Sean Murphy's research deserves more

[Lauren Johnson]

Look at the photo Bob. He's ahead of Lovelady in the portal. That's why the sun is illuminating his hand.

OK, I understand what you are getting at and it makes no sense. PM may be holding a bright object or his hand is in the sun or both, however only his hand is in the sun if at all. Lovelady's entire body is in the sun. Ergo, PM is mostly in the shade.

Lauren, you don't seem to understand what is being argued here. You admitted his hand was in the sun. That is also what I am saying. I assure you, if you analyze the photo, Prayer Man will be in a position slightly forward of Lovelady, as his hand being in the sun evidences. I was never saying Prayer Man wasn't in the shade. I don't know where you got that from.

If you read my argument more closely you will see I was specifically saying Prayer Man is standing slightly more forward to the south than Lovelady in the illuminated hand shot. This is evidenced by the fact he has his hand brightened by the sun. There's another example of this same photo in the Education Forum that I can't find. It makes it even clearer. The reason Lovelady is in more sun than Prayer Man is because of the sun angle in the portal. You can see this proven by the vertical shade line down Lovelady's torso. The rest of what I wrote then follows.

Albert, I am hoping that one of the photo guys will come along and enlighten the situation.

In the meantime, you strenuously argue against Oswald being outside on the front steps. I have agreed with this position until the Sean Murphy thread started up and I started looking into it. To me, it's very important.

Okay, you don't buy it. But what is at stake here? It is something important or else you would say, "Whatever. Nothing changes, really."

[Bob Prudhomme]

Prayer Man is backed into the corner of the portal, up against the glass doors, as far as he can get. The only way Lovelady could be standing further into the portal than PM would be if he was standing on the inside of the glass door, which he was not.

[Lauren Johnson]

Prayer Man is backed into the corner of the portal, up against the glass doors, as far as he can get. The only way Lovelady could be standing further into the portal than PM would be if he was standing on the inside of the glass door, which he was not.

I am going to try to do my version what you are saying.

First, from the full frame, I identify African-American Man, probably already given another name, as AFM and Lovelady (BL) and Prayer Man (PM).

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5735[/ATTACH]

Notice all three persons in the upper left.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5736[/ATTACH]

Notice AFM and BL are both visible. Draw an imaginary line between AFM and BL. According to your theory, Albert, PM should be visible in this image framed by BL's torso. He's not there. Therefore, he has to be back to BL's left in the shade.

[Albert Doyle]

Prayer Man is backed into the corner of the portal, up against the glass doors, as far as he can get. The only way Lovelady could be standing further into the portal than PM would be if he was standing on the inside of the glass door, which he was not.

That isn't the illuminated hand shot. The illuminated hand frame is from Wiegman. It's outlined in Sean Murphy's post #213:



http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index....54&page=15


.

[Albert Doyle]

I am going to try to do my version what you are saying.

First, from the full frame, I identify African-American Man, probably already given another name, as AFM and Lovelady (BL) and Prayer Man (PM).

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5735[/ATTACH]

Notice all three persons in the upper left.

Good. Correct. The above illuminated hand photo is from Wiegman.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5736[/ATTACH]

Notice AFM and BL are both visible. Draw an imaginary line between AFM and BL. According to your theory, Albert, PM should be visible in this image framed by BL's torso. He's not there. Therefore, he has to be back to BL's left in the shade.

No. My theory doesn't say that. Altgens is very deceptive because the lens type compresses the perspective significantly. There's a lot more room and depth to Lovelady's right than Altgens suggests. Realize that Lovelady is on the center rail in Altgens which shows how much of the portal's west half is obscured by the facade pillar. Enough to allow Prayer Man to be slightly forward of Lovelady in the North to South plane of the portal while not being visible in Altgens.

You have to be careful though because the illuminated hand picture is not the same photo as Altgens. You are comparing two opposite angles. You have to remember there's a 90 degree perspective shift between the photos. If you look at the illuminated hand photo it shows Prayer Man slightly forward of Lovelady. If you did high tech analysis you would see that anatomically Prayer Man's hand could only be a certain distance from his body according to his posture. Once you calculated the shade plane you would see the geometric triangulation would place Prayer Man slightly ahead of Lovelady. He can still be in the shade and be ahead of Lovelady on the North-South plane. But you can just look at the picture and see it as well.

[David Josephs]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5737[/ATTACH]


Looks like a watch to me... What gets me is that PM hardly moves at all.... between these two images

FWIW

[Lauren Johnson]

I am going to try to do my version what you are saying.

First, from the full frame, I identify African-American Man, probably already given another name, as AFM and Lovelady (BL) and Prayer Man (PM).

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5735[/ATTACH]

Notice all three persons in the upper left.

Good. Correct. The above illuminated hand photo is from Wiegman.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5736[/ATTACH]

Notice AFM and BL are both visible. Draw an imaginary line between AFM and BL. According to your theory, Albert, PM should be visible in this image framed by BL's torso. He's not there. Therefore, he has to be back to BL's left in the shade.

