Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis

[Jeffrey Orling]

Because of a political mindset that assumes massive malfeasance on the part of an un-named yet pervasive shadow control group

So where does LIHOP fit into this thought? Is it malfeasance, the performance of an illegal act? Or is it misfeasance, the inadequate performance of a lawful act? Or is it nonfeasance, the neglect of duty or the failure to perform a required act? You have posited a large agglomeration of government, security, military, and private concerns all knowing that war is the way to go and also knowing that it is best to not stop a terrorist attack if one were to find it out. This sentence describes your position to a tee.

Lauren,

I don't have a simple position about 9/11. It's layers and layers of meaning. Lots of things going in and coming out.

I think that the neocons and company were wanting to go agreessive and sought to dominate the world... why? for empire reasons.. wealth and so forth. Their military pals see the world as a place to wage war and conquer... a convenient marriage... greed and force.

I think that there is much incompetence, waste, fraud and abuse. 9/11 would reveal all of this in how these slackers performed or didn't. That had to be kept hidden

I think the usual old boys networks played cover up so per usual there was no accountability for wrong doing or incompetence. We saw this again in the mortgage crisis, the financial meltdown and so forth... anyone go to jail? Who got helped when the sh*t hit the fan?

I think the MIC has a co dependency thing going on with the enemy du jour... we don't have a real military adversary so we need to make it seem as if we do.. even the USSR was not coming to conquer the US. Terrorism is a handy one... it is everywhere... the world's a battlefield. Hard sell unless the enemy actually attacks you... eh? Do Americans really care if some one attacks our warships nosing around the world as if it's their backyard? No... or some housing complex for oil workers in Riyad? na... opportunists who took a risk living amongst the crazies... Or marines in a barracks in Beruit... soldiers expect to be targets of violence. But hit us in the workplace... going about our biz.. scares everyone sh*tless. Now we're talking.. we've got an enemy WHOOPDIDO!!!!!!! Everyone knows that.. you attack us and out attack dogs are unleashed. Doggies know it., PNAC knows it, guys in bars know it, gangs know it. Go ahead... test me.. make me do it! How much longer can the MIC justify sucking down the treasures with no enemy? When USSR folded people demanded a peace benefit... drop the DOD budget and build buses and schools... MIC was not happy with that. Cold war ended... they tried star wars for a decade... complete non starter... Who was going to fight us up in space? Are they serious? Waster billions but they actually put out contracts. GWOT is the real thing... People can get in line behind THAT sort of security... and sign up to kick butt... rah rah patriotism... don't take away mu Big Mac and smell phone. These guys gamed this for years... they watched the terrorist thing cooking as the Izzies squeezed the Palestinians. We had no Palestinians. Native Americans were Americanized and on their reservations and drinking... not bombing. FBI took care of the one who got uppity... AIM.

Izzies are our friends... our best friends... they even gave us our new enemies - islamic terrorists... the friend of my enemy is my enemy... Intel guys were told to do foreign policy in the early 60s... not intel told us they would do it and do it on the sly and we pay for it... On the sly means criminal stuff... killing, assassination, drugs, guns, bribes, blackmail...mafia type stuff... get it done and no effin around. No one talks. Elected governments fell and our puppets popped up... all is good. AND we get to practice counter insurgency when those ungrateful serfs begin to rebel. We train em and we go down and get some hands on killing and terror training. We get to use their tactics too... knock off Ortega that stinking commie. This is fun!

We need to expand the theater of operations... Let's go for the Caucuses (energy Caucuses that is) and the ME where it's producing and controlled by pesky OPEC. That has to change. Meanwhile MIC is cashing out supply weapons to our puppets to keep the serfs quiet. Foreign aid... weapons bought from the MIC... the money never leave the US... straight to Northrop... the planes go out and our pilots are paid to fly them... win win win And as a bonus we are safe as a big in a rug.

