Harvey and Lee vs. Richard Case Nagell

[Phil Dragoo]

Who killed John F. Kennedy?

KGB agents.

Well, if Frank Sturgis says so. . . .

[Jan Klimkowski]

Any and all information coming from East of Warsaw is suspect.
THEY taught US about the manchurian candidate/patsy... peeking into Oswald's brain should have revealed "Wiring MADE in the USSR"

David - please expand.

Are you suggesting Manchurian origin with a fine White Russian gloss?

[David Josephs]

Any and all information coming from East of Warsaw is suspect.
THEY taught US about the manchurian candidate/patsy... peeking into Oswald's brain should have revealed "Wiring MADE in the USSR"

David - please expand.

Are you suggesting Manchurian origin with a fine White Russian gloss?

Precisely... the USSR had been working with these tactics and techniques for years... which resulted in the development of fighting "fire with fire" techniques by the CIA

Lauren
While I can explain somewhat... there is an awful lot to find on the internet... I have both books on PDF, I still think they are findable to download.
He even warned us about Nosenko, what he would say and why....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoliy_Golitsyn


New Lies for Old

In 1984, Golitsyn published the book New Lies For Old,[SUP][13][/SUP] wherein he predicted the collapse of the communist bloc orchestrated from above. He warned about a long-term deception strategy designed to lull the West into a false sense of security, and finally economically cripple and diplomatically isolate the United States. Among other things, Golitsyn stated:

• "The 'liberalization' [in the Soviet Union] would be spectacular and impressive. Formal pronouncements might be made about a reduction in the communist party's role; its monopoly would be apparently curtailed."
  
• "If [liberalization] should be extended to East Germany, demolition of the Berlin Wall might even be contemplated."
  
• "The European Parliament might become an all-European socialist parliament with representation from the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. 'Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals' would turn out to be a neutral, socialist Europe."
  

Angleton and Golitsyn reportedly sought the assistance of William F. Buckley, Jr. (who once worked for the CIA) in writing New Lies for Old. Buckley refused but later went on to write a novel about Angleton, Spytime: The Undoing of James Jesus Angleton.[SUP][14][/SUP]


The Perestroika Deception

In 1995 he published a book containing purported memoranda attributed to Golitsyn entitled The Perestroika Deception which claimed:

• "The [Soviet] strategists are concealing the secret coordination that exists and will continue between Moscow and the 'nationalist' leaders of [the] 'independent' republics."
  
• "The power of the KGB remains as great as ever... Talk of cosmetic changes in the KGB and its supervision is deliberately publicized to support the myth of 'democratization' of the Soviet political system."
  
• "Scratch these new, instant Soviet 'democrats,' 'anti-Communists,' and 'nationalists' who have sprouted out of nowhere, and underneath will be found secret Party members or KGB agents."
  

[Greg Burnham]

[snip]

Khrushchev is said to have annulled the plan, but Soviet agents were unable to reach Oswald before Khrushchev's annulment order could be executed.

I don't know who you are quoting there, David, but that is not what Pacepa asserts. Unless, the phrase "reach Oswald" in this context means "find and terminate Oswald".
The author contends not that Oswald was unaware of the abort order, but rather, that he chose to ignore the abort order. Therefore, if we are to believe this fanciful tale
it means that Khrushchev originally had ordered a hit on JFK, but due to his hand having been exposed in similar wet operation activities, he decided to abort the plan.
The abort order was successfully transmitted to Oswald, but Oswald chose to ignore it. The only recourse from Moscow would have been to "get to Oswald" before he could
complete the mission and prevent him from executing it by taking him out. Which begs us to ask: If Ruby was a Zionist, formerly NKVD, with current ties to Moscow, was he
remiss in his duties by having failed to prevent Oswald from killing Kennedy, which would explain his anxiety leading up to his finally fulfilling his mission albeit after-the-fact?
Ruby's belated action would indeed have prevented Oswald from implicating Moscow in a court room. But, would there be a benefit to Zionism in the exchange? IOW: Did Ruby
fail to prevent the assassination in order to thwart KGB, but succeed in silencing Oswald after the fact in order to serve Zionistic interests?

