Myra Bronstein Wrote:And who took the SS guys to the Cellar to get them drunk and sleep deprived the night/morning before. I get the impression that this is not the only time the SS was drunk and disorderly when they should have been resting up to guard President Kennedy. Still, the Cellar episode just feels like part of the setup.
And why exactly did the SS hate JFK? I keep reading that they did but why? Just because they were (are?) a bunch of rednecks and JFK was becoming a civil rights president? Because he integrated the SS? Because some, like Emory Roberts, thought their careers would go better with LBJ at the helm? Was it ambition combined with hate?
I accept as a fact that the SS stood down and worse. But I don't understand why.
Or: why did the agents in the car behind JFK all pile out and run toward the grassy knoll? All their training should have been to put bodies around Kennedy and Jackie. They so doggedly DIDN'T follow SOP that you have to wonder why.
I agree with the post above me too, it's not enough to say "CIA did it" or "SS did it." So you have to suspect Emory, Kellerman or the other guy whose name slips my mind right now at least had a reason for ordering SS WHD and agents called up for Dallas to not follow their training, procedures and protocols. It looks like LBJ to me because he could have legitimately changed the parade route and told SS bosses what to do, but it's supposition, and the SS bosses didn't have to follow his command, so they're either complicit or got sucked in by a whopper of a lie. There's too many things they failed to do to make it the usual SNAFU.
You might benefit from researching the security stripping/false attack-test scenario originally developed by George Michael Evica and later given serious consideration by Peter Dale Scott, et al.
Or: why did the agents in the car behind JFK all pile out and run toward the grassy knoll? All their training should have been to put bodies around Kennedy and Jackie. They so doggedly DIDN'T follow SOP that you have to wonder why.
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I wasn't aware that the agents in Emory Robert's car piled out and ran towards the knoll. Can you please point me to a source for that so I can learn more about it Helen?
Helen Reyes Wrote:...
ss obviously did stand down and totally ignored their own practices in advance sweeps, in not closing windows, in allowing last minute changes to the parade route and in allowing it to go forward after the route was published in dallas papers. further, local military intelligence was not used, neither for security nor for background checks on potential local threats. fletcher prouty talked about all this back in his guns of dallas.
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Helen,
The SS clearly stood down in Dallas. I think Fletcher Prouty's observations are spot on. But, to further muddy the mud, President Kennedy's security was conspicuously lax during his Tampa trip, immediately before Dallas, as well.
I don't know the specifics of the Tampa trip as well as I know the specifics of the Dallas setup, wherein they stripped ALL security and did everything but paint a bullseye on the President. But it looks like the SS left him wide open in Tampa.
Or: why did the agents in the car behind JFK all pile out and run toward the grassy knoll? All their training should have been to put bodies around Kennedy and Jackie. They so doggedly DIDN'T follow SOP that you have to wonder why.
...
I wasn't aware that the agents in Emory Robert's car piled out and ran towards the knoll. Can you please point me to a source for that so I can learn more about it Helen?
The false trail up the knoll:
Quote:1) Ronald B. Fischer: “And, after that, we stood there for 10 or 15 seconds and then we ran up to the top of the hill there where all the Secret Service men had run, thinking that that's where the bullets had come from since they seemed to be searching that area over there. They jumped off-out of cars and ran up the side of the hill there and onto the tracks where these passenger--freight cars were,” 6WCH196
2) Jack Franzen: “He noticed the men, who were presumed to be Secret Service Agents, riding in the car directly behind the President's car, unloading from the car, some with firearms in their hands, and noticed police officers and these plain clothesmen [sic] running up the grassy slope across Elm Street from his location and toward a wooded and bushy area located across Elm Street from him”:
Quote:FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
Date: 11/24/63
Mr. JACK FRANZEN, 10572, [sic] Cromwell Circle, telephone FL 7-3717, who is employed by the Fox and Jacob Construction Company, 9106 Soverign [sic] Row, was contacted in response to a telephone call received from him at 1900 Main Street.
