The Truth about the WC at Last

[Bob Prudhomme]

The Timing of the Encounter with Oswald

The FBI reported that Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald after she had left the TSBD. According to the first account, she had left the building by 12:15; according to the second, she left at 12:25. The first statement, which she was not given the opportunity to check, is likely to be less reliable than the second, which she was required to sign.

Both of Carolyn Arnold's statements, but especially the second, corroborate the accounts of two employees, James "Junior" Jarman and Harold Norman, who indirectly attested to Oswald's presence on the first floor at "between 12:20 and 12:25," in Jarman's words (see Lee Harvey Oswald's alibi).

[Albert Doyle]

I went through Geneva Hines' WC testimony again and, although she testified that Oswald came by most days at noon (not 12:30) to get change for the Coke machine, she makes no mention of seeing him on 22/11/63. Perhaps you could share with us any information you have that would contradict her WC testimony?

Which has what to do with Groden's quote of Hine saying she was shelling out change while the shots went off? The motorcade day was a special day at the Depository. Trusting WC testimony can be tenuous.

I'm a little confused here about Buell Wesley Frazier and I hope you can help me on this. If Frazier was "gotten to" at the hospital and threatened into silence, wouldn't that mean there was a very good possibility he had not only seen but actually conversed with Oswald on the top steps of the TSBD entrance, but was too frightened to tell anyone? For that matter, how do you know that other witnesses on the steps (ie. Lovelady, Shelley, etc.) weren't also "gotten to"?

That's a logical assumption that you know would be cut down quickly in court Bob. One obviously does not automatically equate to the other.

I think the answer to this is something you've consecutively evaded the 4 or 5 times I've pointed it out. There were too many people and too many unrelated civilians headed towards the Depository entrance to have not seen Oswald standing there in broad daylight. Too many people who he would had to have mingled with face to face in the bottleneck of the entry way etc. Maybe you could help me by answering that.

And "Fritz was there" is supposed to impress us? His shorthand notes, as I told you earlier, were not written for at least a week after the assassination. The 2nd floor lunch room encounter with Truly and Baker had already been concocted, so Fritz writing this down a week later means nothing.

It pretty much matches what other people saw. The best you are offering is presumptuous speculation because I already explained the Dallas PD had good reason to know Oswald was a spook. So his lunchroom encounter being omitted could be perfectly reasonable if he was being kept off the record until they figured out how to handle it. Maybe Baker kept one Oswald off the record because he had seen another on the 4th floor landing?

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[Martin White]

So Arnold's statement says she left the building at 12:25 and did not return on that date?

So much for the arguments of DVP et al that Oswald was the only TSBD employee not present when Truly took the roll call.

Or have I missed the point entirely? (which is likely! :-)

[Bob Prudhomme]

Albert

Are you saying Robert Groden claims that Geneva Hines was giving change to Oswald at the very moment of the assassination? Could you give us a link to an interview or something that would back this up?

[Drew Phipps]

So Arnold's statement says she left the building at 12:25 and did not return on that date?

So much for the arguments of DVP et al that Oswald was the only TSBD employee not present when Truly took the roll call.

Or have I missed the point entirely? (which is likely! :-)

That was entirely the point of that quote!

[Albert Doyle]

Albert

Are you saying Robert Groden claims that Geneva Hines was giving change to Oswald at the very moment of the assassination? Could you give us a link to an interview or something that would back this up?

That's 6 times you've ducked answering how Prayerman being Oswald defies the recorded statistical record of witness sightings for Oswald. If you look at the assassination and its Oswald sightings you have a fairly consistent percentage of witnesses seeing Oswald in the locations he was seen. Yet with Prayerman you are claiming Oswald was right smack in the middle of the Assassination's Times Square in the book Depository portal yet wasn't seen by anyone. That includes the 20 people or more shown in the Prayerman photo headed towards the entrance. Not to mention those in the door bottleneck you have also avoided answering. While this particular Oswald appearance would have probably had the highest amount of potential witnesses it then clashes with that statistical/scientific average by having no witnesses. So the sighting that should have had the highest amount of witnesses actually radically contradicts the normal sighting statistics to a total degree. I'm confused Bob. Maybe you could help me with this by answering it?

[Bob Prudhomme]

Albert

Are you saying Robert Groden claims that Geneva Hines was giving change to Oswald at the very moment of the assassination? Could you give us a link to an interview or something that would back this up?

