18-05-2010, 04:27 PM
Helen, you are very clearly far more knowledgeable about Lovecraft - and clearly have a strong feeling tone for him - than me. In fact I regard myself as a rank amateur-cum-dunce in this respect, compared to you.
I do have some insights and practical experience when it comes to dreams and speaking personally, I sincerely doubt this was the major source of his knowledge. Rather I have the impression that this was a useful device to cloak other developed abilities. Which is why it seems far more likely to me that he was able to access those timeless places in an ultra deep state of meditation, where his consciousness remained acute - his body virtually dormant - and with well practiced memory skills, he could have later written concise diary notes of his experiences and sensations - a so called "magical diary" (not something that would ever be made publicly available).
It is my sense that in order to achieve these abilities one needs to have been taught. Some people do have a natural facility for it - I have known some who fall right in so to speak, but that natural ability still needs to be harnessed and focused by someone experienced in that field. This normally (and certainly in those days I would think) would almost certainly have derived from an occult lodge or order - and unlike the Golden Dawn and Crowleyian O.T.O etc., most of these do not publicize their membership, nor do their members publicize their affiliation to such.
In the last analysis however, all this is a feeling tone, or gut instinct, that I have about this and is certainly not the result of scholarly research.
Meanwhile, this is what Parker Ryan states about his research efforts (page 10):
Which is the principal reason I was impressed with his conclusion that Lovecraft had access to a very rare treatise on Arab magical traditions - and if this was so, then probably he also had direct access to a teacher or lodge. It would be typical for an occult lodge to have its own library, some of which may have been very rare tombs indeed.
One such group who had great insights into Arabic magical techniques were, as you know, the Knights Templar - who went underground just over 700 years ago and arose again just prior to when the current Pope took office and forgave them declaring they were innocent of the charges brought against them (they had earlier issued a threat due to be enacted on their 700th anniversary if this absolution didn't take place - although no one knows outside of themselves and the Vatican what this threat represented).
And so I suspect we must probably agree to disagree on how Lovecraft may have come about his apparent knowledge. I doubt either of us will ever know one way or the other for certain. But it is really good that different perspectives are, and continue to be, explored as has happened in this thread. Such exchanges force deeper pondering etc., which is beneficial. Meanwhile, I never cease to be impressed by your broad knowledge on these more than obscure subjects - which are right up my street too. Bravo!
David
I do have some insights and practical experience when it comes to dreams and speaking personally, I sincerely doubt this was the major source of his knowledge. Rather I have the impression that this was a useful device to cloak other developed abilities. Which is why it seems far more likely to me that he was able to access those timeless places in an ultra deep state of meditation, where his consciousness remained acute - his body virtually dormant - and with well practiced memory skills, he could have later written concise diary notes of his experiences and sensations - a so called "magical diary" (not something that would ever be made publicly available).
It is my sense that in order to achieve these abilities one needs to have been taught. Some people do have a natural facility for it - I have known some who fall right in so to speak, but that natural ability still needs to be harnessed and focused by someone experienced in that field. This normally (and certainly in those days I would think) would almost certainly have derived from an occult lodge or order - and unlike the Golden Dawn and Crowleyian O.T.O etc., most of these do not publicize their membership, nor do their members publicize their affiliation to such.
In the last analysis however, all this is a feeling tone, or gut instinct, that I have about this and is certainly not the result of scholarly research.
Meanwhile, this is what Parker Ryan states about his research efforts (page 10):
Quote:I've been researching Arab magick (and it connection to Lovecraft) for nearly 10 years so I won't be able to list every source I've used. However I should be able to give resource in which people interested can verify ALL the claims I make.
Which is the principal reason I was impressed with his conclusion that Lovecraft had access to a very rare treatise on Arab magical traditions - and if this was so, then probably he also had direct access to a teacher or lodge. It would be typical for an occult lodge to have its own library, some of which may have been very rare tombs indeed.
One such group who had great insights into Arabic magical techniques were, as you know, the Knights Templar - who went underground just over 700 years ago and arose again just prior to when the current Pope took office and forgave them declaring they were innocent of the charges brought against them (they had earlier issued a threat due to be enacted on their 700th anniversary if this absolution didn't take place - although no one knows outside of themselves and the Vatican what this threat represented).
And so I suspect we must probably agree to disagree on how Lovecraft may have come about his apparent knowledge. I doubt either of us will ever know one way or the other for certain. But it is really good that different perspectives are, and continue to be, explored as has happened in this thread. Such exchanges force deeper pondering etc., which is beneficial. Meanwhile, I never cease to be impressed by your broad knowledge on these more than obscure subjects - which are right up my street too. Bravo!
David
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge.
Carl Jung - Aion (1951). CW 9, Part II: P.14