Marty Hay's Blog!

[Albert Doyle]

What an utterly ridiculous remark from Albert Doyle. All of the forensic evidence points towards a simple suicide. There is ZERO evidence of murder.

Did you even read what the forensic experts had to say?

I read it thoroughly. I believe Wecht examined photos of the death scene to come to his conclusion. Those photos were taken by Navy internal affairs, right? As Peter pointed out, in this case that is the equivalent of taking evidence that came back out of the Alice In Wonderland rabbit hole straight and without question. The end results of a professional 'suicide' would look no different than that of a real one. I think it was Janney's book that had a quote from a CIA insider saying "Anyone can commit a murder. It takes a real expert to commit a suicide". Since your forensic evidence is weak at best, the vastly overwhelming circumstantial evidence of Dan Marvin's account and Dennis David's witnessing has the most bearing.

A proper detective would look for clues like David's mention of seeing a 16mm film in Pitzer's office. This tells you something about the equipment being used. I don't know what the Bethesda configuration for equipment was, but the 16mm film tells you what camera was used for that shooting. I'm guessing this would make a hand-held 16mm camera at the covert pre-autopsy more likely and therefore tell you why Pitzer wasn't registered at the 8pm autopsy. It was because he had felt he had done his duty and filmed the 6:30 autopsy thinking it was finished. There's many possibilities from there. He could have also filmed the 8pm autopsy remotely. Maybe the remote filming equipment was 16mm? It is highly possible the first person to realize the Lifton alteration theory was Pitzer himself and he was in a position to prove it. Ironically Pitzer himself was probably a strong proponent of "proof".

In any case, as I pointed out, to take Mr Hay's position is to call David and Marvin liars. If you pay attention to Hay's arguments he carefully stays away from that and never quite owns up to it. Mr David's story tells you Pitzer filmed the covert autopsy because that was the only place where the front right entry wound was visible. And Mr Marvin's story tells you how and why Pitzer ended up the way he did.

I would bet if we re-approached Dr Wecht and presented him the full evidence he would say it was possible Pitzer was "suicided".

[Martin Hay]

For the record, I'd like to point out that Seamus kindly started this thread to link to my blog and that nowhere on any of my blog entries is the name Pitzer mentioned even once.

Albert Doyle brought this unrelated issue up for reasons all his own. Apparently he feels that my not believing Pitzer was murdered somehow puts me in league with David Von Pein despite all the work I've done over the years to counter the official lone nut fairy tale.

[Albert Doyle]

However, it goes to show folk will use minor issues like Pitzer to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Sure, the "minor issue" of an open case of a brave military insider coming forward with smoking gun proof of a military conspiracy and coup being murdered by CIA to cover it up.

[Seamus Coogan]

However, it goes to show folk will use minor issues like Pitzer to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Sure, the "minor issue" of an open case of a brave military insider coming forward with smoking gun proof of a military conspiracy and coup being murdered by CIA to cover it up.

Albert you have missed the point of the thread mate. I don't think anybody here has a problem with you personally digging Pitzer being murdered. Even if perchance Marty is wrong about Pitzer, does it indict all of the other stuff? The point here mate, is that our old Holocaust denying pal Mr Fetzer is clowning around with his sworn enemy David Lifton. That for me is very intriguing!

[Don Jeffries]

Martin,

I mean no offense, either, but we are odds here, as we were quite a few times at the EF. You and Lee Farley very correctly took David Lifton to task for his blind reliance on government sources, yet you're doing the same thing here. We're on the same side, ultimately, but I think you're misguided to be so certain that Pitzer committed suicide. Maybe he did, but I think there's a strong case he was murdered, especially when you factor in all the others connected to this case who were.

But you're right, this thread was started to promote your blog, and I apologize for participating in sidetracking it.

[Martin Hay]

Martin,

I mean no offense, either, but we are odds here, as we were quite a few times at the EF. You and Lee Farley very correctly took David Lifton to task for his blind reliance on government sources, yet you're doing the same thing here. We're on the same side, ultimately, but I think you're misguided to be so certain that Pitzer committed suicide. Maybe he did, but I think there's a strong case he was murdered, especially when you factor in all the others connected to this case who were.

