04-04-2010, 09:08 PM
JUDYTH DISCUSSES "THE HEIGHT OF THE LIBRARY" QUESTION
NOTE: Why am I not surprised that Barb would post something completely
irrelevant to distract attention from the blockbuster post I have just made
about the "missing tooth"? Even Dean Hagerman piles on with the usual
suspects, who salivate over the very prospect that Judyth might have a
lapse regarding some detail or other. That Judyth is offering substantial,
detailed information about Lee's "missing tooth"--which she obviously did
not read in any books, as Jack likes to maintain--is given short shrift with
this crowd, whose bias oozes from their every pore. What astonishes me
is not that she may occasionally have some detail wrong, but how much
she has to tell us about crucial issues that comes from no other source.
This is extraordinarily strong evidence that she is indeed "the real deal".
This post, by the way, was sent to me on March 15 independent of this.
From the extract from a thread started by Martin Shackelford back on
15 May 2008, Judyth mistakenly described the library as having five
floors when it only had three. That is the sum and substance of what
Dean Hagerman has asked, "What is she going to say to get out of this
one?" The answer appears to be that the library was under construction
at the time and she did not explore the whole structure and therefore
she made a mistake in attributing to the building the wrong number of
floors! So the answer to Dean's breathless question is, Judyth made a
trivial mistake! What I think is more relevant is why Barb Junkkarinen
held this back until we had a blockbuster about Lee's "missing tooth"?
Why should this rather minor detail about the height of a building under
construction be such a major event when the fact that John Armstrong
doesn't know the difference between the 26 supporting volumes and
THE WARREN REPORT and falsely claims that Dulles was so skillful in
managing the commission that he was able to exclude any mention of
the CIA from its index! Since the 26 volumes HAD NO INDEX but the
888-page REPORT has an index, which actually includes around TWO
DOZEN ENTRIES about the CIA, he committed an egregious blunder. It
simply astounds me that this gross blunder by Armstrong is accepted
without comment, yet the least trivial mistake is used to trash Judyth.
JUDYTH RESPONDS IN AN EMAIL DATED 15 MARCH 2010:
DEAR JIM AND LOLA: MY SHORT TERM MEMORY PROBLEMS ARE TAKEN
ADVANTAGE OF BY BARB TO 'PROVE' I AM A LIAR. BUT IF YOU CAREFULLY
INSPECT WHAT I HAVE TO SAY, I THINK YOU'LL SEE IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE
TO ACCESS BOOKS AS EASILY AS SHE WANTS IT TO LOOK.
IRONICALLY, THE BOOKS WERE ACTUALLY ON THE FIRST FLOOR---
SOMETHING BARB DID NOT BOTHER TO DO RESEARCH ON, OR SURELY SHE
WOULD HAVE NAILED ME TO A CROSS.
HOWEVER, I DID NOT KNOW IT! IT IS A VERY LARGE LIBRARY AND I WAS
PHYSICALLY LIMITED IN MY ABILITY TO GET AROUND. I HAD TO OVERCOME
A BACK OPERATON FOR A RECONSTRUCTION OF MY BACK IN THE 80S. A
FALL WOULD ALMOST CRIPPLE ME. WALKING VERY FAR WAS OUT OF THE
QUESTION. CLIMBING STAIRS WAS AGONY.
ANYWAY, I LIVE WITH IT AND AM MUCH STRONGER NOW, DUE TO MANY
EXERCISES, AND CAN WALK FOR MILES, BUT IT TOOK YEARS OF HARD WORK.
"THE 26 VOLUMES" -- THAT IS WHAT THEY WERE CALLED WHEN MENTIONED BY
SHACKELFORD AND PLATZMAN -- I FINALLY FOUND THE WARREN COMMISSION
REPORT,BUT IT WAS IN A BOX SOMEWHERE! -- THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID!