Mr. FRANZEN advised he and his wife and small son were standing in the grass area west of Houston Street and south of Elm Street at the time the President's motorcade arrived at that location at approximately 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963. He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President's car and noticed small fragments flying inside the President's car and immediately assumed that someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile. He heard a second and third and possibly a fourth explosion and recognized these sounds as being shots fired from some firearm. At the same time he noticed blood appearing at the top and sides of the head of President Kennedy. He noticed a colored family consisting of a man, woman and small child nearby and at the sound of these shots the man picked up the small boy and ran with the woman west on Elm Street toward the overpass. During the ensuing confusion he remembers looking at the side of the building occupied by the Texas School Book Depository, located across Elm Street from his position but does not remember seeing anything of a suspicious nature with regard to that building. He noticed the men, who were presumed to be Secret Service Agents, riding in the car directly behind the President's car, unloading from the car, some with firearms in their hands, and noticed police officers and these plain clothesmen [sic] running up the grassy slope across Elm Street from his location and toward a wooded and bushy area located across Elm Street from him.
Because of this activity he presumed the shots which were fired came from the shrubbery or bushes toward which these officers appeared to be running.
He looked over the crowd which had assembled along both sides of Elm Street in this block but noticed nothing which appeared unusual among these spectators.
Mr. FRANZEN advised he is aware that the information which he has furnished may not be of any particular significance but advised in view of his close proximity to the President's vehicle at the time of these shots, felt that he possibly should furnish whatever information he could.
on 11/22/63 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 89-43
by Special Agents Alfred C. Ellington and Joseph L. Loeffler [sp
Apologies for "unresigning," but I couldn't resist!
Paul
PS: Secret Service on Elm immediately post-shooting:
1) Earl Cabell: “No; we couldn't tell. We could tell, of course, there was confusion in the presidential car--activity. The Secret Service men ran to that car,” 7WCH479.
2) James Chaney and other unnamed Dallas officers, as related by fellow motorcycle outrider, Marrion L. Baker: “I talked to Jim Chaney…during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get into the car…from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped…I heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly he was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely,” 3WCH265.
3) Norman Similas: “I swung back to look at the car. A Secret Service man ran up with his gun drawn…The Secret Service man opened the car door and I saw the President slumped down to the floor…,” Source: “‘I saw president fall’ – Willowdale man,” Toronto Daily Star, (All Star Night edition), Friday, 22 November 1963, pp.1&13
4) Robert Baskin: “The motorcade ground to a halt. There was a good deal of activity round the President’s car, with Secret Service men running about,” Source: “Day Began As Auspiciously As Any in Kennedy’s Career,” The Dallas Morning News, 23 November 1963, p.2
SS men checking the presidential condition is entirely logical when you think about - we couldn't have the target reaching the hospital in a survivable condition.
"It means this War was never political at all, the politics was all theatre, all just to keep the people distracted...."
"Proverbs for Paranoids 4: You hide, They seek."
"They are in Love. Fuck the War." Gravity's Rainbow, Thomas Pynchon
"Ccollanan Pachacamac ricuy auccacunac yahuarniy hichascancuta." The last words of the last Inka, Tupac Amaru, led to the gallows by men of god & dogs of war
Or: why did the agents in the car behind JFK all pile out and run toward the grassy knoll? All their training should have been to put bodies around Kennedy and Jackie. They so doggedly DIDN'T follow SOP that you have to wonder why.
...
I wasn't aware that the agents in Emory Robert's car piled out and ran towards the knoll. Can you please point me to a source for that so I can learn more about it Helen?
The false trail up the knoll:
Quote:1) Ronald B. Fischer: “And, after that, we stood there for 10 or 15 seconds and then we ran up to the top of the hill there where all the Secret Service men had run, thinking that that's where the bullets had come from since they seemed to be searching that area over there. They jumped off-out of cars and ran up the side of the hill there and onto the tracks where these passenger--freight cars were,” 6WCH196
2) Jack Franzen: “He noticed the men, who were presumed to be Secret Service Agents, riding in the car directly behind the President's car, unloading from the car, some with firearms in their hands, and noticed police officers and these plain clothesmen [sic] running up the grassy slope across Elm Street from his location and toward a wooded and bushy area located across Elm Street from him”:
Quote:FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
Date: 11/24/63
Mr. JACK FRANZEN, 10572, [sic] Cromwell Circle, telephone FL 7-3717, who is employed by the Fox and Jacob Construction Company, 9106 Soverign [sic] Row, was contacted in response to a telephone call received from him at 1900 Main Street.