[Lauren Johnson]

The Golitsyn info you posted reminds me, tangentially of Guido Preparata's theories about Soviet Russia: he speculates that Soviet Russia was the creation of a complex Anglo-American plan to isolate Germany from any possibility an alignment with Russia. In so doing, he notes that Russia consistently avoided direct confrontation with the West. Russia "...appeared to mimic the slow motions of an enormous circus bear, whose tamer was elsewhere...." (p.264)

Fletcher Prouty believed the U-2 affair was coordinated between The Secret Team and its Russian counterparts.

Perhaps Golitsyn tells part but not all of the story.

[David Josephs]

[snip]

Khrushchev is said to have annulled the plan, but Soviet agents were unable to reach Oswald before Khrushchev's annulment order could be executed.

I don't know who you are quoting there, David, but that is not what Pacepa asserts. Unless, the phrase "reach Oswald" in this context means "find and terminate Oswald".
The author contends not that Oswald was unaware of the abort order, but rather, that he chose to ignore the abort order. Therefore, if we are to believe this fanciful tale
it means that Khrushchev originally had ordered a hit on JFK, but due to his hand having been exposed in similar wet operation activities, he decided to abort the plan.
The abort order was successfully transmitted to Oswald, but Oswald chose to ignore it. The only recourse from Moscow would have been to "get to Oswald" before he could
complete the mission and prevent him from executing it by taking him out. Which begs us to ask: If Ruby was a Zionist, formerly NKVD, with current ties to Moscow, was he
remiss in his duties by having failed to prevent Oswald from killing Kennedy, which would explain his anxiety leading up to his finally fulfilling his mission albeit after-the-fact?
Ruby's belated action would indeed have prevented Oswald from implicating Moscow in a court room. But, would there be a benefit to Zionism in the exchange? IOW: Did Ruby
fail to prevent the assassination in order to thwart KGB, but succeed in silencing Oswald after the fact in order to serve Zionistic interests?

Sorry Greg... that's a wiki quote....

How exactly would Ruby get info that the Russian leader wanted to abort the assassination? Remember Nagell was convinced it would be in September.
Wouldn't this also require that Chicago and Tampa were also KGB backed? (Those appeared much more like a mafia/CIA type plan... and I NEED to ask if you know... who was the PATSY in Tampa going to be? Where they ALL potential Russians? I fail to see how Valle could be associated with the Russians... but then again... that's why I come to these forums... to find out...)

I have a very difficult time believing Khrushchev would order such a hit... Lulling the WEST to sleep was partly his plan... what better way than to keep talks of detente alive, the softening of the communist threat, all the while building it up via the counter intelligence sections...

To get Oswald actually shooting the president requires the dismissal of an awful lot of contradictory evidence. Not to mention a "trail of evidence" that was created that leads right to his door...

So one asks..."Who would the KGB want Oswald associated with, in this grand plan?" ALL of the evidence points to Cuban involvement with a taste of Mafia and rogue CIA thrown in, plus some right wing nuts for good measure (which, imo would be the BEST group to lay the assassination on as this creates even greater internal strife within the battling Civil rights process... one of Sun Tzu's tactics.

US attacks Cuba, Russia/KGB can escalate their "war".... which is what LBJ's "handlers" would want so everyone makes money and the fight comes to the western hemisphere.
Covering up CUBAN involvement to avoid WWIII creates the exact opposite result desired...
Vietnam moves forward as planned...
The USA builds up its forces within a stone's throw from USSR, the drug money POURS in, the MIC is making money hand over fist...

How does Pacepa reconcile the actual act itself and the reality that Oswald was more than likely in the lunchroom at the time?
Unless we have LEE up there ...

[Greg Burnham]

Fletcher Prouty believed the U-2 affair was coordinated between The Secret Team and its Russian counterparts.

Perhaps Golitsyn tells part but not all of the story.

Lauren,

I spoke extensively and often to Fletch about these matters. I have, of course, read everything he has written. I
am unaware of him ever saying to me, anyone else, or writing that he believed: "The U-2 affair was coordinated
between The Secret Team and its Russian counterparts."

Can you direct me to the book and page number on which such a statement was made? I just checked the Secret
Team, just in case I had missed it, but couldn't find anything like that there.

Perhaps you are taking a bit of creative license?
However, what he does say about that U-2 flight is quite revelatory:

Gary Powers Flight Was Sabotaged To Fail!