That's 6 times you've ducked answering how Prayerman being Oswald defies the recorded statistical record of witness sightings for Oswald. If you look at the assassination and its Oswald sightings you have a fairly consistent percentage of witnesses seeing Oswald in the locations he was seen. Yet with Prayerman you are claiming Oswald was right smack in the middle of the Assassination's Times Square in the book Depository portal yet wasn't seen by anyone. That includes the 20 people or more shown in the Prayerman photo headed towards the entrance. Not to mention those in the door bottleneck you have also avoided answering. While this particular Oswald appearance would have probably had the highest amount of potential witnesses it then clashes with that statistical/scientific average by having no witnesses. So the sighting that should have had the highest amount of witnesses actually radically contradicts the normal sighting statistics to a total degree. I'm confused Bob. Maybe you could help me with this by answering it?

Does this mean you're not going to give us a link to a Groden interview which will show Geneva Hine telling him she was giving Oswald change at the time the shots were fired?

From the Warren Commission testimony of Geneva Hine:

"[size=12][size=12]Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones
became dead because the motorcafle was coming near us and no one was calling
so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to the window?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you look out?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. B&L. What did you see?
Miss HINE. I saw the escort car come first up the middle of Houston Street.
Mr. BALL. Going north on Houston Street?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; going north on Houston Street. I saw it turn left and
I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving
his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the
corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming
just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots.
Mr. BALL. How many did you hear?
Miss HINE. Three.
Mr. BALL. Could you tell where the shots were coming from?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir ; they came from inside the building.
Mr. BALL. How do you know that?
Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the explosion
coming in."

I guess she just forgot to mention Oswald was getting change from her at this moment, right?

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[Dawn Meredith]

The main problem with Oswald being in the Altgens photo is that he denies it himself, and tells Fritz and the boys he was in the lunchroom. Why would Oswald give up a verifiable alibi for a less verifiable one?

Excellent point. People saw him there, drinking a soda. No one saw him walk down the stairs. I place little value on what you can really discern in these photos. When I first saw Altgens back in 73 it LOOKED like LHO. Later I agreed that it was Lovelady. Now we have Fetzer and Cinque with an entire campaign about this being LHO. Bullshit. Pure disinformation as far as I am concerned.

Dawn

[Bob Prudhomme]

The main problem with Oswald being in the Altgens photo is that he denies it himself, and tells Fritz and the boys he was in the lunchroom. Why would Oswald give up a verifiable alibi for a less verifiable one?

Excellent point. People saw him there, drinking a soda. No one saw him walk down the stairs. I place little value on what you can really discern in these photos. When I first saw Altgens back in 73 it LOOKED like LHO. Later I agreed that it was Lovelady. Now we have Fetzer and Cinque with an entire campaign about this being LHO. Bullshit. Pure disinformation as far as I am concerned.

Dawn

I don't think that anyone posting in this thread has tried to state that the person ID'ed in the Altgens photo as Billy Lovelady is actually Oswald.

Which people saw Oswald in the lunch room drinking a soda, Dawn?

[Albert Doyle]

Does this mean you're not going to give us a link to a Groden interview which will show Geneva Hine telling him she was giving Oswald change at the time the shots were fired?[size=12]
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No. It means you're not going to give an honest answer to what I wrote. You're speaking with a tone that assumes a credible position but I don't think you've earned it with what you type. I think it's obvious that the chances of no one seeing Oswald with that many potential witnesses is beyond possibility.

I actually found a woman some years ago. She was terrified. She did not want to come forward. And she finally agreed to give an interview, and I did interview her. When the shots actually went off, she was talking to Lee Oswald on the second floor. We always assumed that Lee had the change, that he had had the change for the machine. He didn't. He went into the office across from the snack room with a dollar bill and asked for change. He said, "No pennies, please." And, as the change was being counted out into his hand, the shots went off. And they looked at each other, this woman and Lee, and [asked], "What was that?" Backfires, firecrack[ers], who knew?
He got the rest of the change, walked back across the hall, bought the Coke and then just a little over a minute later there was a gun in his ribs held by Officer Baker. Lee had an airtight alibi. He could not possibly have done this. She told this story to the Warren Commission. They told her to keep her mouth shut. And she did. She told very few people. Very few people. I was one of the few that she did. So I got to speak to her because I had a friend who knew a friend of hers. I had to promise her I would never reveal any of this until after she was gone. And now she is. The whole story, including her name, will be in the next book.

Quote FBI and the Commission at your own risk.