nanoo-nanoo 9-11 Premiere Movie & Interview

[Ed Jewett]

"Do you think it was practical to save 1.8 million tons of debris?", asks Orling, in an obviously disingenuous and apparently-uninformed statement typical of his approach to the topic.

Setting aside the issue of how much "debris" was turned to dust, there are numerous sources found through a simple Google search with regard to how the "debris" was handled:

#1)
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html


An excerpt:

"The discovery of the existence of intact pieces of the Twin Towers' columns would appear to be good news for independent investigators who would like to test samples of steel. However, the locations of these pieces within the towers suggests a reason they were allowed to be preserved. The large core column sections stood on the Towers' foundations, seven stories below street level, and the perimeter column trees were from the lobby level, just above street level. Only these lower sections of the Towers were spared the blasting that shredded the steel frames down to about their fourth stories. This is evident from the facts that 18 people survived in the lower reaches of the North Tower's core, and fragments of the perimeter walls of each Tower remained standing."

#2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L_CAOZoJsI (8:20)


Text below the video:


Red Hot Debris at Ground Zero weeks after the "collapse" from smoke and small isolated office fires. The removal of debris from the collapsed areas requires the safe lifting and maneuvering of very heavy steel beams, often twisted and tangled from the force of the collapse. Some beams pulled from the wreckage are still red hot more than 7 weeks after the attack, and it is suspected that temperatures beneath the debris pile are well in excess of 1,000°F. liro.com
Joe Allbaugh, the Director of FEMA, was interviewed by Bryant Gumbel of CBS news on October 10 2001:
GUMBEL: We're seeing a lot of video of smoke pouring up from the debris.
ALLBAUGH: Correct.
GUMBEL: And we're hearing there are places where temperatures are still approaching and sometimes exceeding a thousand degrees.
ALLBAUGH: That's right.
GUMBEL: Why? Why do we have these hot spots? color(black):What's going on?
ALLBAUGH: Well, you have normal debris, you know, computers, paper, you have some areas that are hot pockets because of fuel. It's just too hot for rescuers to get into those areas. So we do not know yet what's in those areas, other than very hot, molten material. FEMA.gov
Source publication date: CBS Early Show 10/04/01
Interviewer: Bryant Gumbel
Witness: Joe Allbaugh
Date molten metal was observed: up to 10/04/01
WTC Building 6 housed several federal agencies, primarily U.S. Customs [...]. The third floornow largely inaccessiblecontained a firing range. More than 1.2 million rounds of ammunition were stored on this level, as was a vault used to store other explosives and weapons. [...] The ammunition was finally located on Oct. 24, 2001, melted together into large "bullet balls" that were extremely dangerous to handle and dispose of properly [...]
The debris pile at Ground Zero was always tremendously hot. Thermal measurements taken by helicopter each day showed underground temperatures ranging from 400ºF to more than 2,800ºF.@@ The surface was so hot that standing too long in one spot softened (and even melted) the soles of our safety shoes. Steel toes would often heat up and become intolerable. This heat was also a concern for the search-and-rescue dogs used at the site. Many were not outfitted with protective booties [...]. More than one suffered serious injuries and at least three died while working at Ground Zero. The underground fire burned for exactly 100 days and was finally declared "extinguished" on Dec. 19, 2001." asse.org, May issue 2002cached copy
"Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for World Trade Centers 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and all subgrade levels, stated "As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running." SEAU.orgarchive copy
Source publication date: SEAU News Volume VI Issue II 10/2001
Interviewer: James M.Williams October 5, 2001 National Council of Structural Engineers Associations 9th Annual Conference.
Witness: Leslie Robertson
Date molten metal was observed: up to 10/02/01
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center." -Structural Engineer Abolhassan Astanehpbs.org
I talked to many contractors and they said they actually saw molten metal trapped, beams had just totally had been melted because of the heat." -Chaplain Herb Trimpe recordonline.comaudio
Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of "literally molten steel" at the World Trade Center. americanfreepress.net
Source publication date: 09/03/2002
Witness: Peter Tully
Date molten metal was observed: "more than a month after the collapse" up to 10/11/01
A NY firefighter described steel flowing at ground zero. "You'd get down below and you'd see molten steel -- molten steel! -- running down the channel rails. Like you're in a foundry... like lava... from a volcano. videoLOOK AMONG THE RUINS
A reporter with rare access to the debris at ground zero "descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams." theatlantic.comcached_copy
Source publication date: July/August 2002 Atlantic Monthly
The owner of Controlled Demolition Inc., [Mark Loizeaux Mark Loizeaux] stated the molten steel was found "three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed,". He said molten steel was also found at [World Trade Center 7 Demolition 7 WTC] , which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon. americanfreepress.net
Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet. -Sarah Atlas of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue upenn.edu
"Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel." jhsph.edu


