bush family for decades.

[Magda Hassan]

More brilliant research Linda! You always amaze me. Wheels within wheels. Just like Charles signature line.

[Linda Minor]

More brilliant research Linda! You always amaze me. Wheels within wheels. Just like Charles signature line.

Thanks, Magda. But I don't do the work for praise. All I do is follow the money. The money is the glue that connects all the dots. Absolutely nothing can be done in politics or government without money, and often the names of the plotters are hidden behind the facade of corporate structures. So one has to look behind the corporation name to see who may have been pulling the strings. Anybody can do it.

[David Guyatt]

Linda, have you ever come across any notable connections to the British chivalric Order the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem re the Astors/these matters?

The Astor's are a famous family for their close relationship to the Pilgrim Society (http://www.isgp.eu/organisations/Pilgrims_Society02.htm).

[Charles Drago]

Forgive my brevity in referencing a hypothesis that is as worthy as any of in-depth presentation.

Given, for the sake of argument, the existence of what Evica described as a cabal of Soviet and U.S. intelligence officers whose masters were above Cold War differences, I read the Profumo business, with its confused and confusing demarcations between East and West, as a manifestation of the conflict between ideologically/nationally aligned and non-aligned forces.

The Nagel story points in a similar direction. Who were the Soviets who were trying to stop the JFK assassination?

James Douglass is on to this deepest of deep political stories, as was Evica (as I attempted to point out in the Introduction to ACA).

[David Guyatt]

Charlie, I find a cabal of US and Soviet intell types in regrd to JFK not at all unlikely. Elsewhere on this forum I mentioned the unusual multi-millionaire, Armand Hammer, for his absolute open door access to the very top Soviet officials throughout the cold war. Hammer was an unremitting and unapologetic Capitalist.

Where did Stalin draw the line? Capitalists who weren't prepared to indulge his power needs - plus his outrageous urge to personally financially benefit from selling off the Romanoff treasure (well, some of it anyway - a great deal ended up in Manchuria and thence Japan following the latter's conquest of "Manchuckuo" in 1932).

As always it is the elite who pull the strings and who produce shadow matinee performances from behind the curtain, to keep us all guessing and to flummox us with perpetual misdirection.

As Linda says, it was the elite who ran drugs from the very beginning starting with Opium. So why should anyone imagine they would turn over such a massively lucrative trade to their state managers which today we call like to "government"?

In other words does anyone know of a case where a hired Plantation "manager" took control of his masters lands?

Not f**king likely is it.

[Charles Drago]

And so, David, we reach the point at which our kind must part company with the vast majority of observers of matters political.

The entire paradigm is what I'd describe as a sophistic construct: an edifice built on a false premise.

EVERY analysis that does not account for the Great Game is fatally flawed.

How can we find common ground with our neighbors?

To be truthful, I'm used to this sort of thing. While my peers listened oh so devotedly to the Beatles, I was enthralled by Bird, Trane, Miles, Bud, Tatum, Dolphy, Woods, Pepper, Ellington, Basie, Ella, Carmen, Sarah, Billie, Rollins, Diz, Clifford, Evans, Monk, Fontana, Rosolino, Sinatra, Bennett, Murphy ...

Been outside so long it feels like inside to me.

[Magda Hassan]

Thanks, Magda. But I don't do the work for praise. All I do is follow the money. The money is the glue that connects all the dots. Absolutely nothing can be done in politics or government without money, and often the names of the plotters are hidden behind the facade of corporate structures. So one has to look behind the corporation name to see who may have been pulling the strings. Anybody can do it.

Oh, agreed Linda. But this is what the MSM should be doing but instead it is part of the smokescreen except for a few individual journalists and a Texan woman married to an expat British man.

[Linda Minor]

Charlie, I find a cabal of US and Soviet intell types in regrd to JFK not at all unlikely. Elsewhere on this forum I mentioned the unusual multi-millionaire, Armand Hammer, for his absolute open door access to the very top Soviet officials throughout the cold war. Hammer was an unremitting and unapologetic Capitalist.

Where did Stalin draw the line? Capitalists who weren't prepared to indulge his power needs - plus his outrageous urge to personally financially benefit from selling off the Romanoff treasure (well, some of it anyway - a great deal ended up in Manchuria and thence Japan following the latter's conquest of "Manchuckuo" in 1932).

As always it is the elite who pull the strings and who produce shadow matinee performances from behind the curtain, to keep us all guessing and to flummox us with perpetual misdirection.

As Linda says, it was the elite who ran drugs from the very beginning starting with Opium. So why should anyone imagine they would turn over such a massively lucrative trade to their state managers which today we call like to "government"?

In other words does anyone know of a case where a hired Plantation "manager" took control of his masters lands?

Not f**king likely is it.

I totally agree, David. I have been reading several new books that have come out recently all at once, and what really seems to tie the lot together is Jennet Conant's book about Roald Dahl being an undercover spy for the Brits in order to find out whether the Americans were going to come into the war and whether FDR was going to keep the leftist Henry Wallace on as vice president. Wallace was adamant about the need to trash the British and French (and others') colonial empires after the war in the event the Americans were able to rescue those countries from the Nazis.
I haven't finished reading the last chapters, but was struck by who Dahl's sources were--Charles Marsh, the newspaper chain owner who bankrolled LBJ's rise being the primary source.

Thus it seems Lyndon, who was having a long-term affair with Marsh's girlfriend/wife Alice Glass, may have been promoted to the top with the help of this cabal of spies who were feeding information up the chain to God only knows who.

[David Guyatt]

I totally agree, David. I have been reading several new books that have come out recently all at once, and what really seems to tie the lot together is Jennet Conant's book about Roald Dahl being an undercover spy for the Brits in order to find out whether the Americans were going to come into the war and whether FDR was going to keep the leftist Henry Wallace on as vice president. Wallace was adamant about the need to trash the British and French (and others') colonial empires after the war in the event the Americans were able to rescue those countries from the Nazis.
I haven't finished reading the last chapters, but was struck by who Dahl's sources were--Charles Marsh, the newspaper chain owner who bankrolled LBJ's rise being the primary source.

Thus it seems Lyndon, who was having a long-term affair with Marsh's girlfriend/wife Alice Glass, may have been promoted to the top with the help of this cabal of spies who were feeding information up the chain to God only knows who.

Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was a spy? Bloody hell! Gor blimey and streuth!

Do these people have no decency at all...

I just read his Wiki entry. Very surprising.

Interesting about Charles Marsh though. Another Brit connection to the whole "Bay of Pigs" thing.