The Lockheed U-2 aerial reconnaissance aircraft was ordered after meetings that took place in the Pentagon between Kelly Johnson of Lockheed, Gen. Ken Bergquist of the Air Force and Gen. Charles Cabel, Deputy Director of the CIA in late 1954, and into 1955.

An Air Force officer in the Pentagon, in the same office as I, worked with them on this special project. Therefore for all practical purposes the U-2 was an Air Force aircraft, and was covered for clandestine reconnaissance purposes by the CIA. As a result of National Security Council Directive #5412 the U.S. Military Services were prohibited from operating clandestine activities. I was responsible for providing the military support for other military aircraft in a similar, for the clandestine activities of the CIA and under CIA cover.

By 1960 President Eisenhower's biggest wish was to end his presidential service with a massive world around "Crusade for Peace". For example, more than one million people had gathered in New Delhi to honor his visit to India.

A significant step along this crusade was to be a High-Power Summit Conference in Paris on May 1, 1960 between Eisenhower, Macmillan, DeGaulle and Khrushchev; to be followed by the most massive of all meetings with Eisenhower as a guest of Khrushchev in Moscow in mid summer 1960. This was to be the goal of his "Crusade for Peace."

Among the "Powers that be" there were those who did not favor that close collaboration between those leaders at that time. They took action to interfere with this plan for a "Summit Conference" and for its Moscow follow-up... in the following manner.

Sometime earlier, a CIA scheduled U-2 had made a "belly" landing near the CIA U-2 base, Atsugi, Japan. Quite "incidentally" this was the U-2 base where a young U.S. Marine, Lee Oswald, had been assigned.

Because the U-2 had not been seriously damaged it was shipped back to Lockheed for repair in California. Later it was returned to service and it "just happened" to be one of the available U-2's on the flight-line of the Peshawar air base in Pakistan that morning of May 1, 1960 when Captain Gary Powers was selected to fly it across the Soviet Union.

We know now that during its preparation for this flight this U-2 had been stripped of its "TOP SECRET" Lundahl aerial reconnaissance camera. (That camera was too valuable to lose on a flight over the Soviet Union.) Furthermore, we have learned that when Captain Powers was given his pre-flight briefing and his medical exam, and other orders he then dressed in the special flight suit for U-2 pilots that had no pockets and no identifying labels of any kind. And, we now know that after his landing, yes... landing, not crash, near Sverdlovsk, the Soviets discovered, packed in his parachute, between the seat and the folded chute, all of his identification papers and such. He even had valuables ostensibly to trade for assistance if captured. (The list is too long; but he had a whole bag full of identification and other gear that is prohibited to "spy" pilots. This list with photos is available.) He was uninjured, and his plane had been only slightly damaged by a "belly" landing.

On May 30, 1960 Mr. Allen Dulles, Director, Central Intelligence appeared before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and, under oath, stated that the U-2 had not been shot dawn. It is well known that if the U-2 had been hit by a missile or gunfire at its service altitude it would have exploded in that thin air.

Powers himself has said that he felt a rumble toward the rear of the aircraft, and that his engine quit. Even U-2 pilots in those days had not been told that their extremely high altitude operation required a special pure hydrogen additive to their more ordinary fuel. If the U-2 ran out of this hydrogen additive, at altitude, the engine would flare out and it could not be re-started until it had descended to a much lower altitude.

Powers knew that and began to let down, and then found that he was surrounded, at the lower altitude, by Soviet interceptors. He had but one choice...LAND. He did, and survived to tell his story.

This is an interesting story because so much of what we have heard and read has been contrived to cover actual events. For example: once the Paris Summit Conference of May 1, 1960 had been scheduled the CIA was ordered to ground all "Over" flights of Communist territory - worldwide". The U-2's were grounded. I was responsible for supporting a large number of "over" flights" primarily in Asia to support the Tibetans who were being invaded by the Chinese, and to support major lower-level reconnaissance programs operating out of Taiwan, Thailand, and a few other places. Despite the fact that many of our flights were solely humanitarian, especially for the Khambas in Eastern Tibet, my special request, to the National Security Council, for permission to continue those flights was denied until after the Paris meetings.