But you're right, this thread was started to promote your blog, and I apologize for participating in sidetracking it.

Don,

I don't remember us being at odds much. Perhaps I just said a lot of things that annoyed you and you kept it to yourself

In any case, just to be clear, my thoughts on the Pitzer case are in no way reliant on government sources - unless you somehow consider Cyril Wecht and Herbert MacDonnell to be government sources.

Perhaps it would be useful if somebody started a thread on the Pitzer case and listed all the evidence that supports the idea that he was murdered. Maybe I'll learn something.

[David Josephs]

Martin,

I mean no offense, either, but we are odds here, as we were quite a few times at the EF. You and Lee Farley very correctly took David Lifton to task for his blind reliance on government sources, yet you're doing the same thing here. We're on the same side, ultimately, but I think you're misguided to be so certain that Pitzer committed suicide. Maybe he did, but I think there's a strong case he was murdered, especially when you factor in all the others connected to this case who were.

But you're right, this thread was started to promote your blog, and I apologize for participating in sidetracking it.

Don,

I don't remember us being at odds much. Perhaps I just said a lot of things that annoyed you and you kept it to yourself

In any case, just to be clear, my thoughts on the Pitzer case are in no way reliant on government sources - unless you somehow consider Cyril Wecht and Herbert MacDonnell to be government sources.

Perhaps it would be useful if somebody started a thread on the Pitzer case and listed all the evidence that supports the idea that he was murdered. Maybe I'll learn something.

A number of good threads have been done on Pitzer...

Martin calls for ANY EVIDENCE of murder... (and another thread - you decide if we really need one)

Step one of this evidence is whether the autopsy reveals the telltale signs of suicide... close contact marks on the skin at the entry point and powder burns on the hand which fired the pistol...
- according to the tests done, neither is true... while reports from that night claim that there WERE powder burns, there is not evidence of such.

Step two of this evidence is to corroborate that Pitzer did indeed film the autopsy room PRIOR to 8pm
- Could that be Urban legend? Fromwhat I read Pitzer was getting ready to embark on a private career and gave no indication of suicidal tendencies.
Do we have a photo of the the RR Yard shot? do we KNOW there was one based on the result of said shot?

Dr. George Bakeman, USN is listed as having attended the autopsy - yet this person was never found and there is no information as to who he was.. Could this have been Pitzer whose name is not listed... who in turn WAS there, did take photos and film and yet was erased from the day? Speculation at best... but a thought.

Martin... we have Benavidas' brother being shot, thinking it was him, cause he SAW someone yet could not be identified as our OSWALD
In this case we have a man KNOWN to have CCTV in the morgue, who shows the results to his friend DD who in turn describes the pre-altered wounds exactly.

Why DD has not been removed from the equation has always puzzled me... he is one of the few two casket entry witnesses left...
If you are going to say Pitzer was Suicide, in the face of evidence against such a conclusion if reviewed in the REAL world of cause and effect,
I think you must also be calling DD a liar about where Pitzer was that night...

Can you point to any questions asked of any of the Bethesda witnesses about whether Pitzer WAS there...
in all my reading I cannot remember anyone being asked about Pitzer

You?

DJ




From the work Allen E did and posted:
The autopsy doctors prepared paraffin casts of the palm and back of the deceased right hand. The
FBI laboratory technician collected samples from the surfaces of the paraffin casts, concentrating
on dark particles 14 from the back of the hand and dark particles 58 from the palm, none of
which tested positively for barium or antimony.
[size=12]
[/SIZE]The technician summarized her/his findings as, "Examination of (the) paraffin cast(s) reflected no
substance characteristic of, or which could be associated with, gunpowder or gunshot residue."
However, the back of the right hand had "large amounts of blood, skin and hair."

Repeatedly in the interviews with the autopsy doctors, there is an argument as to whether the pistol's muzzle was in contact with the skin...
While the initial examination mentions powder burns at the site of the wound...

