The OKC Bombing thread: Surveillance Camera Footage

[Richard Booth]

Richard, are there print sources that describe the DOJ/FBI investigation of OKC from top down, as in how the investigation was handled from DC, and who at Justice and FBI was put on it, and how they interacted with FBI field offices and local law enforcement?

I'm interested in the involvement of John O'Neill, FBI, deceased. Even the barest or most incomplete (or falsified) procedural accounts would be of help. Gee, somehow none of this has made it into the standard literature on OKC, even those works with a CT slant. THANKS

Good question. The investigation was handled by a number of high level FBI agents who were micro-managed by Louis Freeh. Agents involved include BOB RICKS, WELDON KENNEDY, DANNY COULSON.

There are not any books that I am aware of that talk about the investigation from the viewpoint of the FBI.

What I know about the FBI investigation comes from a large amalgamation of sources. For example, there is some talk of the investigation in Roger Charles' book 'Oklahoma City: What the Investigation Missed and Why It Still Matters'. So, you'd want to read that. Additional bits of information can be gleaned from news reports--very little of value though.

Then, you pick up some things just by reading FBI 302 reports. For example, it became clear to me that JON HERSLEY and LARRY TONGATE were mid level agents who would be brought in to browbeat witnesses. HERSLEY was a hatchet man his name would come up from time to time in 302s from witnesses who we know from news reports and books were interviewed dozens of times. For example, JEFFREY DAVIS delivered chinese food to McVeigh's motel room and he said the man was absolutely NOT Timothy McVeigh, said he had longer hair "tousled about" and a "regional accent." Davis has said in interviews he was interviewed by the FBI over 20 times and that they were essentially angry with him and just wanted him to say "darn it, it was McVeigh." So you'll pick up bits and pieces here and there from different sources where you'll learn that Davis was pressured. Then you go look at the list of 302 reports and find the name of the agents who interviewed him, and sure enough HERSLEY is there. Then there is another witness at a motel in Oklahoma who had a story that the FBI did not care for. That guy, RANDALL COLLINS, was also interviewed by HERSLEY who, according to Collins, put stuff in the 302 that was incorrect and NOT what he said. There is handful of at least six witnesses who had things done to them like they were forced to take a polygraph, they were told "you did not see that", some people were really offended by the way the FBI treated them. Davis is a good example of that. The head of the Ryder rental office, ELDON ELLIOTT also said he was pressured. CONNIE SMITH was forced to take a poly and told "you did not see that" and she was very upset about that. So you look at the 302s and see who interviewed these people and you get an idea which agents were assigned to certain witnesses.

Then there are a few quotes in the newspaper from DANNY COULSON about the investigation. Circa 2004 or so, you have COULSON saying that "some improper" things happened during the investigation and he believes that an independent prosecutor should investigate.

Then you see quotes from the FBI's defenders. That would be DANNY DEFENBAUGH who was put in charge of the investigation largely because he was viewed as someone who could be controlled by people like BEAR BRYANT or TOM PICKARD. He would be a yes-man and do whatever he was told. Info about that is in Roger Charles book.

As for John O'Neill, I know who he is and I have never once seen his name come up in the Oklahoma City bombing. He was not an agent who was involved, I don't think, because the investigation was handled by 'FOL' or 'Friends of Louis' [Freeh]. People who could be controlled by Louis Freeh and who were loyal to him.

I think that DANNY COULSON knows a lot and likely is aware of specifics when it comes to improper conduct but he has not gone on record saying what that is, specifically, only that there was improper conduct.

Coulson also goes on record regarding 'John Doe #2' in a mid 2000s BBC broadcast where he talks about how the guy exists, how 24 witnesses all saw him. That documentary then puts on-screen JON HERSLEY and his job is to poo-poo any witnesses the FBI didn't care for so he says things like "some people wanted to be on TV" and "they tried to help but they didn't see anything" -- just totally offensive things that I'm sure many of these witnesses would strongly disagree with. I don't think it's fair to characterize all witnesses who saw McVeigh with others as people who "want to be on TV" -- that was a slam and intentional insult from agent HERSLEY and it's what I've come to expect from him after having read how he muddled with COLLINS' 302, and how he re-interviewed lots of people, you get the impression he's a hatchet man for the investigation whose job is to suppress witnesses the FBI doesn't find convenient.

So your question is difficult to answer as there are not any good books to read that will answer those questions.

Another agent who has spoken about the investigation is RICARDO OJEDA. He investigated a number of leads relating to a white supremacist compound in Oklahoma called ELOHIM CITY. OJEDA has gone on record saying that his reports were buried, they were never passed on to certain investigators or the defense team.

For doing that, agent OJEDA is defamed, in one documentary you have DANNY DEFENBAUGH saying "shame on you, there's a hidden agenda" if you have anyone saying anything negative about the bureau. OJEDA also filed an affidavit in the 2004 Nichols state trial which discussed how the FBI would hide certain witness reports in what is called the 'zero file' -- a process by which reports the bureau found inconvenient would be buried in an administrative filing system. Agent OJEDA also has an interview with the defense team where he told them that the FBI assigned a pair of agents to a few different witnesses that the FBI did not want the media finding out about, people that were considered "hot" so the FBI assigned specific agents to "handle" them and ensure that the media and defense team don't find out about them.

So you can learn a few things from listening to agent OJEDA's comments on History Channel program, reading his affidavit, and reading the defense team memo that talks about FBI dispatching agents to ensure certain witnesses remain out of touch to the media.

Sorry I don't have a better answer for you or a specific place you can look for what you are looking for. In this case, you learn a few things about the FBI investigators but usually it's from little small things mentioned here and there and over time it accumulates and you get an idea how the bureau worked -- intimidating witnesses, shaming any agents who speak up, dispatching Hersley or Defenbaugh to tout the official line, etc.

The FBI's 'dissidents' in this case would be Danny Coulson and Ricardo Ojeda. Coulson isn't defamed for his comments because he has too much prestige---founded the FBI hostage rescue team and was involved in many high profile cases so he never does get defamed by other agents like they did to Ricardo Ojeda. Ojeda was trashed for speaking up. The most the FBI has said about Coulson's statements is "I didn't know Danny had said that."


--Richard