[size=12]Joe Allbaugh? Yikes... Someone do some research on Joe Allbaugh, please...


#3)
The History Commons collection on the Steel Debris...

http://www.historycommons.org/context.js...eelshipped


#4-6)
Oh, avert your eyes, or shoot the messenger, or tell me this is one of the tainted sites inquiring minds aren't supposed to know about...

http://www.bollyn.com/who-sold-the-911-steel-for-scrap/

http://www.bollyn.com/who-destroyed-the-911-evidence/

http://www.bollyn.com/hugo-neu-and-the-g...eel-of-911
[/SIZE]
********

Orling says "if you cite Lynn Margulis as a 911 Truth leader..." which is an act of rhetorical dys-grace because I never cited her as a 9/11 Truth leader, I don't think she ever positioned herself as a 9/11 Truth leader, and -- Orling's correct -- I doubt she ever conducted a specific or controlled experiment or inquiry into the matter beyond exercising her right to read, associate and think. However, as a highly-recognized-by-her-peers-and-their associations scientifically-oriented mind, she is entitled to formulate an opinion. Apparently, however, Seth Kalichman "noted her position as a "9/11 Truth Seeker". [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Margulis ]

"Kalichman spent a year infiltrating HIV denialist groups. He argues that denialism is often a coping strategy, and that followers are often anti-government, anti-establishment, and prone to cognitive distortions; he says that leaders in denialism exhibit paranoid personality disorder.[3][5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Kalichman

So here is yet another case in which someone who questions authority, or challenges governmental and other statements and sources, is characterized as having cognitive, psychiatric or personality failings. This is wholly consistent with the general character and nature of previous declarations. One recent example is one in which Israel's deputy ambassador to Ireland advocated a campaign of intimidation, smears and falsifications and the suggestion of "sexual identity problems", as reported at the Irish Left Review [ http://www.irishleftreview.org/2012/06/1...advocates/ ].

Margulis on the topic at hand: http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/profe...l#Margulis


""The 9/11 tragedy is the most successful and most perverse publicity stunt in the history of public relations. I arrive at this conclusion largely as the result of the research and clear writing by David Ray Griffin in his fabulous books about 9/11. I first met him when he was a speaker at a scholarly conference unrelated to 9/11. He immediately impressed me as a brilliant, outstanding philosopher - theologian - author, a Whiteheadian scholar motivated by an intense curiosity to know everything possible about the world.

On the plane home and for the next two days I did little else but read Griffin's first book about 9/11, The New Pearl Harbor. From there I went on to read his even more disturbing account of the bogus 9/11 Commission Report, The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions, which provides overwhelming evidence that the official story is contradictory, incomplete, and unbelievable.

It is clear to me that David Ray Griffin and his fellow critics are correct: the 9/11 "new Pearl Harbor" was planned in astonishing detail and carried out through the efforts of a sophisticated and large network of operatives. It was more complex and far more successful than the Allende assassination, the US bombing of our own ship the "Maine" that began the Spanish-American war (and brought us Guam, Puerto Rico, Cuba, and the Philippines), the Reichstag fire that was used to justify the suspension of most civil liberties in Germany in the 1930's, and even Operation Himmler, which was used by Germany to justify the invasion of Poland, which started World War II.

Whoever is responsible for bringing to grisly fruition this new false-flag operation, which has been used to justify the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as unprecedented assaults on research, education, and civil liberties, must be perversely proud of their efficient handiwork. Certainly, 19 young Arab men and a man in a cave 7,000 miles away, no matter the level of their anger, could not have masterminded and carried out 9/11: the most effective television commercial in the history of Western civilization.