THE 26 VOLUMES ARE CALLED "THE WARREN COMMISSION HEARINGS AND
EXHIBITS" [NOTE: WHICH, OF COURSE, IS THEIR OFFICIAL NAME]. BELIEVE
IT OR NOT, THEY WERE NOT LISTED IN THE LIBRARY UNDER "26 VOLUMES"
OR [AS ASSOCIATED WITH] "THE WARREN COMMISSION REPORT".
MAYBE THEY ARE NOW, OF COURSE, BUT, AT THE TIME, THE CARD SYSTEM
WAS BEING TURNED INTO A COMPUTER SYSTEM. THEY WERE RIGHT THERE
ON THE GROUND FLOOR, AND I NEVER KNEW IT. IT TURNS OUT THAT THE
LIBRARY HAD A "U.S. ARCHIVES" SECTION I HAD ENTIRELY OVERLOOKED.
BARB MAY IMMEDIATELY DECLAR THAT I "LIED"...SIGH.. BUT IT IS TRUE
THAT I DIDN'T ACCESS THE DARNED THINGS UNTIL I WAS TOLD THEY WERE
ALSO AVAILABLE AT THE PUBLIC LIBRARY.
FROM A PAST THREAD BY MARTIN SHACKELFORD ABOUT THE LIBRARY
JUDYTH: The U of Louisiana, Lafayette Library
Martin Shackelford started a new thread titled "Judyth Baker on the Queen of
Spades" on alt.assassination.jfk, posting this snippet from a statement by
Judyth on May 15, 2008:
From: "Martin Shackelford" <mshack4@sbcglobal.net>
Newsgroups: alt.assassination.jfk
Subject: Judyth Baker on the Queen of Spades
Date: 15 May 2008 10:36:35 -0400
the gray book:
At U LA, if you didn't know the name of a book, you couldn't get it
brought down...not knowing what was up there, i could not ask for
it...the library under reconstruction and elevators not working, i was
confined to the first floor for a year....
[Louis] Girdler asked the librarian specifically for a book with "The
Queen of Spades" in it and she described it....but he's such a silly
goose, as he didn't require her to find a book written in russian...my
bad back made it impossible to climb the many stairs to the fourth or
fifth floor...impossible... but what's important is that the ONLY
Russian Pushkin they had up there with the requisite short story the
Queen of Spades--had a RED cover. I described, as you know, a gray
cover. Furthermore, the red cover was a hardback, not floppy.
Judyth has long made claims, as has Martin, that Judyth had done no
research before she came forth with her story ... Judyth noting that
she had no access as the library at the university was undergoing
remodeling/construction for a year (completed in 2000), there was no
elevator service and she couldn't get to an upper floor where any such
materials were kept because her back probs prevented her from climbing
the stairs.
The quote above is a nice short, concise one that contains her 2
claims about the library:
1. There was no elevator service for a year during the
remodel/construction, and ...
2. The library was 5 stories high.
I spoke to Sandy in the reference section of the library on June 8,
2009. She was working there at the time of the remodeling/construction
10 years ago ... before it, through it, and to this day. She told me:
1 .The library is now and was 3 stories. The remodeling doubled the
size of the library by adding an addition ... but the number of floors
stayed the same.
2. There was always at least one elevator available throughoutt the
construction/remodel which lasted well over a year. "Oh, gosh, yes"
was her reply to my question as to whether or not elevator service
remained intact during that long time. There is what she called "a
set" of elevators ... the set being two elevators side by side. At
least one was always available.
Here are links to information about the library on the university
website ... as well as the floor plan.
About the library
http://library.louisiana.edu/General/about.shtml
Floor plans
http://library.louisiana.edu/General/floor.shtml
Some details about the construction project here:
http://www.llaonline.org/fp/files/pubs/n...s_0201.pdf
Page 3:
"The library was officially
dedicated in a festive ceremony on
Friday, October 27, 2000. The
construction and renovation project
was begun in September of 1997. In the
next three year period 88,000 square feet of
new space were added to the library and 90
percent of the existing 125,000 square feet of
old space was refurbished and renovated. The
library was open to the patrons during the
entire construction period; library services were
available to the students and faculty even
during days of noise and dust.