No. My theory doesn't say that. Altgens is very deceptive because the lens type compresses the perspective significantly. There's a lot more room and depth to Lovelady's right than Altgens suggests. Realize that Lovelady is on the center rail in Altgens which shows how much of the portal's west half is obscured by the facade pillar. Enough to allow Prayer Man to be slightly forward of Lovelady in the North to South plane of the portal while not being visible in Altgens.

You have to be careful though because the illuminated hand picture is not the same photo as Altgens. You are comparing two opposite angles. You have to remember there's a 90 degree perspective shift between the photos. If you look at the illuminated hand photo it shows Prayer Man slightly forward of Lovelady. If you did high tech analysis you would see that anatomically Prayer Man's hand could only be a certain distance from his body according to his posture. Once you calculated the shade plane you would see the geometric triangulation would place Prayer Man slightly ahead of Lovelady. He can still be in the shade and be ahead of Lovelady on the North-South plane. But you can just look at the picture and see it as well.

yes, the indeed are about 90[SUP]0[/SUP] off axis, which is why they are so valuable. They can be thought of as setting up an xy grid. The negative end of the y-axis points of the scree toward the viewer, and let's say it pass right through PM. The Altgen 6 photo is looking nearly right down the x-axis with the negative end passing through AFM and the positive end passing through BL. From looking at these two photos, one can roughly locate PM on this grid. But you have to use BOTH. Looking along the x-axis (Altgen 6), it is clear BL does not break that plane. He is behind both AFM and BL. Looking along the y-axis (Weigman), it is clear that he is to the right of BL and to the left of AFM. His values on this imaginary grid and this my guess: y=3' and x=0.

Why is this significant? Anything along the AFM/BL plane is in the sun. Any person along that plane would be very visible. PM is not visible. To me, I see him as leaning against the corner of the entry.

Having said all this, I am reasonably certain you and I will never agree. Just won't happen. If anyone can settle this, that would help.

So, once again, why does this matter to you? You have accused some people of trying to place Oswald in the entry way. Why is this important to you?

[Lauren Johnson]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5737[/ATTACH]


Looks like a watch to me... What gets me is that PM hardly moves at all.... between these two images

FWIW

This is significant. It strikes me first, that Oswald is not surprised or he would be out in the island with Lovelady. The timing is important. He comes out just as the assassination is going to take place. Does he have an assignment? Or along the Charlie Drago lines, did he expect a fake assassination drill, and suddenly it went live. "Now what do I do? I better get to the Texas Theater for instructions."

[Bob Prudhomme]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5737[/ATTACH]


Looks like a watch to me... What gets me is that PM hardly moves at all.... between these two images

FWIW

Actually, it is almost spooky how little he moves.

[Albert Doyle]

yes, the indeed are about 90[SUP]0[/SUP] off axis, which is why they are so valuable. They can be thought of as setting up an xy grid. The negative end of the y-axis points of the scree toward the viewer, and let's say it pass right through PM. The Altgen 6 photo is looking nearly right down the x-axis with the negative end passing through AFM and the positive end passing through BL. From looking at these two photos, one can roughly locate PM on this grid.

Which is exactly why Prayer Man would not be blocking Lovelady in Altgens. That triangulation you cite would definitely put him back into the shadows obscured by the pillar facade. y=3' does that. If you are going to do that however you absolutely have to mention that the figures in question might not be in the same places from picture to picture.

But you have to use BOTH. Looking along the x-axis (Altgen 6), it is clear BL does not break that plane. He is behind both AFM and BL. Looking along the y-axis (Weigman), it is clear that he is to the right of BL and to the left of AFM. His values on this imaginary grid and this my guess: y=3' and x=0.

I think you are saying Prayer Man is 3 feet past the origin of the x/y axis. I think you also meant PM when you said BL.

Why is this significant? Anything along the AFM/BL plane is in the sun. Any person along that plane would be very visible. PM is not visible. To me, I see him as leaning against the corner of the entry.

But we were never really talking about Prayer Man being visible in the sense of African American Man and Lovelady. You keep mentioning that but it's something I never said. You can't say where Prayer Man is in Altgens since you can't see him.

Having said all this, I am reasonably certain you and I will never agree. Just won't happen. If anyone can settle this, that would help.

So, once again, why does this matter to you? You have accused some people of trying to place Oswald in the entry way. Why is this important to you?

Because I think they are missing/ignoring some important evidence as my posts should have already made clear.


I don't think my shade plane argument has been answered. If you establish the sun shadow shade plane across the west side of the portal I think it will prove Prayer Man has the back of his hand or knuckles and fingers in faint light in Wiegman. If you do anatomical measurements you will see Prayer Man's body can only be so far back from his lit hand according to his posture. Analyze Lovelady's position along that plane and I think you can geometrically prove he's slightly further back than Prayer Man in the portal. Do you understand that Lovelady can be in the sun and still be further back into the portal than Prayer Man according to the given factors?