Pushing hard on the serfs and sending out weapons to kill them pisses them off. Not very xtian way to treat folks. Serfs have no where to go. USSR ain't no more. China is doing slave labor for America... EU is trying to be a democratic isolationist socialist haven... NATO... the US military club is the dues they must pay because the US saved their asses from the Nazis. Our Nazis are more reasonable... They go after the weak third world first...

Let's cut to the chase here...why would these idiots try to stage a massive complex conspiracy sans rehearsal when they knew it was only a matter of time before the Izzies enemies would be our real enemies. Bennie knew it and he jumped for joy... He wanted US to take out his enemies. Every intel knew something was cooking. They called it chatter. They couldn't wait... They had all the plans for roll of of the New American Century... USAPATRIOT act and all... flags and bumper stickers... freedom fries in the frier... They even practiced the attack everyone knew was coming. It wasn't going to be a landing on the beach in East Hampton.

Gladio was practice runs. Terrorism freaks people out... you can blame whomever because no one gets caught and there are no trials. Doesn;t matter who does it as much as how it is spun. The right acts claiming it's the left and the left becomes the bad guys... That works. No matter who does what grab the mic and tell the story and make it stick.

Neocons didn't want to stop an attack.. they wanted to wage a war... a huge never ending war. Once it began they could and would control the message. red yellow and green... take your shoes off and no shampoo on a plane nor a nail clipper... for your own good. Got it.

Skeered people are easy to push around. If they ain't skeered... tell em to be skeered. Lies work too... it's all good.

[Lauren Johnson]

Gladio was practice runs. Terrorism freaks people out... you can blame whomever because no one gets caught and there are no trials. Doesn;t matter who does it as much as how it is spun. The right acts claiming it's the left and the left becomes the bad guys... That works. No matter who does what grab the mic and tell the story and make it stick.

Of course, you do realize that Gladio was a MIHOP operation. And it was deep politics all the way. Parallel governmental structures. Run out of NATO. Other three letter orgs in on it. Cut outs. False fronts. And it was one big, organized, from the top, very successful psyop.

So why would such a strong tradition of top down psy ops suddenly have to vanish as these parallel deep structures with such a long history lay down and go dormant and just wait for something to happen.

Jeffrey, your "position" can't get out of its own way. You can't stand truthers except you are one. Your LIHOP dissolves into 'nobody decided anything' except when somebody decided to make a MIHOP out of what nobody decided not to do.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Gladio was practice runs. Terrorism freaks people out... you can blame whomever because no one gets caught and there are no trials. Doesn;t matter who does it as much as how it is spun. The right acts claiming it's the left and the left becomes the bad guys... That works. No matter who does what grab the mic and tell the story and make it stick.

Of course, you do realize that Gladio was a MIHOP operation. And it was deep politics all the way. Parallel governmental structures. Run out of NATO. Other three letter orgs in on it. Cut outs. False fronts. And it was one big, organized, from the top, very successful psyop.

So why would such a strong tradition of top down psy ops suddenly have to vanish as these parallel deep structures with such a long history lay down and go dormant and just wait for something to happen.

Jeffrey, your "position" can't get out of its own way. You can't stand truthers except you are one. Your LIHOP dissolves into 'nobody decided anything' except when somebody decided to make a MIHOP out of what nobody decided not to do.

I am interested in understand what happened... who isn't? We really never get to see the real deal.. only the PR and the official statements.

Gladio was created after WWII as a check by the right on the leftists who were being supported by the USSR. The left had popular support... and communists were and are a recognized party in Italy for sure. My deceased brother in law was involved in the communist party in Tuscany and was a marxist economist. The right of course fear the left and their fascist pro capitalist view of the world was diametrically opposed to the communists. In the US we had the idiotic red scare of HUAC... the right was on a hunt to get the left. And so intel decided to engage in a series of terrorist attacks blame it on the left to turn the people against the left and demand the state crack down on them. Nasty SOBs. They infiltrated the red brigades and the bider meinhof.