The dedication ceremony was ..."
Barb :-)
[quote name='Barb Junkkarinen' post='188785' date='Apr 4 2010, 06:04 PM'][quote name='Pamela McElwain-Brown' post='188765' date='Apr 4 2010, 04:02 PM']With all due respect, you seem to be blindly enabling the blocking of a valid research process. Anyone who attempts to manipulate research by using personal attacks accomplishes nothing. Lifton's LHO timeline information unfortunately is tainted by his bias against Judyth. Lifton may be slinking away because he grabbed a clue about this. Barb's information is carefully cherrypicked to attempt to discredit Judyth. There are other names for this, but 'research' isn't one of them.[/quote]
And what do those who attack anyone who attempts to evaluate claims made by a witness do, Pamela? Is that a valid "research process" - especially when documented information provided is seemingly not even looked at, certainly not addressed in return, and instead just circus barker like attacks all about anyone, anything and everything, over, under and around the information that was brought out?
You've accused me of "cherrypicking" in my fact checking constantly....but when asked, you never give an example or an explanation. I recently posted regarding Judyth's claim that she had done no research before coming out with her story, and could not have done any research, because the library at the U Louisiana was under remodeling construction and for a year she had no access to where the books she would need to do such research were on the 4th or 5th floor .... as there was no elevator in service for that entire year and because of her back problems she could not do the stairs.
I posted:
Direct quotes from a named person at the library who worked there at the time of the construction, and still works there.
I posted the link to the library site that includes the story of the construction, the floor plan of the library.
And the librarian I spoke to and the info on the library site make it clear that the library is, was and always has been THREE floors ... and that at least one of their two elevators was always working during that year of construction.
Not a peep in response from Judyth or Fetzer .... or you. What exactly was "cherrypicked"?
You talk a lot, but never on the actual issues or evidence, just airily, and with no specifics, making allegations about other posters and their "process." Your process seems clear.
[/quote]
NOTE: Why am I not surprised that Barb would post something completely
irrelevant to distract attention from the blockbuster post I have just made
about the "missing tooth"? Even Dean Hagerman piles on with the usual
suspects, who salivate over the very prospect that Judyth might have a
lapse regarding some detail or other. That Judyth is offering substantial,
detailed information about Lee's "missing tooth"--which she obviously did
not read in any books, as Jack likes to maintain--is given short shrift with
this crowd, whose bias oozes from their every pore. What astonishes me
is not that she may occasionally have some detail wrong, but how much
she has to tell us about crucial issues that comes from no other source.
This is extraordinarily strong evidence that she is indeed "the real deal".
This post, by the way, was sent to me on March 15 independent of this.
From the extract from a thread started by Martin Shackelford back on
15 May 2008, Judyth mistakenly described the library as having five
floors when it only had three. That is the sum and substance of what
Dean Hagerman has asked, "What is she going to say to get out of this
one?" The answer appears to be that the library was under construction
at the time and she did not explore the whole structure and therefore
she made a mistake in attributing to the building the wrong number of
floors! So the answer to Dean's breathless question is, Judyth made a
trivial mistake! What I think is more relevant is why Barb Junkkarinen
held this back until we had a blockbuster about Lee's "missing tooth"?
Why should this rather minor detail about the height of a building under
construction be such a major event when the fact that John Armstrong
doesn't know the difference between the 26 supporting volumes and
THE WARREN REPORT and falsely claims that Dulles was so skillful in
managing the commission that he was able to exclude any mention of
the CIA from its index! Since the 26 volumes HAD NO INDEX but the
888-page REPORT has an index, which actually includes around TWO
DOZEN ENTRIES about the CIA, he committed an egregious blunder. It
simply astounds me that this gross blunder by Armstrong is accepted
without comment, yet the least trivial mistake is used to trash Judyth.
