What did Owsald think he was doing on and around Nov. 22, what do you think he thought was his role at the TSBD, etc.?
Do you think he was the Lee who tipped off the Chicago Plot?
When he was asked about leaving the TSBD in a car why do you think he
1. First said he took a bus and a cab?
2. Then when asked about leaving the TSBD in a car per Roger Craig - why did he say "... not to drag Mrs. Paine into this"?
- Did he have no clue about her or was he protecting her CIA cover?
All good questions. I've spent many years trying to figure out Oswald's role that day. I have a lot of theories, but none of them fit really well and explain everything.
Marlene Zenker Wrote:What did Owsald think he was doing on and around Nov. 22, what do you think he thought was his role at the TSBD, etc.?
Do you think he was the Lee who tipped off the Chicago Plot?
When he was asked about leaving the TSBD in a car why do you think he
1. First said he took a bus and a cab?
2. Then when asked about leaving the TSBD in a car per Roger Craig - why did he say "... not to drag Mrs. Paine into this"?
- Did he have no clue about her or was he protecting her CIA cover?
Tracy, I would like to hear your thoughts regardless of whether they all fit. Here's mine re: LHO leaving the TSBD.
I think there were 2 Oswalds at the TSBD. I think Harvey took the bus/cab and Lee took the Rambler.
Why? re: the bus/cab.
Though many researchers think the bus/cab did not happen, if there were 2 LHO's and both knew in advance what was going to happen that day (or that something was going to happen) then Harvey goes back to his rooming house to get his gun and goes to the theater for a pre-planned meeting. It doesn't matter if he was in on the assassination or trying to prevent it or there for another reason, he knows he is in danger and needs to get to the theater quickly.
Lee makes his exit/escape through an obviously pre-planned pickup by Ruth Paine. She takes him to Oak Cliff and drops him off. He kills Tippit for whatever reason and gets away.
Harvey tells the truth to the police about how he got home but when they bring up the "car" which perhaps was his planned route as well he protects Paine as he knows his double was picked up by her.
The conspirators could have easily known that McWatters was the bus driver but could they have known that Whaley would be the cab driver? I guess it's possible but unlikely especially because Harvey was willing to give up that cab to the woman. So the route was probably take the bus to Oak Cliff, Tippit meets the bus etc..
Harvey never actually admits to getting into the Rambler - just that he knows who the car belongs to.
Can anyone account for Ruth Paine's whereabouts, other than Marina Oswald, between say 12 Noon and when the police arrive at her house in Irving? Of course the driver of Paine's car didn't have to be Ruth.
Marlene Zenker Wrote:What did Owsald think he was doing on and around Nov. 22, what do you think he thought was his role at the TSBD, etc.?
Do you think he was the Lee who tipped off the Chicago Plot?
When he was asked about leaving the TSBD in a car why do you think he
1. First said he took a bus and a cab?
2. Then when asked about leaving the TSBD in a car per Roger Craig - why did he say "... not to drag Mrs. Paine into this"?
- Did he have no clue about her or was he protecting her CIA cover?
Tracy, I would like to hear your thoughts regardless of whether they all fit. Here's mine re: LHO leaving the TSBD.
I think there were 2 Oswalds at the TSBD. I think Harvey took the bus/cab and Lee took the Rambler.
Why? re: the bus/cab.
Though many researchers think the bus/cab did not happen, if there were 2 LHO's and both knew in advance what was going to happen that day (or that something was going to happen) then Harvey goes back to his rooming house to get his gun and goes to the theater for a pre-planned meeting. It doesn't matter if he was in on the assassination or trying to prevent it or there for another reason, he knows he is in danger and needs to get to the theater quickly.
Lee makes his exit/escape through an obviously pre-planned pickup by Ruth Paine. She takes him to Oak Cliff and drops him off. He kills Tippit for whatever reason and gets away.
Harvey tells the truth to the police about how he got home but when they bring up the "car" which perhaps was his planned route as well he protects Paine as he knows his double was picked up by her.
The conspirators could have easily known that McWatters was the bus driver but could they have known that Whaley would be the cab driver? I guess it's possible but unlikely especially because Harvey was willing to give up that cab to the woman. So the route was probably take the bus to Oak Cliff, Tippit meets the bus etc..
Harvey never actually admits to getting into the Rambler - just that he knows who the car belongs to.
Can anyone account for Ruth Paine's whereabouts, other than Marina Oswald, between say 12 Noon and when the police arrive at her house in Irving? Of course the driver of Paine's car didn't have to be Ruth.
Just some rambling thoughts...
