Michael Piper and Final Judgment

[Seamus Coogan]

Well Mark is still floundering around here. Big F'ing deal Kennedy exchanged words with Gurion? He said the same thing to his replacement. Eisenhower dealt with the Israeli's far more harshly than Kennedy ever had to. Did Eisenhower wind up dead? I mean how many letters did Kennedy send around the world discussing nuclear non proliferation not to mention acknowledge divergent peace accords? If Mark was truly a researcher, rather than a one shot pony he'd look into all manner of Kennedy's foreign policy. He'd look into Cuba (a rather big issue for one). To focus on Ben Gurion and Kennedy, is thus rather hilarious. I could post addendum numerous links and so on proving my points. You still wouldn't agree. The big problem as said is you are still floundering around with Dimona when there are a number of other issues I have pointed out. If you cannot leap this first hurdle, I doubt you will be able to confront the myriad other problems Piper has. Sigh!

[Mark Stapleton]

What matters is that the Israeli's knew he couldn't stop them. Their programme was already a fact of life, a reality, and needed no US inputs as they had all they needed already. Ergo, they had no reason to assassinate him because they had what they wanted and he could do nothing about it and they Israelis knew it even if Kennedy thought otherwise. Kennedy would just have to suck it up. Just as some do today.

Maybe Israel knew he couldn't stop them, but the point is they didn't want him to know . That's why they concealed the underground reprocessing plant from the inspectors. They didn't want anyone to know.

Kennedy had been badgering them for years about their nuclear intentions. They were involved in crucial negotiations with the US for the purchase of missiles and jets. They gave repeated (false) assurances to Kennedy that they would not acquire a nuclear capability.

The last thing Israel wanted was a major diplomatic confrontation with the US. That's why they kept obfuscating and putting off the comprehensive inspections Kennedy had demanded in 1963. They succeeded. There were no inspections in 1963. They barely got away with the inspection in 1962. The hosts had shortened it to a mere 45 minutes.

So they did the clever thing and kept putting him off until they could put him six feet under.

After that it was cruisy. They had their very own glove puppet in the WH. Just 2 weeks after Kennedy's death they suddenly announced to the WH they were ready to agree to another inspection. And I think LBJ helped Israel out when they had a spot of bother with the USS Liberty in 1967, didn't he?

[Magda Hassan]

What matters is that the Israeli's knew he couldn't stop them. Their programme was already a fact of life, a reality, and needed no US inputs as they had all they needed already. Ergo, they had no reason to assassinate him because they had what they wanted and he could do nothing about it and they Israelis knew it even if Kennedy thought otherwise. Kennedy would just have to suck it up. Just as some do today.

Maybe Israel knew he couldn't stop them, but the point is they didn't want him to know . That's why they concealed the underground reprocessing plant from the inspectors. They didn't want anyone to know.

Kennedy had been badgering them for years about their nuclear intentions. They were involved in crucial negotiations with the US for the purchase of missiles and jets. They gave repeated (false) assurances to Kennedy that they would not acquire a nuclear capability.

The last thing Israel wanted was a major diplomatic confrontation with the US. That's why they kept obfuscating and putting off the comprehensive inspections Kennedy had demanded in 1963. They succeeded. There where no inspections in 1963. They barely got away with the inspection in 1962. The hosts had shortened it to a mere 45 minutes.

So they did the clever thing and kept putting him off until they could put him six feet under.

After that it was cruisy. They had their very own glove puppet in the WH. Just 2 weeks after Kennedy's death they suddenly announced to the WH they were ready to agree to another inspection. And I think LBJ helped Israel out when they had a spot of bother with the USS Liberty in 1967, didn't he?

This is all supposition on your part Mark. All fantasy. No facts. Not reflected by any known reality. Nor based in the reality of the politics of the region of the day.