I suggest that those of us aware and concerned demand that the glaringly erroneous official account of 9/11 be dismissed as a fraud and a new, thorough, and impartial investigation be undertaken."

********

Orling says that "We need to know more than we do now", and I'd like to offer some suggestions as to how he can accomplish that.

First, one obvious path is to open up additional sources, engage in others' perspectives (even if you don't agree or wish to hold them out at arms' length), etc.

One example [there are many, but I have a limited budget and limited time] is Jenna Orkin's "Moron's Guide to Global Collapse".

Caveat lector: Orkin was one of 12 original plaintiffs in the class-action lawsuit against Christine Todd Whitman and the Environmental Protection Agency, cites the work of her associate Michael Ruppert (notably his book Crossing the Rubicon) and examines 9/11 dominantly as an environmental disaster.

As it only arrived hours ago, I haven't had time to digest it in its entirety, but the following jumped out in the first perusal:

"How science was abused to perpetrate lies after 9/11" [pages 145-153] and

"Tactic number 5860: while holding innumerable hearings to show what a good job you're doing, make sure the press doesn't hear the people who are telling the truth" [page 179-180]

[size=12]"In response to a question from Dr. Marjorie Clark at the New York Academy of Sciences, Andrew Rivkin of The New York Times argued that it would have been "irresponsible" to report what non-government witnesses had testified."

***

"Whereas in the areas of science in finance, the weapon of the government and its mouthpiece, the media, was the soporific potion of boredomhiding be smoking-gun data in a deluge of bureaucratic documentshere, it is entertainment. 9/11 research is a rabbit-Hall of Byzantine complexity, full of snares and delusions and people will false friends, lunatics, earnest lost souls and a few heroes.

The problem is distinguishing them all. Those in charge of taking pains to muddy the waters of legitimate inquiry with muddy claims and downright howlers.

As in the case of the Kennedy assassination, where the fling of the head upon the impact of the bullet is conclusive evidence of where the bullet came from, physical evidence is hopeless. According to… [the website] www.oilempire.US: "For every PhD, there is an equal and opposite PhD." A[/SIZE]nd when it comes to the lone researcher versus the United States government,, guess who has more resources to spare on sussing out the hired guns and granting them contracts." [Orkin, op.cit., Pages 114-115]

[While not pertinent to 9/11 per se, "breakdowns and security (although there are obvious incidents and examples inside the 9/11 story, official and otherwise), her commentary (pages 62-73) on the repeated examples throughout of history of "breakdowns in security" (she cites JFK, Lennon, the attempt on Ford by Sara Moore, Anwar El-Sadat, and the comments by Benazir Bhutto (herself later assassinated) on the death of Ossama bin Laden) are an interesting read.]

***

The second part of my recommendation on how Orling and others can "know more than we do now" is to recognize and acknowledge the widespread attack on and degradation of science and its reporting by governmental powers (often in concert with corporations) and to stop worshipping at the altar of Cartesian emphases.

In simpler terms, it is useful to engage one's whole brain amidst all of the recent and current implications for body-oriented knowing.

"When we combine both thought patterns of each hemisphere, we are accomplishing the ultimate in human behavior. Not only do we enable ourselves to exhibit and maintain peak human analytical performance, we are also allowing ourselves to receive our atmospheric conditions or situations with an open mind; which concurrently brings about resolve or ideas regarding those conditions or situations."

http://www.holisticjunction.com/articles...ndset.html

[Jeffrey Orling]

Ed,

That was quite a treatise. Thank you for that. I certainly agree that we are all entitled to have and express and opinion(s). I don't criticize Lynn for that or for others trying to use her standing in biology/science as some sort of imprimatur adding gravitas to her opinion that does not grace the opinion(s) of Joe Average. Got it. I get how this game is played... line of the people with alphabets after their name and it sways public opinion.

Logic can only go so far and DRG is a collecting reports and snippets from others and connecting dots... dots that he sees. He is not doing any *fundamental science*... certainly about the destruction of the WTC. He's good at what he does. But he's only as good as his sources and the dots he chooses to connect.

I've tried to argue that even if there were plans for the need for a new Pearl Harbor type event to catalyze the public to support some aggressive foreign policy it doesn't mean that someone actually conspired to create that Pearl Harbor event as apparently Griffin concludes and you agree.