A couple of more things re:TSBD 11.22.63
For the sake of argument there are 2 LHO's and they are both in the TSBD - if Harvey is a good guy and he is supposed to prevent the assassination what is he doing to that end? Whether he is Prayer Man, or in the lunchroom, or on the 3rd or 4th floor, what is he doing? Even if he was on the 6th floor he didn't stop Lee. He has to be involved in some way. He leaves the TSBD very quickly where the tendency of most people would be to stay, talk to fellow witnesses, common curiosity etc.. Instead, he leaves, tells the police that he didn't think there would be anymore work that day and didn't see any reason to stay around.
If he knew he had a double, which would seem logical based on his statements about taking the bus but also knowing about the Rambler, what did he think his purpose was? Wouldn't he have figured out that if one of the assassins was his double that he was in deep trouble? Wouldn't he have left the TSBD before the motorcade even got there? Or did he not know that his double was there? Or of course there was no double.
I know you all have been thinking about this forever but I would really like to hash this out.
Ruth Paine had a green Chevy station wagon, not a Nash Rambler. Witnesses said the Rambler was driven by a dark complected man (probably a Cuban).
If Oswald was knowingly part of a plot, he would likely have had his revolver with him already (if he actually owned one, I'm not 100% certain about that). Going back to the rooming house was a time-waster, unless it was to change his clothes.
If LHO went to the Texas Theater to meet a contact (as it appears to be), and he entered shortly after 1pm, I don't know why he never met this contact.
There are only a few things we can be certain about regarding Oswald's movements: Frazier says he drove him to work; he was seen that morning in the TSBD by several employees; he was seen by Earlene Roberts at his rooming house for a few minutes; he was arrested at the Texas Theater at 1:50pm. Everything else before his arrest is questionable.
An "Oswald" was not on the bus... never was. Bledsoe's description is of the man's appears after he was arrested... and AFTER he changes his clothes... (I find that one of the more interesting ignored items of fact.... IF we are to believe Oswald said any of the things Fritz and Bookout say he said, (CE1988 p100 has Bookout confirming that Oswald said he changed his shirt and pants when he got home) then he DEFINITELY changed... and imo was driven to the alley behind the theater by the police car that gave a honk-honk out front... no other way he gets there so fast to be seen by Postal and Burroughs before 1:10.
Mr. BALL - Now, what color shirt did he have on?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - He had a brown shirt.
Mr. BALL - And unraveled? Mrs. BLEDSOE - Hole in his sleeve right here [indicating].
Mr. BALL - Which is the elbow of the sleeve? That is, you pointed to the elbow?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, it is.
Mr. BALL - And that would be which elbow, right or left elbow?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did he have anything on. Was the shirt open or was it buttoned? Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; all the buttons torn off.
From Bookout's report of the Q&A:
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LEE - who may have been the Tippit killer (at least one of them) - then leads the chase to the theater, goes upstairs to the balcony and is taken aware out the back door AFTER HARVEY has been taken out the front. Whether LEE is the person White sees in the car a bit later is hard to tell... although he did ID him as Oswald.
If it was HARVEY who was arrested and was aware of HIS ROLE with the FBI, at the TSBD replacing Molina, and as the now self aware PATSY... would he not suspect Ruth and by making that statement be giving some clues to the police about something strange at the Paine household, Marina and Michael ??? Or he was just trying to protect his assets ??
As you both have said... WHO/WHAT Harvey Oswald was doing (and I agree that LEE was in the TSBD and seen by REID as he left, while HARVEY was elsewhere.. how HARVEY gets back to his room is a mystery as I don't believe Whaley had anything to do with it) and how that dovetails into Bannister/Shaw/Ferrie sheds light on what HARVEY was doing at the theater. The TSBD had a long history of conservative support in the supplying of arms where needed to fight communism... I believe HARVEY was placed there via Ruth/CIA knowing he was working with the FBI, so they could set him up and insure HOOVER's support in this case, forever.
Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor?
Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. REID. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building?
Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, h[B]e had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers[/B]. What color I couldn't tell you
So we have the impoosible scene with the windowed door to the lunchroom and Truly ahead of Baker... along with the man they stopped on the stairs from Baker's affidavit... which imo becomes the lunchroom scene since THIS may have been LEE... or possibly a shooter from the WEST side of the 6th floor
Baker's affidavit wchich is referred to in his questioning yet never addressed.
As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the
stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The
manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and
went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years
old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.
The next person to actually see Oswald is Mrs Roberts at his rooming house:
Mr. BALL. When he came in he was in a shirt? Mrs. ROBERTS. H[B]e was in his shirt sleeves.[/B]
Mr. BALL. What color was his shirt? Do you know?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember.