This strategy turned out to be rather effective especially when the truth of who did what was concealed by the right who were in power and it was not in their interest to reveal it. False flags have been used at times to create excuses for militarist adventurism. Terrorism by definition is meant to instill fear in the public. But fear of what or whom? The guys with the mic get to tell the story. In fact, the guys with the mic ALWAYS get to tell the story.

It's hard to deny hive mentality or group think. People identify with a group and share its values and goals and so forth. They don't have to read and rehearse talking points... only talking heads do that. All people inside the MIC partake in the same (more or less) hive behavior and thinking. In fact.. they all know who the enemy is... how could they not? When you are a hammer... every problem looks like a nail and you slam it as the hammer that you are.

Of course Gladio was a fascist series of MIHOPs... they've got the admissions and documents to prove it. And it's likely that the practice continues because intel is engaged in criminality and black ops and ALL CRIMINALS try to pin the blame on someone else... or at least have an alibi... but better to have some one else framed and that settles that. LHO was a patsy wasn't he? Having one was part of closing the book and dead ending the investigation... killing him AND Ruby etc.. made that so much easier. Destroy evidence and it makes solving the crime harder and less certain.

Remember when terrorist committed their crimes with a stated purpose or demand and did not hide who they were? Their demands were political or to free one of theirs who was captured. Never worked really and so the tactic was changed to shear unadulterated terror... why exchange hostages if they are going to kill you anyway? That changed terrorism. People with the mic get to tell the story no matter what happened who did want or why.

Terrorism and insurgencies DO exist. CIA etc. has counter terrorism and anti insurgency guys because they have to deal with it before it deals with them. But you can be damn certain that the fascists will never come down on right wing terrorists and blame the left for acts they didn't commit. People with the mic get to tell the story no matter what happened who did want or why.

The empire created an insurgency problem in her colonies. The natives were and continue to be restless. This is to be expected when you run an empire as our guys do. Gives our guys something to do... find em and kill em... set up stings and kill em and make sure the public is aware of these threats periodically. Why not expect a big attack? If someone can think it up... they will try. Bojinka was an old plot and it was known that one day some hijack plane attack would have to be met. They even gamed it each Fall.

Real or memorex? Hardly matters because it was the outcome which is the REAL horror--- militarism and war...and that comes from the empire not at the empire.

[Tony Szamboti]

First thanks for attempting to make sense of my cartoon. It's a cartoon and obviously not a depiction of the actual dynamics but suggests/shows how the gavity forces work as the structure degrades.

axial strength refers to the ability of a column to resist or support loads applied directly above (compression)

A column's axial strength is limited by its slenderness ration.. stout columns are stronger then slender ones. Too slender will buckle from their own weight.. meaning that as the unbraced length increases... a given column section weakens ie supports less load and thus is more subject to buckling (failure)

The arrows are meant to indicate the direction of the loads...

When a column is removed if a multistory structure the column above it has no support and can't couple the forces (loads) to the foundation and the earth. These loads are then redistributed to columns that are coupled. The load has not changed... it has to and does find other paths.

you weigh 100 pounds and when standing each food supports 50 pounds. If you stand on a scale with both feet it shows 100. If you lift one foot it STILL shows 100 because all the 100 pounds are resisted by one leg.

Now if you lift the heaviest thing you can... say your dog which weighs 50#... each leg is at its limit of 75 pounds. On the scale it shows 150.

If you try to stand on one leg... you collapse... your leg would *buckle* at the knee and you'd call down and you would likely fall in the direction of the missing or lifted leg.

The twin towers had many columns and they shared the load carrying and when the columns were destroyed and weakened the load sharing was shifted all about. This caused uneven stresses and even warping, torquing and distortion and eventually collapse when the capacity was eroded below loads imposed. The failure rapidly propagates one this happens... the structure does not fall at once... but the propagation can be very quick when as more and more load is carried by fewer and fewer columns. This also introduces some eccentricity and tilt of the falling top... as it's almost impossible to have a completely symmetrical force/load redistribution.