As despicable as the DOD is I believe they have all sorts of war games and what if scenarios they study and prepare for. In fact on 911 they were engaged in a plane hijacking one almost identical to the real event. While many can conclude therefore that the real deal WAS an inside job... it remains a possibility that it was an exercise because to the DOD it represented a likely possibility.

Sailors who go offshore practice all sorts of what if disasters to prepare themselves on how to react if such an event occurs. Preparedness exercises does not mean that the DOD did the deed.

But TPTB sure knew how they were going to respond politically if the event happened... and to me it's conceivable that they let it happen (some advance knowledge) because they could then implement the political response that they wanted anyway... more money for the MIC... a new enemy... hands off by congress on their tactics in fighting and so on.

The fact is this is all POLITICAL speculation because there is no hard evidence of the plot, who carried it out, how they did it and so forth.

I come from the place of what actually took place at the WTC on 9/11 and my own independent research and that of several others shown that the collapses did not need explosives. Explosives could have initiated the collapse... but there is no solid evidence of that... it's just speculation.

The high heat post collapse DOES need a proper explanation. I believe that the energy from friction released by the mechanical destruction could account for the high heat. I can't calculate this, but perhaps someone can. I believe that there could have been bizarre exothermic anaerobic reactions from the the ground material and high heat created by the collapse. I am not a chemist but it seems like something to investigate.

If the heat was from a device, that needs to be explained in some detail...not simply *high tech secret military technology*. That's like the dog ate the homework rationale for the absence of evidence of CD in recovered steel.

My research indicates that the collapses COULD be made to happen with actually very little intervention BECAUSE of the design (flaws- attributes). This means that they wouldn't require massive high tech explosives or lots of mechanics to place them. But this is speculative and again there is no proof of this.

First solve the collapse mystery and then the who dunnit.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Ed,

I have been engaged in the study of 911 for 3 solid years and before that had a keen interest in it. I have been very involved inside the 911 truth movement even serving on the board of directors for AE911T. I have lobbied directly to the NYC City Council and authored a presentment for a misprision or treason case which was delivered by Sander Hicks. I've read almost anything I can from the internet on the topic, watched all the vids and DVDs multiple times, read the NIST, and FEMA reports and consider myself to be well above average in knowing all the various thinking/perspective about 9/11. I believe I know as much if not more than anyone in the truth movement about the structure of the twin towers... something the truth movement has a very cartoon like conception of... using such statements as *47 massive box columns* in the core to characterize why they can't collapse.

My own study has led me to look at the provenance of some of the *evidence* statements of the truth movement and to try to vet them myself. I've found some mistakes that should not have been made but have been continually repeated for years and accepted as facts. I try not to repeat that which I don't completely understand or have vetted.

I am as distrustful of the state or the deep state as anyone. But I do believe that terrorism exists and the imperialists are the cause of it. I also believe that the powers that be are always going to turn every disaster into manna and stomp on democracy at every turn... the so called disaster capitalism - the shock doctrine. They don't have to create them to make a killing from them. They do so every time and get better at it with each passing day. We've been robbed of our democracy, our elections, our rights and the people don't seem to notice.

I do not see the world as a vast conspiracy of the deep state. But the deep state is there to make sure it stays in control no matter what happens and they DO make lots of things happen.

When you can offer an explanation of the mechanism of destruction of those towers... I'll listen. And I use all of my brain... to do it. (I've studied neurophysiology in college too!) boo hoo!

[Jeffrey Orling]

Ed wrote:

"Certainly, 19 young Arab men and a man in a cave 7,000 miles away, no matter the level of their anger, could not have masterminded and carried out 9/11: the most effective television commercial in the history of Western civilization."

What does actually take to hijack some planes and fly them into looming skyscrapers? If the security is lax enough or there are enough thugs it seems possible. I am not arguing that this is what actually happened..... But it doesn't seem that this requires the workings of the CIA to pull it off.

Well... how did they manage to not get shot down or stopped? Good question. But if the schmucks wanted their Pearl Harbor... maybe they got some help in the form of staged military exercises which confused the ATC system and took most of the planes off station. That's a LIHOP... but if the cavemen had a little help it seems possible.