("Shirt Sleeves" was the term for a white T-shirt and nothing else... could this have been LEE?)
From what I remember Ruth was at home until her "expected DPD guests" arrived.
Mrs. PAINE - I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy. I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage of the fact of the motorcade in Dallas, but there was no television cameras showing it, as you know, and. Marina thanked me for having left the television set on. She said she woke up in kind of a bad mood, but she had seen the arrival of President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy at the airport in Dallas, and had been thrilled with this occasion and with the greeting he had received, and it had lifted her spirits.
Very shortly after this time, I had only just begun to prepare the lunch, the announcement was made that the President had been shot, and I translated this to Marina. She had not caught it from the television statement. And I was crying as I did the translation. And then we sat down and waited at the television set, no longer interested in the preparing of lunch, and waited to hear further word.
I got out some candles and lit them, and my little girl also lighted a candle, and Marina said to me, "Is that a way of praying?", and I said "Yes, it is, just my own way." And it was well over an hour before we heard definitely that the President was dead.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
Tracy Riddle Wrote:Ruth Paine had a green Chevy station wagon, not a Nash Rambler. Witnesses said the Rambler was driven by a dark complected man (probably a Cuban).
If Oswald was knowingly part of a plot, he would likely have had his revolver with him already (if he actually owned one, I'm not 100% certain about that). Going back to the rooming house was a time-waster, unless it was to change his clothes.
If LHO went to the Texas Theater to meet a contact (as it appears to be), and he entered shortly after 1pm, I don't know why he never met this contact.
There are only a few things we can be certain about regarding Oswald's movements: Frazier says he drove him to work; he was seen that morning in the TSBD by several employees; he was seen by Earlene Roberts at his rooming house for a few minutes; he was arrested at the Texas Theater at 1:50pm. Everything else before his arrest is questionable.
But Tracy, Fritz doesn't specify the type of car "...[size=12]Fritz, who asks the suspect, "What about the car?" and LHO responds, That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to drag her into this. She had nothing to do with it ... Everyone will know who I am now."
[/SIZE]
So even though Craig identifies it as a Nash Rambler Oswald when confronted just assumes they mean Ruth Paine's car.
As to going home to change, that sounds plausible enough whether it was to get his gun, change his clothes or both. Maybe he had time to kill before his possible meeting at the Texas Theater.
Why he didn't actually find the person he was supposed to meet just goes along with him being set up as they never intended there to be a meeting just that the police would be tipped off that Oswald was there and would arrest and/or kill him there. Maybe they even told him to bring a gun.
Yes, we only know for sure the things that you mentioned.
Tracy Riddle Wrote:Ruth Paine had a green Chevy station wagon, not a Nash Rambler. Witnesses said the Rambler was driven by a dark complected man (probably a Cuban).
If Oswald was knowingly part of a plot, he would likely have had his revolver with him already (if he actually owned one, I'm not 100% certain about that). Going back to the rooming house was a time-waster, unless it was to change his clothes.
If LHO went to the Texas Theater to meet a contact (as it appears to be), and he entered shortly after 1pm, I don't know why he never met this contact.
There are only a few things we can be certain about regarding Oswald's movements: Frazier says he drove him to work; he was seen that morning in the TSBD by several employees; he was seen by Earlene Roberts at his rooming house for a few minutes; he was arrested at the Texas Theater at 1:50pm. Everything else before his arrest is questionable.
Going to be uber-picky here for a minute....
Frazier said a variety of things that turned out not to be true about that morning's ride and what may or may not have been in his back seat, when and where Oswald was left off.
He never addresses this change in normal procedure (he would drive down and pick Oswald up at the Paine's - this is the one and only time he tells of Oswald coming to him and yet there is not a single corroborating witness outside the Frazier/Randle family.
We do have Dougherty seeing Oswald enter without a package or bag in his hands.
We do have a few people seeing him working and then hearing from him to send the elevator back up at around 11:45.
If we are to accept testimony for fact (as you have done) then Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the lunchroon as early as 12:10 and as late as 12:25... and then again walking by the front entrance yet inside the building.
Mrs Reid has a fit when asked whether there were any MEN in the lunchroom when she left at 12:25.
The only physical evidence that places Oswald anywhere prior to his arrest IS the arrest itself.
I don't think we can take the photo of the man under the sign as definitively Oswald (Craig's ID)
Do you think this could be OSWALD out front talking? (from one of the three tramps photos) it sure appears so to me
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Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
