Oswald questions

[Magda Hassan]

The tramp photos were taken sometime between 2pm and 2:30pm, so it can't be Oswald.

Please substantiate your reply Tracy.... How do you know this to be a fact?

I'm not saying it isn't correct, just like to know how you arrive at that conclusion...

Thanks
DJ

Not 100% sure of the time but that is Jack Beer's photo so that should narrow it. I think it was around 2 to 2.30 pm

[Tracy Riddle]

The tramp photos were taken sometime between 2pm and 2:30pm, so it can't be Oswald.

Please substantiate your reply Tracy.... How do you know this to be a fact?

I'm not saying it isn't correct, just like to know how you arrive at that conclusion...

Thanks
DJ

Richard Trask in Pictures of the Pain discussed the photographers involved (I think there were three) and they recalled the event happening around that time. Also, Greg Jaynes did some analysis of the shadows and came up with the same time frame.

[Peter Lemkin]

The tramp photos were taken sometime between 2pm and 2:30pm, so it can't be Oswald.

Please substantiate your reply Tracy.... How do you know this to be a fact?

I'm not saying it isn't correct, just like to know how you arrive at that conclusion...

Thanks
DJ

Richard Trask in Pictures of the Pain discussed the photographers involved (I think there were three) and they recalled the event happening around that time. Also, Greg Jaynes did some analysis of the shadows and came up with the same time frame.

I'd have to look at my notes [deeply hidden in this computer], but I remember that the tramps [so called] were both 'found' and paraded past Lansdale WELL after things had quieted down in the Plaza.

I had thought it was even a bit later than 2-ish, [3-ish?], but at least that late. Shadow analysis should be able to pin it down within a 15 minute window.

[David Josephs]

The tramp photos were taken sometime between 2pm and 2:30pm, so it can't be Oswald.

Please substantiate your reply Tracy.... How do you know this to be a fact?

I'm not saying it isn't correct, just like to know how you arrive at that conclusion...

Thanks
DJ

Richard Trask in Pictures of the Pain discussed the photographers involved (I think there were three) and they recalled the event happening around that time. Also, Greg Jaynes did some analysis of the shadows and came up with the same time frame.

I'd have to look at my notes [deeply hidden in this computer], but I remember that the tramps [so called] were both 'found' and paraded past Lansdale WELL after things had quieted down in the Plaza.

I had thought it was even a bit later than 2-ish, [3-ish?], but at least that late. Shadow analysis should be able to pin it down within a 15 minute window.

Peter...

your mailboxes are full... please send me an email directly, or empty out your inbox so we can discuss your project

thanks
DJ

[Gordon Gray]

Assuming the LEE/HARVEY scenario, would it have been necessary for them to have been aware of the other's existence. Since LEE would have been employed in setting up HARVEY, he probably did, but it would have been better that HARVEY was not aware of LEE, IMO. Like wise would it have been necessary for Ruth and HARVEY to be aware of the other's relationship to the CIA?
The only way HARVEY could have gotten to 10th and Patton in time to shoot Tippitt would have been if he had been driven there. And why that particular location? And why shoot Tippitt in the first place? Likewise the only way for Harvey to have made it from his rooming house at 1:04 to the Theatre at 1:10 or so, would be if he had been driven there. It is possible that LEE had been driven in the station wagon to Ruby's apartment, which was serving as a kind of safe house, in order to pick up a weapon. But why would he have been walking west on 10th? If he was to meet Oswald at the Theatre, to possibly eliminate him, why wouldn't he have been driven there in the station wagon?
Also Tippitt may have been instructed by his superiors, some time prior, to pick up Oswald, but did he even need to know that this involved the assassination plot in any way, or that there were two of them? It's possible that Tippit was looking for HARVEY and encountering LEE instead, mistook him, and tried to arrest him. But again why would LEE have been walking in that direction? If Harvey had been infiltrating Cuban exile groups in Dallas, it's possible he picked up wind of the assassination plans. He may even had to have accepted some small role in it in order to maintain his cover. But wouldn't it have been more likely that LEE was the one who was involved with the Cubans? I think we would need an expert in spycraft to answer these questions, but if need to know is the general rule then it's quite possible that they each knew little of the bigger picture beyond their limited roles.

[Tracy Riddle]

If Harvey was really the one picked up by the station wagon at around 12:40, why does it take 20 minutes to reach his rooming house and drop him off at 1pm? Was he then picked up again and driven to the Texas Theater to meet a contact (as John Martino claimed)? But if they already had him in a station wagon, why didn't they just drive him to Red Bird airport or wherever instead of all these drop-offs?

Maybe I'm just stuck on Martino's claims (that they had planned to get Oswald out of Texas). It makes perfect sense - rather than having a live or dead patsy in the hands of the DPD, the "assassin" just disappears. Then the CIA assets put out the word he was seen flying to Mexico, then to Cuba, and Castro is then accused of harboring him. Oswald is actually dead by this time, his body dumped in a Louisiana swamp, but the American people are being whipped up to invade Cuba to find him.