Control the media? Come on Ed... who has always controlled the media... official sources and talking heads from the national security state the .1%ers. They reported whatever the assumed for this post... LIHOPers wanted reported. The media loved 911... big bucks. They love a war, hero stories and so forth and they ran them for months and years. Hijacker didn't do that...and they would care or bother to plan the media response.

We've been living in the Truman Show for decades...

And you don't think TPTB that may have LIHOPed 911 would let any investigations get close to their foreknowledge and stand downs? Hell no... they had a brand to sell and they did. They rolled out the script because these idiots gave them their new Pearl Harbor... they didn't plan the most effective television commercial in the history of civilization... the response was already embedded in the genes of the media... they went with it like bots... as we've lost the real fourth estate decades ago. No possibility of getting truth from our media... they are into infotainment! Managed and even created news... and of course propaganda such as VOA...

Hell no you didn't have to master mind 9/11 response... it was the only one that our media and congress critters could have. They are lame and tame and sold out.

[Ed Jewett]

Jeffrey, "that dog" (your thinking and logic) "don't hunt".

Carolyn Baker, noted blogger, author, asked the attendees at a recent workshop "if they could hold ambiguity... if they were prepared not to know? She suggested that what needed to happen, in the midst of the convergence of crises whose outcome and specifics could not be known, was the purposeful creation of beauty, music, dance, poetry, the visual arts, the creation of radical joy and, especially, by delighting in contemplative nature. She called it "peak psychotherapy": we are going to have to offer it up ourselves rather than rely on it being trucked in from somewhere else on the fumes of increasingly rare and expensive petrol and available only at high price." [See the blog entry based on my attendance at that event: http://summonthemagic.blogspot.com/2012/...dance.html ]

But holding off conclusion based on an "apparent" lack of evidence is not a new wrinkle in this game; you didn't invent it. Indeed, the injection of doubt is an old wrinkle. How long will you maintain your doubt? It's been ten years now. Do you think you'll have some insight by the year 2060 (the equivalent of the same period of time spent on debating the events in and around Dealey Plaza). I'm a Salandrian.

"Whenever evidence of a conspiracy emerged --- and mountains of facts were supplied by the government for us to scrutinize --- the government refused to act on that evidence. On the other hand, whenever any data emerged, no matter how thoroughly incredible, which could possibly be interpreted as supporting [the OCT] --- the government invariably and with the greatest solemnity declared that such data proved the correctness of the [OCT].... We cannot consider ourselves a free and democratic people until we understand and address the evil nature of the warfare- state power which[committed the foul evil deed].... We can no longer afford to shield ourselves...." [ http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back..._text.html ]

"We spent too much time and effort microanalyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don't you think that the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: 'We are in control and no one - not the President, nor Congress, nor any elected official - no one can do anything about it.' It was a message to the people that their Government was powerless." [ http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKfonzi.htm ]

Key words: "blatantly obvious", "openly arrogant"*, "transparent"...

* Openly arrogant, as exemplified here today: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/06/nsa-spied/

Note that I am not likely to waste a lot of time playing thread tag ("you're it") with someone who doesn't address the points made in the interaction.

I've been doing this for too long, and there are more important things in life right now.

[Ed Jewett]

Ed wrote:

"Certainly, 19 young Arab men and a man in a cave 7,000 miles away, no matter the level of their anger, could not have masterminded and carried out 9/11: the most effective television commercial in the history of Western civilization."

Pay attention and speak honestly and articulately, Mr. Orling.

Ed did not write that. Ed posted a statement by Lynn Margulis.

If you can't do better than that in your reactive state, perhaps should hire some more help.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Ed,

Please do something else then play thread tag.

My thinking is evolving... about 9/11. I don't expect to understand all the mysteries because not only can I not see all the evidence... but likely can't make sense of it. The sceince and engineering are quite complex... way more than any conspiracy theory.

I was 13 went JFK was shot... I attened Mark Lane talks and knew the conspiracy was not what we were told, but hard to know precisely what it was. When you don't have evidence or the knowledge to analyze it you can't understand what it is and you are forced to see it as a cartoon.

We have very serious problems in America... the world... and 9/11 is a rather small one in the scheme of things I'd say.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Ed,

Sorry for the attribution to you instead of Lynn. Stuff your sarcasm about hiring help up your you know what. There's no need for that sort of sarcasm. A bit more civility would be appreciated.