We know the core collapsed first because we see the antenna begin to sink into the top... and this was followed by the release but inside the entire core up there and the floors were already probably dropping. The facade hung together because of the nature of the structure... structures without internal stress do not fall apart or even distort... they sort of float (as in free fall) When they meet resistance or forces they yield to them in some manner.

The disconnected mass of the top floors is what drives down through the tower destroying it.

Jeffrey, the cartoon depiction you show of the core load being transferred to the perimeter is appropriately named because what you show is impossible. As I stated to you when you e-mailed this to me a while back, the outriggers of the hat truss did not have anywhere near the ability to transfer the 12 stories of a central core gravity load to the perimeter columns. They would have immediately failed in bending had that entire upper 12 stories of core load been applied to them. The outriggers were only intended to provide counteracting moments to antenna wind loads by shifting them further outboard to the perimeter, where the force involved in the counteracting moment would be lower due to the greater arm involved.

The core did fail first and it was the pull-in it applied to the perimeter that caused perimeter failure. The proof for this is in the stagger between the core falling first (as evidenced by the antenna drop) and the exterior roofline line just a short time later being coincident with the exterior columns being pulled inward.

It is interesting that your "cartoon" does not get into the dichotomy concerning the lack of resistance by the columns in the building, which is clearly provable, by the measurements showing there was no deceleration of the upper 12 story mass after it started to fall, and the calculations based on the real columns, which say there should have been massive resistance by them in a natural fall.

It seems that you allow yourself much more freedom in your explanation than science would allow. Hence, your terming your explanation a "cartoon" is appropriate, as things often happen in them that are impossible in real life.

[Jeffrey Orling]

I call them cartoons... but I could call them sketches. That hardly matters. Like all drawings they are abstract graphics representations. I deal with drawings all the time and they are not reality.... nor are formulas reality... just another form of abstraction. as the core was destroyed column by column, or it was losing strength and lost its load carrying capacity that had to be picked up by the facade columns... the load was not disappearing. The loads were redistributed through the horizontal members including the hat truss. That is to say if you severed the columns several stories below the HT those still attached above the severed columns who have the part of the floor loads and their own weight and this load would then be hanging from the HT ... the columns would switch from compression members to tension ones. If he column splices held then the weight would add a series of concentrated loads to the bottom chord of the HT and these would add load the bearing points of the HT or the truss itself would fail and collapse. My hunch is that there would have been a very rapid increase in load and it would result in some buckling of the facade at some of the bearing locations of the HT.

As we can't see how the damage / weakening progressed we can't know precisely how loads were redistributed.. and I don't believe all the core columns of this region have been recovered and analyzed. That would show if there were explosive devices or if the core columns failed from heat, distortion, warping and connection failures. The pre release movements suggests a failure PROCESS over time not an instantaneous one... but the moment of release was when aggregate capacity dropped below the aggregate service load... and the failure raced through all remaining load bearing columns.

It seems that you allow yourself much more freedom in your explanation than science would allow. Hence, your your convoluted explanation ..... is inappropriate, as that did not happen in real life.

[Tony Szamboti]

I call them cartoons... but I could call them sketches. That hardly matters. Like all drawings they are abstract graphics representations. I deal with drawings all the time and they are not reality.... nor are formulas reality... just another form of abstraction. as the core was destroyed column by column, or it was losing strength and lost its load carrying capacity that had to be picked up by the facade columns... the load was not disappearing. The loads were redistributed through the horizontal members including the hat truss. That is to say if you severed the columns several stories below the HT those still attached above the severed columns who have the part of the floor loads and their own weight and this load would then be hanging from the HT ... the columns would switch from compression members to tension ones. If he column splices held then the weight would add a series of concentrated loads to the bottom chord of the HT and these would add load the bearing points of the HT or the truss itself would fail and collapse. My hunch is that there would have been a very rapid increase in load and it would result in some buckling of the facade at some of the bearing locations of the HT.