This was a strict and blanket order to us all. With that in mind, who was it then with the authority to "order the Powers U-2 flight"? It had to have been ordered from a very high echelon of the true power structure above the customary military or civilian elements of the government.

Think back:

a) Who (used here in the plural: WHO?) ordered that crashed U-2 in Japan to be repaired and to be refitted?

b) Who knew so much about the U-2 that they knew that the U-2 was equipped with the finest, and most valuable high-altitude camera, the "Lundahl"?

c) Who had the authority to order that precious camera to be saved in favor of a standard U.S.Air Force model that was used on May 1, 1960?

d) Who knew enough about the CIA-operated U-2s to know that they functioned at extreme altitude on a mix of regular jet fuel and pure hydrogen?

e) Who ordered the hydrogen bottle (like a fire extinguisher) to be half-filled, or half-empty?

f) Who was familiar enough with U-2 operations to know that all U-2 pilots before take-off had been stripped to the bone, and dressed in a specially made flight suit with no pockets, etc.?

g) Who was able to have someone else assemble Powers personal "pocket" belongings and other selected items such as gold rings, identification, etc. and pack them between the seat of Powers' chute and its folded fabric below?

h) who had the authority to set this whole train of events that involved so many other skilled people, in motion early that morning from Peshawar, Pakistan?

Scenario by L. Fletcher Prouty and based upon considerable "Over Flight" operations and support experience, 1955-1963.

[Greg Burnham]

[snip]

Khrushchev is said to have annulled the plan, but Soviet agents were unable to reach Oswald before Khrushchev's annulment order could be executed.

I don't know who you are quoting there, David, but that is not what Pacepa asserts. Unless, the phrase "reach Oswald" in this context means "find and terminate Oswald".
The author contends not that Oswald was unaware of the abort order, but rather, that he chose to ignore the abort order. Therefore, if we are to believe this fanciful tale
it means that Khrushchev originally had ordered a hit on JFK, but due to his hand having been exposed in similar wet operation activities, he decided to abort the plan.
The abort order was successfully transmitted to Oswald, but Oswald chose to ignore it. The only recourse from Moscow would have been to "get to Oswald" before he could
complete the mission and prevent him from executing it by taking him out. Which begs us to ask: If Ruby was a Zionist, formerly NKVD, with current ties to Moscow, was he
remiss in his duties by having failed to prevent Oswald from killing Kennedy, which would explain his anxiety leading up to his finally fulfilling his mission albeit after-the-fact?
Ruby's belated action would indeed have prevented Oswald from implicating Moscow in a court room. But, would there be a benefit to Zionism in the exchange? IOW: Did Ruby
fail to prevent the assassination in order to thwart KGB, but succeed in silencing Oswald after the fact in order to serve Zionistic interests?

Sorry Greg... that's a wiki quote....

How exactly would Ruby get info that the Russian leader wanted to abort the assassination? Remember Nagell was convinced it would be in September.
Wouldn't this also require that Chicago and Tampa were also KGB backed? (Those appeared much more like a mafia/CIA type plan... and I NEED to ask if you know... who was the PATSY in Tampa going to be? Where they ALL potential Russians? I fail to see how Valle could be associated with the Russians... but then again... that's why I come to these forums... to find out...)

I have a very difficult time believing Khrushchev would order such a hit... Lulling the WEST to sleep was partly his plan... what better way than to keep talks of detente alive, the softening of the communist threat, all the while building it up via the counter intelligence sections...

To get Oswald actually shooting the president requires the dismissal of an awful lot of contradictory evidence. Not to mention a "trail of evidence" that was created that leads right to his door...

So one asks..."Who would the KGB want Oswald associated with, in this grand plan?" ALL of the evidence points to Cuban involvement with a taste of Mafia and rogue CIA thrown in, plus some right wing nuts for good measure (which, imo would be the BEST group to lay the assassination on as this creates even greater internal strife within the battling Civil rights process... one of Sun Tzu's tactics.

US attacks Cuba, Russia/KGB can escalate their "war".... which is what LBJ's "handlers" would want so everyone makes money and the fight comes to the western hemisphere.
Covering up CUBAN involvement to avoid WWIII creates the exact opposite result desired...
Vietnam moves forward as planned...
The USA builds up its forces within a stone's throw from USSR, the drug money POURS in, the MIC is making money hand over fist...