I am being honest and expressing myself as best I can. You don't win arguments by insulting people with ad homs. It exposes the fact that you can't arrgue the facts so you resort to insults.

[Ed Jewett]

Ed,

Please do something else then play thread tag.

My thinking is evolving... about 9/11. I don't expect to understand all the mysteries because not only can I not see all the evidence... but likely can't make sense of it. The sceince and engineering are quite complex... way more than any conspiracy theory.

I was 13 went JFK was shot... I attened Mark Lane talks and knew the conspiracy was not what we were told, but hard to know precisely what it was. When you don't have evidence or the knowledge to analyze it you can't understand what it is and you are forced to see it as a cartoon.

We have very serious problems in America... the world... and 9/11 is a rather small one in the scheme of things I'd say.

I was 15 when JFK was shot, and I've been studying 9/11 (and posting and blogging about it) since soon after John Kerry, the Bonesman-cum-Naval hero-turned-almost Presidential didn't say a word about the election of 2004.

I agree we have very serious problems in America, but 9/11 is emblematic of them, and plays a very large role, given its connections to military-industrial-fascist-corporate-Zionist hegemony, deep black financial shenanigans (see the Gaffney book et al), and the warrrsssz in the Middle East (still active, yes? I'm sure you're up to speed on the Israeli tanks on the Egyptian border, the Saudi tank order, the new Israeli Dolphin nuclear subs, the assignment of US combat troops to Kuwait, the Russian-Syrian war games (or not), peak oil and the depths of the Straits of Hormuz, etc. ad nauseum). Given the figures in and around 9/11 that were associated with Kroll, money, Iraq (jerry Bremer), WTC7 (Jerome Hauer), etc etc etc and the fact that plans were drafted and underway for the war in Afghanistan before 9/11, that the PATRIOT Act was written and waiting in a desk drawer, that 9/11 was forecast to a fair-thee-well in several places and ways, that Cheney's "lessons learned" from Iran-Contra has been documented (hey, I posted that stuff at E Pluribus Unum which earned me the invitation to be here), you keep looking for the scientific facts about the reasons why the towers fall down went boom while you wait for Godot.

As for the "stuff it where the sun don't shine" issue, my primary care physician agreed that I don't need a colonoscopy despite the fact that I haven't had one in over three years.

As for the civility issue, I held and argued at that old now-dead discussion board known as CommonGroundCommonSense.org [where civility was written into the rules] that civility is not required when having a dialogue with people that defend the indefensible, when habeas corpus rights no longer exist, when the POTUS maintains the right to kill extra-judicially anyone he doesn't care for, when that same POTUS has stated that challenging the state on this issue is unacceptable, when I am on several counts already cited as a potential "domestic terrorist" because I hold the views that I do. Get real, Jeffrey. And stating that I can't argue the points is a tactic as old as the hills... But we're beyond that as a nation-state; it doesn't matter anymore, or didn't you get the memo?

When assassination is an open weapon of the many states actively involved in totalitarian/fascist power-hungry "all-spectrum dominance", when my every keystroke is subject to surveillance, when virtually everything I do is categorized and filed in deep cybernetic caverns in Utah, civility as a desirable trait is as likely to thrive as something trying to grow in the salt-alkaline deserts. Perhaps someone can "frack" it into place, or create some new type of "flame" software that will sing "Kum-bye-yah" and turn civility into a jazz standard.
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLF46JKkCNg&feature=player_embedded"]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLF46JKkC...r_embedded[/URL]

"though I'm going out of my way just so I can pass by each day, not a single word do we say, it's a farcical display".

[Jeffrey Orling]

Ed,

I am real. I don't for a minute doubt that TPTB have all sorts of nasty plans and look for the opportunity to advance them. Remember that meeting in the WH about Oil/Energy/ME they held soon after W took office and wouldn't release even who was in attendance IRRC. I wouldn't doubt that they discussed finishing off Sadam and moving in on his oil... if they could find an excuse.. or maybe create one.

We are a democracy in name and don't start wars of aggression. But we are an imperial power which makes the world an oyster for the multinationals and care boo about the people. They are managed and manipulated into support. Witness how we are *polled to death* to manage public sentiment... a fient to democracy and the notion that the people need to seemingly support TPTB.