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Finally - since DD was not in the autopsy room... any idea why he would make this part up about Pitzer?
Or how he would know about the exact location of the wounds? Does thisnot suggest that Pitzer did indeed film what happened between 6:45 and 7:45?



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[Seamus Coogan]

Yes a number of threads have been done on Pitzer. This thread is not one of them mate. I posted it to show as I stated Marty's blog. However, the clincher is the article discussing Fetzer and Lifton doing an Everly Brothers reunion. That for myself is the point of discussion. I am probably to blame for not stating the intent more clearly.

P.S. I have to say the debates with you and Marty on the other threads have been great reading by the way.

[Martin Hay]

David,

You wrote: "Step one of this evidence is whether the autopsy reveals the telltale signs of suicide... close contact marks on the skin at the entry point and powder burns on the hand which fired the pistol..."

World renowned forensics expert Professor Herbert L. MacDonnell wrote a detailed report which concluded, "Based upon the agreement of the four above points, I conclude that William Bruce Pitzer's death was the result of a self-inflected gunshot wound. It is almost impossible that someone could have shot him and accidentally done so within the above considerations."

You know, MacDonnel does know his stuff. Seriously. As does Dr. Cyril Wecht who said "...this has all the characteristics of a suicidal wound." I'm not gonna question these two men who are both brilliant at what they do and both extremely independent minded. There is no known forensic evidence of murder. Period.

You wrote: "Step two of this evidence is to corroborate that Pitzer did indeed film the autopsy room PRIOR to 8pm"

Go ahead. Find credible witness testimony to place him there. Find a single document that places him at Bethesda that night. Then find evidence that he was filming the autopsy.

You wrote: "Fromwhat I read Pitzer was getting ready to embark on a private career and gave no indication of suicidal tendencies."

Harold Rydberg wrote: "His wife stated "he loved the military, and would never think of committing suicideon a military base, that would be embarrassing to the military and to his career." However, I stand by my theory of loss of identity with upcoming retirement fromthe military, and complications of his making. He was a walking poster for themilitary. He was looked up to all who knew him. There were signs of suicide: on the evening he was last seen he was not neat andtidy; shooting the pistol after a class, even though they were blanks, was irrational;and having a .38 cartridge for the pistol (having signed out blanks), indicatespremeditation."

You wrote: "Martin... we have Benavidas' brother being shot, thinking it was him, cause he SAW someone yet could not be identified as our OSWALD"

Irrelevant. Has nothing to do with the Pitzer suicide.

You wrote: "In this case we have a man KNOWN to have CCTV in the morgue"

Known how? What documentation do we have of this claim?

You wrote: "who shows the results to his friend DD who in turn describes the pre-altered wounds exactly."

Years later, after many books have been published on the subject claiming there was a big difference between what was seen at Parkland and Bethesda.

You wrote: "Why DD has not been removed from the equation has always puzzled me"

It doesn't puzzle me in the slightest.

You wrote: "If you are going to say Pitzer was Suicide, in the face of evidence against such a conclusion if reviewed in the REAL world of cause and effect, I think you must also be calling DD a liar about where Pitzer was that night..."

David could be lying. Or he could be mistaken. It was a very long time before he was asked what he saw that night. Human memory is easily influenced and confused.

You wrote: "Can you point to any questions asked of any of the Bethesda witnesses about whether Pitzer WAS there...
in all my reading I cannot remember anyone being asked about Pitzer"

IIRC William Matson Law asked some of those interviewed for his book.

You wrote: "Finally - since DD was not in the autopsy room... any idea why he would make this part up about Pitzer?
Or how he would know about the exact location of the wounds?"

Already addressed this point. The Parkland descriptions were published in numerous books before Dennis David told his story.





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[Seamus Coogan]

Holy cow! Pitzer is a sad case, a bloke died. He had a family and friends; thus, for me to say he is irrelevant is not cool. Whether or not it was suspicious or not it really had little impact on the Kennedy case when all is said and done. Furthermore, Marty has not mentioned Pitzer in either article. It seems really odd to me people are latching on. Like I say I agree with Marty; nevertheless, if people want to go with Pitzer than that is their buzz.