JUDYTH RESPONDS IN AN EMAIL DATED 15 MARCH 2010:
DEAR JIM AND LOLA: MY SHORT TERM MEMORY PROBLEMS ARE TAKEN
ADVANTAGE OF BY BARB TO 'PROVE' I AM A LIAR. BUT IF YOU CAREFULLY
INSPECT WHAT I HAVE TO SAY, I THINK YOU'LL SEE IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE
TO ACCESS BOOKS AS EASILY AS SHE WANTS IT TO LOOK.
IRONICALLY, THE BOOKS WERE ACTUALLY ON THE FIRST FLOOR---
SOMETHING BARB DID NOT BOTHER TO DO RESEARCH ON, OR SURELY SHE
WOULD HAVE NAILED ME TO A CROSS.
HOWEVER, I DID NOT KNOW IT! IT IS A VERY LARGE LIBRARY AND I WAS
PHYSICALLY LIMITED IN MY ABILITY TO GET AROUND. I HAD TO OVERCOME
A BACK OPERATON FOR A RECONSTRUCTION OF MY BACK IN THE 80S. A
FALL WOULD ALMOST CRIPPLE ME. WALKING VERY FAR WAS OUT OF THE
QUESTION. CLIMBING STAIRS WAS AGONY.
ANYWAY, I LIVE WITH IT AND AM MUCH STRONGER NOW, DUE TO MANY
EXERCISES, AND CAN WALK FOR MILES, BUT IT TOOK YEARS OF HARD WORK.
"THE 26 VOLUMES" -- THAT IS WHAT THEY WERE CALLED WHEN MENTIONED BY
SHACKELFORD AND PLATZMAN -- I FINALLY FOUND THE WARREN COMMISSION
REPORT,BUT IT WAS IN A BOX SOMEWHERE! -- THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID!
THE 26 VOLUMES ARE CALLED "THE WARREN COMMISSION HEARINGS AND
EXHIBITS" [NOTE: WHICH, OF COURSE, IS THEIR OFFICIAL NAME]. BELIEVE
IT OR NOT, THEY WERE NOT LISTED IN THE LIBRARY UNDER "26 VOLUMES"
OR [AS ASSOCIATED WITH] "THE WARREN COMMISSION REPORT".
MAYBE THEY ARE NOW, OF COURSE, BUT, AT THE TIME, THE CARD SYSTEM
WAS BEING TURNED INTO A COMPUTER SYSTEM. THEY WERE RIGHT THERE
ON THE GROUND FLOOR, AND I NEVER KNEW IT. IT TURNS OUT THAT THE
LIBRARY HAD A "U.S. ARCHIVES" SECTION I HAD ENTIRELY OVERLOOKED.
BARB MAY IMMEDIATELY DECLAR THAT I "LIED"...SIGH.. BUT IT IS TRUE
THAT I DIDN'T ACCESS THE DARNED THINGS UNTIL I WAS TOLD THEY WERE
ALSO AVAILABLE AT THE PUBLIC LIBRARY.
FROM A PAST THREAD BY MARTIN SHACKELFORD ABOUT THE LIBRARY
JUDYTH: The U of Louisiana, Lafayette Library
Martin Shackelford started a new thread titled "Judyth Baker on the Queen of
Spades" on alt.assassination.jfk, posting this snippet from a statement by
Judyth on May 15, 2008:
From: "Martin Shackelford" <mshack4@sbcglobal.net>
Newsgroups: alt.assassination.jfk
Subject: Judyth Baker on the Queen of Spades
Date: 15 May 2008 10:36:35 -0400
the gray book:
At U LA, if you didn't know the name of a book, you couldn't get it
brought down...not knowing what was up there, i could not ask for
it...the library under reconstruction and elevators not working, i was
confined to the first floor for a year....
