Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis

[Jeffrey Orling]

So Danny.... what would a natural collapse of a huge skescraper look like?

[Tony Szamboti]

So Danny.... what would a natural collapse of a huge skescraper look like?

Danny can speak for himself but I do want to say it would be something like one of the pyramids crumbling to the ground. It just would not have happened. No natural collapse to the ground of that type of structure has ever happened before and it didn't happen on 911.

The nonsense about a natural collapse with all of the evidence proving otherwise is nothing but (as Norman Schwarzkopf would say) bovine skedaddle.

[Jeffrey Orling]

So Danny.... what would a natural collapse of a huge skescraper look like?

Danny can speak for himself but I do want to say it would be something like one of the pyramids crumbling to the ground. It just would not have happened. No natural collapse to the ground of that type of structure has ever happened before and it didn't happen on 911.

The nonsense about a natural collapse with all of the evidence proving otherwise is nothing but (as Norman Schwarzkopf would say) bovine skedaddle.

So you're saying that the entire collapse was assisted by CD devices... top to bottom?

[Magda Hassan]

So Danny.... what would a natural collapse of a huge skescraper look like?

I think many people might accept that buildings may collapse due to fires and mechanical and structural damage though the evidence is very debatable....since it has never happened except on 911...however, for many, it is the way the buildings fell down. They fell down and not over. They fell into their own foot print. The damage was asymmetrical and one might think the collapse would also be asymmetrical. Which it wasn't in all 3 buildings. And the damage and impact areas were different in all 3 buildings but the collapse was pretty much the same.

[Phil Dragoo]

The FBI was instructed to bury testimony and evidence counter to the lone gunman scenarioyet CIA still stonewalls on the basis of national security

Bertrand Russell noted this irony in 1964

At 368 Jeffrey Orling says

I have to say that all witness testimoney is insufficient in itself to prove anything and most of it is simply wrong.

At 369 Tony Szamboti says

Yeah, the witnesses are all just mistaken, just like the legendary Allen Dulles said everyone was who ran towards the grassy knoll after having heard gunfire from that end of Dealey Plaza.

It had to be electrical transformers blowing that they heard. Yeah, that's the ticket, transformers. When they explode walls fall apart in some other world. Maybe the place Orwell talked about.

Of course, Allen Dulles is very likely one of those who said the Zapruder film and its back and to the left motion of JFK's head was too much for the public to see so it had to be suppressed. What a shame that Jim Garrison broke it loose from the grips of Life magazine's vault for the trial of Clay Shaw. Life fought Garrison's subpoena all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court who had no grounds to dismiss it. What a shame the court wasn't able to stop it. This is also reminiscent of the court case to get the Oral Histories released. You know, the ones taken down in the four months after 911 where 118 firefighters and emergency workers talk about seeing, hearing, and feeling explosions. Again what a shame they weren't able to stop it and that they were ultimately released in August 2005. The American people don't need to be confused by hearing about explosives at the world trade center. It was just about the planes and fires. That's all they need to know.

These witnesses have to be mistaken. They have to be. When asked about explosives being involved at a press conference Rudy Giuliani turned and asked Bernard Kerik if there was any evidence of explosives, and Bernie said no, so the witnesses all have to be mistaken. Never mind that this is the same Bernie Kerik who went to jail for fraud a few years later after making millions with Giuliani on the coat tails of 911 as "security" specialists.

Phil's note: Googled for oral histories firefighters 9/11 and found

9/11 Firefighter Oral Histories, First-Hand Reports




It was the particular duty of Arlen Specter, Belin, Liebeler under the tacit tutelage of the godfather of American shadow government Allen Dulles with the full cooperation of the blinkered and blackmailed J Edgar Hoover to suppress any and all evidence and testimony contrary to the official propaganda.

So it is with the false-flag provocation and psychological shock treatment called 9/11.

In the former instance, the single bullet is impossible as an explanation for the frontal wounding of the inconvenient president who challenged the cabal.

In the latter and extant instance, the "natural collapse" or the "fire-weakened steel" or the "aircraft damage to core columns" together with the Bazant-NIST pile driver, that solid twelve-story roustabout, are powerless to explain the observed events.

The sole explanation of the murder of the president and the demolition of a spiritual repository in the heart of the major urban center is the impetus of the cabal to absolute power through summary violence, all in Dulles' blueprint of a strategy of tension.

Cheney may serve as an equivalent to Dulles providing the continuity presented over the course of the Century of the Fed, in which Preparata's Conjuring feeds steel in a cherry ingot to be stamped and turned on the five-axis lathes of the black agencies.

The towers were exploded. The firemen tell it, Allen Dulles-Cheney and his willing handmaidens to the contrary notwithstanding.

[Lauren Johnson]

Jeffrey, @341, Tony and I gave differing interpretations of you Top Down cartoon. Tony said this:

The reason both Jeffrey's and NIST's explanations are confusing is that they aren't real and there was nowhere near enough load redistribution to cause additional failure in their scenarios. In my opinion their scenarios are worse than your analogy of a stable human losing one leg instantly and would be more like a four legged animal suddenly losing one leg. There isn't enough overload to fail the other three legs.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt. This was your answer @352:

This was a 4D process. LxWxHxT so it's hard to communicate in a sketch or even a narrative how this was taking place. Not a linear process by any means.

I tried to explain that there was what I call phase transition but not actually phase boundaries like discreet steps. There was a blending... a progression of weakening and forces (loads) were being redistributed as axial support was compromised and being eroded (or removed)....