I am real enough to see the complete and utter corruption of America, the influence of money in politics, the revolving door between gov and industry, the power of lobbyists, the absurdity of the huge military (industrial complex) when we have no demonstrable military threats out there, the warehousing of almost 2.5 million people mostly for non violent crimes, the phoney drug war to advance the police state and make insiders lots of cash, money laundering and the list goes on and on. I do not support this policies of the US, state, City or many local governments in the USA. The country is much closer to fascism than democracy and it can be argued we are living in a fascist country... and we don't have the legal power... or opportunity to change that. We've lost the fourth estate, elections are a series of tweedle dee and tweedle dum choices of candidates who support the fascism and the flimsy facade that the term democracy means in America.

There is no rational reason why Americans can't have a decent health care system which they can afford. But like 9/11 or any other issues it does not serve TPTB to provide it. Like the manipulated economy or the real estate industries the people are always a the short end of the stick and worse... creating wealth and having it sucked from them by TPTB.

There are people around the world who increasingly are pissed off at the USA and its MIC and willing to strike back in any way they can as a result of the devastation they suffer from our policies. Castro toppled the corrupt Battista regime which had made Cuba the playground for the US corporations. They fought to take back and keep them out. Bravo to them!

I think we have seen the end to those sorts of guerilla struggles as the USA has increased military support to their surrogate thugs around the world to suppress and oppress the people. Terrorism is how they now fight back. The Palestinians use it against Israel's oppression but call it struggle for national self determination.

Of our lovely FBI and CIA exploited the fear of terrorism and use this fear to manipulate the people and get what they want. They've engaged in stings, entrapment and even false flags to advance their agenda of full spectrum dominance. Their agenda is clear and they certainly know how to control the people and the their response with PR. The media is now no different than Pravda. Independent media is isolated and marginalized... or likely infiltrated.

None of this means that every event has been planned and staged. None of this negates the notion that TPTB haven't created the conditions for terrorism to bloom and that's peachy keen with them because it allows them to advance their agenda whenever there is an incident large or small. Without a enemy or a threat they have no franchise. But as long as we keep pissing people off they will find a way to make lemons out of lemon aid every time there is trouble.

911 is emblematic certainly of how we are managed, manipulated and controlled to advance the imperial agenda of TPTB... but it is not necessarily emblematic of a vast conspiratorial approach to every single event in history. Shit happens and they are prepared for it. They even create their little events when it suits them. London 7/7 seems to be just that.

Did these guys realize how valuable terrorism could be to them post 911 if it moved from the third world to the industrial centers of the West? You betcha. And they are not going to let a good thing go. Whether they planned 9/11 or not, they saw how easily it was to exploit it... perhaps how effective their response plans were. Everyone knew Pearl Harbor was a game changer and got the isolationist Americans to run and recruit to fight overseas. Of course this became a model of public sentiment management for a war. Many will say that Pearl Harbor was a MIHOP or a LIHOP but the result was we got war and the MIC partied like it was 1999.

Remember the BS in Grenada where RR told us the USSR was building forward bases and we had to go in and destroy them and protect a handful or med students? Only the rational in the USA saw through this sort of BS. These guys understand fasle flags. Reichstag was a simply patsy starting a fire... worked like a charm. These SOBs know from their psychological research and polling how to play the people.

Is blow back real or just a BS? Does terrorism exist or not? Will TPTB act opportunistically at every turn or not? TPTB didn't have to run 911 as a operation... they only had to let it happen and maybe help it along so that they could advance their agenda. Terrorists ARE their best buds. Without them they would be hunting for a new enemy. It worked for a decade, but the people are turning against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan... more soldiers are killing themselves than being killed in the battlefield. Recruitment is off and so stop loss is how they keep the ranks filled. They are hunting for a new disaster to control the people... How about the financial collapse? You don't think it would lead TPTB to abandon capitalism and create a more equitable system? Hell no... We may be seeing the return of real feudalism... we're almost there now.

I think we agree on who is managing response and running PR... but perhaps less so on the overarching conspiratorial nature of world events. Was JFK a conspiracy? You betcha and it was covered up too. The lawlessness worked. They got their Vietnam War... didn't they? And the nuclear arms race .. didn't they?

They work in the shadows and we may never know...