The French knew it was for weapons. The US had to know as well. They are stupid but not so stupid as that. Nor are the Israelis so stupid as to assume he didn't know. Even if they don't want to put it all in writing and confirm it all. In any case the US would operate from the worst case scenario. Kennedy was no threat. They needed no permission from him. The inspections were just a show a pretence. They didn't have to do them anyway. If they said 'No" they would have lost some funding but others would have stepped in including the diaspora. And it wasn't big money in those days. That sort of money didn't roll in until after the 1967 war. Kennedy may have called them on their programme and he'd still not be able to do any thing except possibly embarrass them but they seem incapable of embarrassment. There is no way Kennedy or any US president was going to abandon them, regardless of what they do or don't do because it was in the US, and others, interest to have Israel there. And Israel knows this. They haven't complied with a single UN resolution. Why would they comply with inspections for some thing they have no intention of abandoning? They'd happily go through the motions though and Kennedy would just have to deal with it. They didn't have to put any one under. Not even close.

As for LBJ, sure they had a better ride with him. But so what? Good for them.

[Magda Hassan]

I also think you underestimate the Arab position and over estimate the Israeli position at the time. Yes, their nuclear programme was not anything like that in Israel. But it was a threat of an arms race in the region. There was much pressure to keep the Arabs on side or to at least keep them from the Soviet sphere of influence which was very appealing to some nations. The Atoms for Peace programme was used as a political tool to keep countries with in the US sphere. Arab nationalism and socialism were very wide spread in the area at the time. It was also just after the Suez Crisis and before the 6 day war so Israel didn't have all that mythology around it yet. It was just some pissant country on the Mediterranean Sea where some Jews went to live after the war surrounded by Arabs. Albeit with the fairly good and resourceful brains trust but more chutzpah than substance.

The Arabs didn't have a nuclear program. None. Zero.

Kennedy knew this. If one had existed, I'm sure he would have exerted great pressure on them to desist.

The rest is all very interesting but not relevant to what is being discussed here is it?

They were certainly exploring the options. And they didn't have to be loaded with nuclear bombs to be a power in the region. A unified Arab world would have sufficed. And besides, if they had sided with the Soviets, as a few of them did, they had all of their arsenal on their side. Checkmate.

You over state the Israeli case and understate the Arabs. This is Nasser's time after all. And they got rid of the French in Algeria.

[Mark Stapleton]

This is all supposition on your part Mark. All fantasy. No facts. Not reflected by any known reality. Nor based in the reality of the politics of the region of the day.

Of course it's supposition Magda. This is why Kennedy was eliminated, in my opinion. I can't prove it. You can't disprove it.

As for being all fantasy and no facts, you know that isn't true.

[Albert Doyle]

This is all supposition on your part Mark. All fantasy. No facts. Not reflected by any known reality. Nor based in the reality of the politics of the region of the day.

Just the opposite. Those around Ben-Gurion said he was driven to such stress by his nuclear negotiations with Kennedy that they were worried about his mental stability and he was forced out of office. Pretty strong influence for what you call a fantasy. Piper says Kennedy's letters to Ben-Gurion are still classified and unavailable to the public.

I don't see how people could try to minimize what was going on here. Kennedy had the power to control Israel's weapons. Israel lied, built false walls in their facilities, and even constructed an entirely new complex just to get around Kennedy's inspectors. Me thinks some people have no idea what was written in Piper's book.

As part of the detente Kennedy was illustrated as practicing in The Unspeakable he tried to keep Israel from developing nuclear weapons and upping the ante in the Middle East. He knew that the current disproportionate imbalance would occur and Israel would become more bold in its actions against the arabs, forcing them to the Soviets and creating a more polarized and heightened conflict.

I'm sorry Magda, but what you write is entirely untrue. Ask Vanunu if it is fantasy.

[Albert Doyle]

Well Mark is still floundering around here. Big F'ing deal Kennedy exchanged words with Gurion? He said the same thing to his replacement. Eisenhower dealt with the Israeli's far more harshly than Kennedy ever had to. Did Eisenhower wind up dead?