As we can't see how the damage / weakening progressed we can't know precisely how loads were redistributed.. and I don't believe all the core columns of this region have been recovered and analyzed. That would show if there were explosive devices or if the core columns failed from heat, distortion, warping and connection failures. The pre release movements suggests a failure PROCESS over time not an instantaneous one... but the moment of release was when aggregate capacity dropped below the aggregate service load... and the failure raced through all remaining load bearing columns.

It seems that you allow yourself much more freedom in your explanation than science would allow. Hence, your your convoluted explanation ..... is inappropriate, as that did not happen in real life.

The horizontal propagation was extraordinarily rapid across the 98th floor (about 0.7 seconds), where no core columns had been affected by the aircraft and no more than two perimeter columns, as only the very end of the wing hit that floor. Doesn't that give you pause in your arbitrary assignment of severe column load capacity degradation?

[Jan Klimkowski]

Gladio was created after WWII as a check by the right on the leftists who were being supported by the USSR. The left had popular support... and communists were and are a recognized party in Italy for sure. My deceased brother in law was involved in the communist party in Tuscany and was a marxist economist. The right of course fear the left and their fascist pro capitalist view of the world was diametrically opposed to the communists. In the US we had the idiotic red scare of HUAC... the right was on a hunt to get the left. And so intel decided to engage in a series of terrorist attacks blame it on the left to turn the people against the left and demand the state crack down on them. Nasty SOBs. They infiltrated the red brigades and the bider meinhof.

This strategy turned out to be rather effective especially when the truth of who did what was concealed by the right who were in power and it was not in their interest to reveal it. False flags have been used at times to create excuses for militarist adventurism. Terrorism by definition is meant to instill fear in the public. But fear of what or whom? The guys with the mic get to tell the story. In fact, the guys with the mic ALWAYS get to tell the story.

It's hard to deny hive mentality or group think. People identify with a group and share its values and goals and so forth. They don't have to read and rehearse talking points... only talking heads do that. All people inside the MIC partake in the same (more or less) hive behavior and thinking. In fact.. they all know who the enemy is... how could they not? When you are a hammer... every problem looks like a nail and you slam it as the hammer that you are.

Of course Gladio was a fascist series of MIHOPs... they've got the admissions and documents to prove it. And it's likely that the practice continues because intel is engaged in criminality and black ops and ALL CRIMINALS try to pin the blame on someone else... or at least have an alibi... but better to have some one else framed and that settles that. LHO was a patsy wasn't he? Having one was part of closing the book and dead ending the investigation... killing him AND Ruby etc.. made that so much easier. Destroy evidence and it makes solving the crime harder and less certain.

Jeffrey - I'm following the development of your knowledge and thinking about Gladio closely. You still fail to understand the nature of Gladio "stay behind" structures, and try to define false flag and Gladio in ways which are incorrect in both historical and deep political ways.

Gladio was created after WWII as a check by the right on the leftists who were being supported by the USSR.

Let's start with this statement.

In what sense was Gladio intended as a "check" on left wing political activity?

Also, what do you mean by "the right" and in what sense did "the right" create Gladio?

[Jeffrey Orling]

Jeffrey - I'm following the development of your knowledge and thinking about Gladio closely. You still fail to understand the nature of Gladio "stay behind" structures, and try to define false flag and Gladio in ways which are incorrect in both historical and deep political ways.

Let's start with this statement.

In what sense was Gladio intended as a "check" on left wing political activity?

Also, what do you mean by "the right" and in what sense did "the right" create Gladio?

Jan,

I have not extensively studied history post WWII in Europe and my understanding of what Gladio was is based on the material I happened to come across and my own interpretation of it. I was not there, I gathered no evidence and so I make no claims that I or for that matter someone who did not know this up close and personal can claim to know the "truth".

As I stated my understanding is that post WWII in the period of the cold war the right (do I have to define that?) was both trying to dominate and this including suppressing the left... not simply defeating it in fair and square elections in the European "democracies". The far right of course has no use for democracy or care for the people, except to exploit them for labor... The left opposed top down authoritarian structures and is anti capitalist as capitalism represents the struggle between the capitalist (oppressors) and the workers (the oppressed).