How does Pacepa reconcile the actual act itself and the reality that Oswald was more than likely in the lunchroom at the time?
Unless we have LEE up there ...

Just for clarity, I do not buy Pacepa's story. I was simply pondering it...within this and another thread's context.

[David Josephs]

[snip]

Khrushchev is said to have annulled the plan, but Soviet agents were unable to reach Oswald before Khrushchev's annulment order could be executed.

I don't know who you are quoting there, David, but that is not what Pacepa asserts. Unless, the phrase "reach Oswald" in this context means "find and terminate Oswald".
The author contends not that Oswald was unaware of the abort order, but rather, that he chose to ignore the abort order. Therefore, if we are to believe this fanciful tale
it means that Khrushchev originally had ordered a hit on JFK, but due to his hand having been exposed in similar wet operation activities, he decided to abort the plan.
The abort order was successfully transmitted to Oswald, but Oswald chose to ignore it. The only recourse from Moscow would have been to "get to Oswald" before he could
complete the mission and prevent him from executing it by taking him out. Which begs us to ask: If Ruby was a Zionist, formerly NKVD, with current ties to Moscow, was he
remiss in his duties by having failed to prevent Oswald from killing Kennedy, which would explain his anxiety leading up to his finally fulfilling his mission albeit after-the-fact?
Ruby's belated action would indeed have prevented Oswald from implicating Moscow in a court room. But, would there be a benefit to Zionism in the exchange? IOW: Did Ruby
fail to prevent the assassination in order to thwart KGB, but succeed in silencing Oswald after the fact in order to serve Zionistic interests?

Sorry Greg... that's a wiki quote....

How exactly would Ruby get info that the Russian leader wanted to abort the assassination? Remember Nagell was convinced it would be in September.
Wouldn't this also require that Chicago and Tampa were also KGB backed? (Those appeared much more like a mafia/CIA type plan... and I NEED to ask if you know... who was the PATSY in Tampa going to be? Where they ALL potential Russians? I fail to see how Valle could be associated with the Russians... but then again... that's why I come to these forums... to find out...)

I have a very difficult time believing Khrushchev would order such a hit... Lulling the WEST to sleep was partly his plan... what better way than to keep talks of detente alive, the softening of the communist threat, all the while building it up via the counter intelligence sections...

To get Oswald actually shooting the president requires the dismissal of an awful lot of contradictory evidence. Not to mention a "trail of evidence" that was created that leads right to his door...

So one asks..."Who would the KGB want Oswald associated with, in this grand plan?" ALL of the evidence points to Cuban involvement with a taste of Mafia and rogue CIA thrown in, plus some right wing nuts for good measure (which, imo would be the BEST group to lay the assassination on as this creates even greater internal strife within the battling Civil rights process... one of Sun Tzu's tactics.

US attacks Cuba, Russia/KGB can escalate their "war".... which is what LBJ's "handlers" would want so everyone makes money and the fight comes to the western hemisphere.
Covering up CUBAN involvement to avoid WWIII creates the exact opposite result desired...
Vietnam moves forward as planned...
The USA builds up its forces within a stone's throw from USSR, the drug money POURS in, the MIC is making money hand over fist...

How does Pacepa reconcile the actual act itself and the reality that Oswald was more than likely in the lunchroom at the time?
Unless we have LEE up there ...

Just for clarity, I do not buy Pacepa's story. I was simply pondering it...within this and another thread's context.

No worries Greg.... Just a thought exercise that may lead to other ideas is all... There is simply too much going against such an idea...
yet now knowing who was pulling which string.. the herky-jerky motions of Oswald from March 63 on suggest a number of players pulling in a variety of directions.

DJ

[Lauren Johnson]

Can you direct me to the book and page number on which such a statement was made? I just checked the Secret
Team, just in case I had missed it, but couldn't find anything like that there.

Perhaps you are taking a bit of creative license?

Creative license? Just a big load of false memory syndrome. I've listened to Fletch's audio interviews, and I probably combined that with other things. But I do suspect there is some kind of trans-national cooperation going on. But St. Prouty did not say that. I stand corrected. Again.