Your explanation is fuzzy and confusing. You back away from your cartoon. I looked at all your cartoons. This one needed to stand, in my view. You have abandoned it. If only you had 4D.

Chief Palmer certainly didn't have the whole picture. But and a very big BUT, he did not radio back to the effect, this thing is an inferno. We have to back off. No, two isolated fires that they could knock down.

[Tony Szamboti]

So Danny.... what would a natural collapse of a huge skescraper look like?

Danny can speak for himself but I do want to say it would be something like one of the pyramids crumbling to the ground. It just would not have happened. No natural collapse to the ground of that type of structure has ever happened before and it didn't happen on 911.

The nonsense about a natural collapse with all of the evidence proving otherwise is nothing but (as Norman Schwarzkopf would say) bovine skedaddle.

So you're saying that the entire collapse was assisted by CD devices... top to bottom?

I can say unequivocally that the collapse initiations and at least the first several stories of the collapses were assisted in the North Tower and WTC 7 to get things moving. The columns are not involved in either the initiation or first several stories of the drop of both buildings and that is impossible in a natural collapse. After that it doesn't matter, as controlled demolitions generally only involve breaking enough material loose, and generating enough momentum, to let gravity finish the job. In WTC 7 it is very clear that it was eight stories taken out before letting gravity do the rest with the loosened material. It could have been nine or ten in the towers, and there may have been additional help on the way down at key points, such as mechanical floors and the perimeter corners.

The North Tower and WTC 7 collapses were with the utmost probability due to controlled demolitions.

[Lauren Johnson]

Tony said this @101.

You have it right about there not being enough heat to cause what we observed. The NIST didn't find evidence of high temperatures on the steel. They only found three pieces out of the 236 they got from the twin towers that had even seen temperatures beyond 250 degrees C, where steel hasn't even begun to lose strength.

It isn't just that the collapse couldn't have started because there wasn't enough heat. There is another clue that it was unnatural as the acceleration through the first story was constant at 5.1 m/s^2. In a natural heat weakening situation the columns would have been softened to the point where they just couldn't handle the load when they began to fall. With constant acceleration, the average resistance should have been the strength just below where yield would start. So it should have been quite slow, but it was not. The observations of constant and rapid acceleration through the first story, along with the point that in a natural situation the fall would start when the columns would have been heated to where they just started to yield, are not consistent with heat weakening in a natural collapse.

Your point here Tony cannot be emphasized enough.

[Lauren Johnson]

The columns are not involved in either the initiation or first several stories of the drop of both buildings and that is impossible in a natural collapse.

So what was blown? Sounds like not all that much. Thermite? Where was it used?

With regards to some witness testimony about explosions at ground level or even below ground level, what is your read there? It gets dismissed as jet fuel come down the elevator shafts.

[Tony Szamboti]

With regards to some witness testimony about explosions at ground level or even below ground level, what is your read there? It gets dismissed as jet fuel come down the elevator shafts.

Lauren, there is not a chance that the tremendous damage done to the large lobby in the North Tower was caused by jet fuel coming down elevator shafts from 1,100 feet up. For the following reasons.

1. Only about 5,000 gallons made it into the towers unexploded, as much of the 10,000 gallons on each aircraft was aerosolized and went up in fireballs either outside or inside.
2. 5,000 gallons is the amount in a 3.5 foot high x 15 foot diameter backyard pool.
3. The wing tanks spanned about four floors, so the 5,000 gallons was spread over four floors. That leaves 1,250 gallons per floor.
4. 1,250 gallons spread over just half the acre size floor would be a .093 inch thick film on just the floor and not counting the additional surface area of partitions, desks, chairs, draperies, etc.
5. It is clear that there would be very little left over to make the trip down the elevator shafts and then surface tension on the four gypsum walls of the shafts would suck up a lot of whatever was there.
6. There was only two elevators that ran between the 93rd floor (which would be the lowest point of the fuel during the impact) and the lobby and sub-levels. This was out of 36 elevator shafts on each floor. The reason for this is that the elevator system was staggered to use less space. There were 99 elevators in each tower, but they only ran to the 44th and 78th floor sky lobbies and then you took a local that ran between them. Only a couple of elevators ran top to bottom.
7. Even if the fuel could get down the shafts it isn't clear why it would explode when it got to the bottom. Fuel needs to be vaporized to be ignitable and/or explosive and Jet fuel has a very high vaporization temperature (about 140 deg. F whereas gas is -45 deg. F) for safety reasons. I put matches out in it in 5 gallon drums when I was an aircraft mechanic in the Navy just to prove the point, since there was no vapor at room temperature there would be no ignition.

I would be surprised if even a drop of fuel from the aircraft actually made the 1,100 foot trip down to the lobby or the sub-levels, where the fuel is also blamed for destruction and explosions. It is all a big hand wave hoax with no science behind it. Kind of like the one bullet that was alleged to have caused all of Connolly's wounds and two of Kennedy's and remain somewhat pristine looking like it had been fired into a water tank or cotton tube. That story was obviously concocted because those charged with explaining the murder as a lone gunman argument ran out of ammo to be fired by one man in the time allotted and they had to account for the wound to James Tague. The Kennedy murder cover-up artists only had two bullets to explain all of the wounds with if they wanted to keep it to one shooter, just like the 911 cover-up artists only had 5,000 gallons total 1,100 feet up on four separate floors to explain all of the damage and destruction to the lobby and sub-levels if they wanted to keep it to aircraft impact and fires caused all of the damage and destruction in the building. There are a lot of parallels between the two situations.