There were groups at the far ends of the political spectrum advocating for their vision. The right engaged in what amounts to false flag terrorist activities to shatter the left and turn the population against it and fear violence which they were made to believe was coming from the left. The idea (presumably) was that this false understanding would lead to the people asking for and accepting more authoritarian control to maintain security and tranquility. And more power and an authoritarian model was what the right was after. My sense was these FF terrorist attacks did move people away from support of the left. But perhaps I am wrong.

The so called stay behind structures... such as US troops and bases and so forth were part of the cold war strategy to prevent the USSR from trying to extend their influence to Europe. And the various proxy wars were much the same for SE Asia etc. The do called domino theory was advanced and used as an excuse for these wars which as well all know benefit on the MIC. Fear is the greatest motivator of human behavior and Gladio leveraged this concept.

[Jan Klimkowski]

Jeffrey - I'm following the development of your knowledge and thinking about Gladio closely. You still fail to understand the nature of Gladio "stay behind" structures, and try to define false flag and Gladio in ways which are incorrect in both historical and deep political ways.

Let's start with this statement.

In what sense was Gladio intended as a "check" on left wing political activity?

Also, what do you mean by "the right" and in what sense did "the right" create Gladio?

Jan,

I have not extensively studied history post WWII in Europe and my understanding of what Gladio was is based on the material I happened to come across and my own interpretation of it. I was not there, I gathered no evidence and so I make no claims that I or for that matter someone who did not know this up close and personal can claim to know the "truth".

As I stated my understanding is that post WWII in the period of the cold war the right (do I have to define that?) was both trying to dominate and this including suppressing the left... not simply defeating it in fair and square elections in the European "democracies". The far right of course has no use for democracy or care for the people, except to exploit them for labor... The left opposed top down authoritarian structures and is anti capitalist as capitalism represents the struggle between the capitalist (oppressors) and the workers (the oppressed).

There were groups at the far ends of the political spectrum advocating for their vision. The right engaged in what amounts to false flag terrorist activities to shatter the left and turn the population against it and fear violence which they were made to believe was coming from the left. The idea (presumably) was that this false understanding would lead to the people asking for and accepting more authoritarian control to maintain security and tranquility. And more power and an authoritarian model was what the right was after. My sense was these FF terrorist attacks did move people away from support of the left. But perhaps I am wrong.

The so called stay behind structures... such as US troops and bases and so forth were part of the cold war strategy to prevent the USSR from trying to extend their influence to Europe. And the various proxy wars were much the same for SE Asia etc. The do called domino theory was advanced and used as an excuse for these wars which as well all know benefit on the MIC. Fear is the greatest motivator of human behavior and Gladio leveraged this concept.

Jeffrey - you continue to make assertive statements even when you acknowledge you have not studied these matters in any detail.

The Deep Politics Forum is named after Peter Dale Scott's work, and looks to develop and explore understanding of deep political structures.

Just as it is puerile to assert that a monolithic organisation such as the CIA or the Masons assassinated JFK, so it lacks rigour to state that Gladio was a "creation of the right".

In truth, Gladio was in no sense "a creation of the right". Gladio was a highly compartmentalised intelligence operation, with a deep and isolated cell structure, and a mission to create chaos: Strategia Della Tensione.

Gladio was opportunistic: it used and exploited groups originally created for other purposes, such as the "stay behind" structures.

The links between the controlling echelons of Gladio and Gehlen Org are shadowy but clear, provocative and dangerous.

Gladio false flag operations were typically atrocities, directed at the citizenry, to spread fear and terror.

At its most fundamental level, Gladio is not about right-wing or left-wing politics.

Gladio, and its successor operations, are about Power and Control.

[Jeffrey Orling]

At its most fundamental level, Gladio is not about right-wing or left-wing politics.

Gladio, and its successor operations, are about Power and Control.

And I will assert that "power and control" are the currency of the right.