[Louis] Girdler asked the librarian specifically for a book with "The
Queen of Spades" in it and she described it....but he's such a silly
goose, as he didn't require her to find a book written in russian...my
bad back made it impossible to climb the many stairs to the fourth or
fifth floor...impossible... but what's important is that the ONLY
Russian Pushkin they had up there with the requisite short story the
Queen of Spades--had a RED cover. I described, as you know, a gray
cover. Furthermore, the red cover was a hardback, not floppy.
Judyth has long made claims, as has Martin, that Judyth had done no
research before she came forth with her story ... Judyth noting that
she had no access as the library at the university was undergoing
remodeling/construction for a year (completed in 2000), there was no
elevator service and she couldn't get to an upper floor where any such
materials were kept because her back probs prevented her from climbing
the stairs.
The quote above is a nice short, concise one that contains her 2
claims about the library:
1. There was no elevator service for a year during the
remodel/construction, and ...
2. The library was 5 stories high.
I spoke to Sandy in the reference section of the library on June 8,
2009. She was working there at the time of the remodeling/construction
10 years ago ... before it, through it, and to this day. She told me:
1 .The library is now and was 3 stories. The remodeling doubled the
size of the library by adding an addition ... but the number of floors
stayed the same.
2. There was always at least one elevator available throughoutt the
construction/remodel which lasted well over a year. "Oh, gosh, yes"
was her reply to my question as to whether or not elevator service
remained intact during that long time. There is what she called "a
set" of elevators ... the set being two elevators side by side. At
least one was always available.
Here are links to information about the library on the university
website ... as well as the floor plan.
About the library
http://library.louisiana.edu/General/about.shtml
Floor plans
http://library.louisiana.edu/General/floor.shtml
Some details about the construction project here:
http://www.llaonline.org/fp/files/pubs/n...s_0201.pdf
Page 3:
"The library was officially
dedicated in a festive ceremony on
Friday, October 27, 2000. The
construction and renovation project
was begun in September of 1997. In the
next three year period 88,000 square feet of
new space were added to the library and 90
percent of the existing 125,000 square feet of
old space was refurbished and renovated. The
library was open to the patrons during the
entire construction period; library services were
available to the students and faculty even
during days of noise and dust.
The dedication ceremony was ..."
Barb :-)
[quote name='Barb Junkkarinen' post='188785' date='Apr 4 2010, 06:04 PM'][quote name='Pamela McElwain-Brown' post='188765' date='Apr 4 2010, 04:02 PM']With all due respect, you seem to be blindly enabling the blocking of a valid research process. Anyone who attempts to manipulate research by using personal attacks accomplishes nothing. Lifton's LHO timeline information unfortunately is tainted by his bias against Judyth. Lifton may be slinking away because he grabbed a clue about this. Barb's information is carefully cherrypicked to attempt to discredit Judyth. There are other names for this, but 'research' isn't one of them.[/quote]
And what do those who attack anyone who attempts to evaluate claims made by a witness do, Pamela? Is that a valid "research process" - especially when documented information provided is seemingly not even looked at, certainly not addressed in return, and instead just circus barker like attacks all about anyone, anything and everything, over, under and around the information that was brought out?
You've accused me of "cherrypicking" in my fact checking constantly....but when asked, you never give an example or an explanation. I recently posted regarding Judyth's claim that she had done no research before coming out with her story, and could not have done any research, because the library at the U Louisiana was under remodeling construction and for a year she had no access to where the books she would need to do such research were on the 4th or 5th floor .... as there was no elevator in service for that entire year and because of her back problems she could not do the stairs.
I posted:
Direct quotes from a named person at the library who worked there at the time of the construction, and still works there.
I posted the link to the library site that includes the story of the construction, the floor plan of the library.
And the librarian I spoke to and the info on the library site make it clear that the library is, was and always has been THREE floors ... and that at least one of their two elevators was always working during that year of construction.
Not a peep in response from Judyth or Fetzer .... or you. What exactly was "cherrypicked"?
You talk a lot, but never on the actual issues or evidence, just airily, and with no specifics, making allegations about other posters and their "process." Your process seems clear.
[/quote]