Mr. FRANZEN advised he and his wife and small son were standing in the grass area west of Houston Street and south of Elm Street at the time the President's motorcade arrived at that location at approximately 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963. He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President's car and noticed small fragments flying inside the President's car and immediately assumed that someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile. He heard a second and third and possibly a fourth explosion and recognized these sounds as being shots fired from some firearm. At the same time he noticed blood appearing at the top and sides of the head of President Kennedy. He noticed a colored family consisting of a man, woman and small child nearby and at the sound of these shots the man picked up the small boy and ran with the woman west on Elm Street toward the overpass. During the ensuing confusion he remembers looking at the side of the building occupied by the Texas School Book Depository, located across Elm Street from his position but does not remember seeing anything of a suspicious nature with regard to that building. He noticed the men, who were presumed to be Secret Service Agents, riding in the car directly behind the President's car, unloading from the car, some with firearms in their hands, and noticed police officers and these plain clothesmen [sic] running up the grassy slope across Elm Street from his location and toward a wooded and bushy area located across Elm Street from him.
Because of this activity he presumed the shots which were fired came from the shrubbery or bushes toward which these officers appeared to be running.
He looked over the crowd which had assembled along both sides of Elm Street in this block but noticed nothing which appeared unusual among these spectators.
Mr. FRANZEN advised he is aware that the information which he has furnished may not be of any particular significance but advised in view of his close proximity to the President's vehicle at the time of these shots, felt that he possibly should furnish whatever information he could.
on 11/22/63 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 89-43
by Special Agents Alfred C. Ellington and Joseph L. Loeffler [sp
Apologies for "unresigning," but I couldn't resist!
Paul
PS: Secret Service on Elm immediately post-shooting:
1) Earl Cabell: “No; we couldn't tell. We could tell, of course, there was confusion in the presidential car--activity. The Secret Service men ran to that car,” 7WCH479.
2) James Chaney and other unnamed Dallas officers, as related by fellow motorcycle outrider, Marrion L. Baker: “I talked to Jim Chaney…during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get into the car…from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped…I heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly he was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely,” 3WCH265.
3) Norman Similas: “I swung back to look at the car. A Secret Service man ran up with his gun drawn…The Secret Service man opened the car door and I saw the President slumped down to the floor…,” Source: “‘I saw president fall’ – Willowdale man,” Toronto Daily Star, (All Star Night edition), Friday, 22 November 1963, pp.1&13
4) Robert Baskin: “The motorcade ground to a halt. There was a good deal of activity round the President’s car, with Secret Service men running about,” Source: “Day Began As Auspiciously As Any in Kennedy’s Career,” The Dallas Morning News, 23 November 1963, p.2
SS men checking the presidential condition is entirely logical when you think about - we couldn't have the target reaching the hospital in a survivable condition.
PPS The Secret Service was understandably anxious to allay suspicion that its motorcade members led a pre-planned red-herring run up the knoll. So it began briefing immediately post-assassination to the effect that its knoll-runners were merely responding to the direction of others, specifically, and unsurprisingly, motorcycle policemen:
Compiled from wire reports, “John F. Kennedy Slain!,” Lima News, 22 November 1963, p.2: “Some of the Secret Service agents thought the gunfire was from an automatic weapon fired to the right rear* of the Chief Executive’s car, probably from the grassy knoll to which motorcycle policemen directed their attention as they raced up the slope.”
* The assassination took place, of course, further up Elm Street, nearer the Triple Overpass, than the second version of the Z-fake would have us believe.
In other words, it wasn't merely a bunch of "misguided" witnesses who attested to the participation of SS motorcade members in the red-herring run, but (a) briefer(s) on the organisation's behalf.
Christ, at this rate I'll end up posting more when "resigned" than when not. How ridiculous. I can only plead that the topic is too bloody interesting - and the wall of disinformation too tempting a target - to ignore.