No, Eisenhower ended up making a rare direct warning against the Military Industrial Complex as president to the American people. Eisenhower was sending the message that the president was no longer in control of the nation. Which side, my good man Seamus, was Israel on in that conflict between the Military Industrial Complex and presidential control?


With all respect Seamus, how many of those other mundane exchanges with foreign leaders forced them out of office with a nervous breakdown and protest that JFK threatened the future of their nation? How many of those other countries benefited enormously from JFK's death and established a grotesque AIPAC lobby sitting smack in the middle of our government and had book written about them by Mearsheimer and Walt? Or had their exchanges classified and buried?


Which other nation that JFK had mundane nuclear negotiations with was so strongly connected to the Meyer Lansky, Tibor Rosenbaum dirty money laundry network for CIA black ops and Clay Shaw's Permindex which reflected so strong right back to the New Orleans mob Trade Mart underground ?


There are two landmark points of origin here. One is the birth of Israel and its coincidence with the birth of CIA. This point marked the origin of what Eisenhower was warning against and created the Mediterranean French Connection underground and Banque De Credit Internacional. Next was the point of origin for Israel's US support that is factually traceable (as Piper shows) right back to JFK's assassination.

[Mark Stapleton]

As for LBJ, sure they had a better ride with him. But so what? Good for them.

Yeah Magda.

Good for them.

[Seamus Coogan]

This is all supposition on your part Mark. All fantasy. No facts. Not reflected by any known reality. Nor based in the reality of the politics of the region of the day.

Just the opposite. Those around Ben-Gurion said he was driven to such stress by his nuclear negotiations with Kennedy that they were worried about his mental stability and he was forced out of office. Pretty strong influence for what you call a fantasy. Piper says Kennedy's letters to Ben-Gurion are still classified and unavailable to the public.

I don't see how people could try to minimize what was going on here. Kennedy had the power to control Israel's weapons. Israel lied, built false walls in their facilities, and even constructed an entirely new complex just to get around Kennedy's inspectors. Me thinks some people have no idea what was written in Piper's book.

As part of the detente Kennedy was illustrated as practicing in The Unspeakable he tried to keep Israel from developing nuclear weapons and upping the ante in the Middle East. He knew that the current disproportionate imbalance would occur and Israel would become more bold in its actions against the arabs, forcing them to the Soviets and creating a more polarized and heightened conflict.

I'm sorry Magda, but what you write is entirely untrue.

Al mate cmon! Let's go and ask Jim Douglas who he believes killed JFK shall we mate? It sure as hell won't be Israel, nor do I think he'd opt for Israeli involvement. This is where people have to be careful bro, because you were here with me and CD when we gave JF a bit of a poke for imbibing Douglas' work with his own crazed ideas concerning Phil Nelson. One swallow does not a summer make my friend.

[Albert Doyle]

Al mate cmon! Let's go and ask Jim Douglas who he believes killed JFK shall we mate? It sure as hell won't be Israel, nor do I think he'd opt for Israeli involvement. This is where people have to be careful bro, because you were here with me and CD when we gave JF a bit of a poke for imbibing Douglas' work with his own crazed ideas concerning Phil Nelson. One swallow does not a summer make my friend.

Forgive me Seamus, but you are offering a very rough version of academic inspection vs the high level of facts Piper has gathered in Final Judgment. If you read what I wrote carefully nowhere in there did I suggest "Israel killed JFK". Israel fits very nicely into Charles' Sponsor - facilitator framework. What is important here is how the CIA/Israel underground network is so closely tied into the assassination and its main players. So much so as to possibly explain Echevarria's comment.


We don't need to go to Douglass, we just need to answer the facts, in my opinion. I think some have shielded themselves from uncomfortable political realities and aren't familiar with what was exactly written in Final Judgment.