[Jim Hargrove]

John Armstrong's analysis of the events immediately after the assassination is the only one that ever made sense to me. John said he examined DPD reports and concluded that Tippit was the only Dallas cop in the vicinity of the Beckley boarding house around 1 pm, so.... when Harvey failed to get off the bus at the Gloco station where Tippit was waiting for him, Tippit may have driven on to the boarding house, honked, and then carted Harvey to the narrow alley behind the Texas Theater, where Harvey could get out and enter the theater virtually unseen on Jefferson. In the theater, Harvey begins sitting next to one patron after another, obviously looking for a "contact."

Soon afterward, Lee Oswald is walking west on Patton and then west on E. 10th St. (Jack Ruby's apartment is just two or three blocks away, and LEE may have had an apartment nearby.) Tippit is nearing Lee's position, and they soon meet, and Lee's final act in framing Harvey begins. He murders Tippit, and then begins his conspicuous walk to the theater so as to lead police there. To make sure his is noticed, he runs by Julia Postal without buying a ticket and races up to the balcony. Police, with "Lee Harvey Oswald's" Texas drivers license in hand, arrive at the theater and arrest Harvey on the main floor as Lee is led out from the balcony to the back exit of the theater, where he is seen by several witnesses.

For JA's full writeup, see: http://harveyandlee.net/November/November_22.htm

Jim

[Tracy Riddle]

I have several problems with that scenario, Jim. Why would Harvey get off the bus at the Gloco station, instead of a stop closer to his rooming house? The bus was delayed in traffic that day, and I'm not sure what time it actually passed by anyway, and if Tippit had already sped away. If Tippit really had Harvey in his car, why didn't he drive him all the way to deliver him to the conspirators instead of dropping him off again so he could meet his contact? If the point was for the DPD to capture Oswald, why does Tippit let him go?

How does Lee know that Tippit will be on 10th and Patton at that precise moment? How does he know Harvey won't be in Tippit's car at that time? How does he know Harvey has been delivered to the Texas Theater instead? And I think Julia Postal didn't even notice anyone slip inside the theater; she was turned away listening to the radio, and it was only because Johnny Brewer alerted her that she called the police.

[Jim Hargrove]

I have several problems with that scenario, Jim. Why would Harvey get off the bus at the Gloco station, instead of a stop closer to his rooming house?

The bus didn't get any closer to the boarding house. It's route was to turn left at Marseilles.

The bus was delayed in traffic that day, and I'm not sure what time it actually passed by anyway, and if Tippit had already sped away. If Tippit really had Harvey in his car, why didn't he drive him all the way to deliver him to the conspirators instead of dropping him off again so he could meet his contact? If the point was for the DPD to capture Oswald, why does Tippit let him go?

Great question!! John and I have talked about this many times. The short answer is that we think Tippit was following orders, and this is what he was instructed to do. My theory about the Texas Theater rendezvous is that it was a sort of perp walk for Harvey, a splash for public consumption. Rather than find a dead body on the street or in the Trinity River and then connect a corpse to the assassination, better to parade him in front of the cameras for a day or two to look guilty to the public. All the world's a stage, and there HAD to be a patsy or the investigation would never end.

How does Lee know that Tippit will be on 10th and Patton at that precise moment?

Don't know if he knew exactly where Tippit would be, but there is evidence that LEE may have lived in an apartment at 507 E. 10th, and if he was walking toward the theater from there, he would pass Tippit at some point.

How does he know Harvey won't be in Tippit's car at that time? How does he know Harvey has been delivered to the Texas Theater instead?

I think this was all planned out.

And I think Julia Postal didn't even notice anyone slip inside the theater; she was turned away listening to the radio, and it was only because Johnny Brewer alerted her that she called the police.

That sounds right to me, but it doesn't change the fact that LEE Oswald entered the Texas Theater without buying a ticket, which would likely be noticed by someone. And it doesn't change the fact that several police reports said Oswald was arrested in the balcony and that several eyewitnesses saw who they thought was "Lee Harvey Oswald" led out the back of the theater by police.

These are wonderful questions, Tracy, and I'm going to try and go over them carefully with John next time we talk. Maybe I'll have some more accurate answers soon.

Jim

[Gordon Gray]

If Harvey was really the one picked up by the station wagon at around 12:40, why does it take 20 minutes to reach his rooming house and drop him off at 1pm? Was he then picked up again and driven to the Texas Theater to meet a contact (as John Martino claimed)? But if they already had him in a station wagon, why didn't they just drive him to Red Bird airport or wherever instead of all these drop-offs?

Maybe I'm just stuck on Martino's claims (that they had planned to get Oswald out of Texas). It makes perfect sense - rather than having a live or dead patsy in the hands of the DPD, the "assassin" just disappears. Then the CIA assets put out the word he was seen flying to Mexico, then to Cuba, and Castro is then accused of harboring him. Oswald is actually dead by this time, his body dumped in a Louisiana swamp, but the American people are being whipped up to invade Cuba to find him.

I agree with this as well. It makes little sense to me that they would try to arrange to frame him for the murder of a policeman in the hopes that he would be killed in the process of the police arresting him as a cop killer. Too much left to chance. And indeed why if they could drive him to the theatre, would they not just drive him to Red Bird or wherever, and dispose of him. So the question is how did HARVEY get to the theatre by the time he is first seen there around 1:10? Would it have been possible for him to have gotten there by bus?