Another mass shooting at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin....details fuzzy

[Peter Lemkin]

AMY GOODMAN: While many people were shocked by Sunday's massacre at the Sikh temple in Wisconsin, our next guest warned years ago about the resurgence of right-wing violence. Daryl Johnson, former analyst for the Department of Homeland Security, called attention to the threat of far right extremist groups back in 2009 and sparked a political firestorm in the process. He was the principal author of a report called, "Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment." The report noted that the election of the first African-American president, combined with recession-year economic anxieties, could fuel a rise in far-right violence. It went on to say right wing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to boost their violent capabilities. Johnson drew his conclusion on his 15 years of experience studying domestic terrorist groups particularly white supremacists and Neo-Nazis. The report set off a maelstrom of discontent among conservatives. The media watch group, Media Matters, produced a video featuring the numerous TV personalities who slammed the report, including CNN's Lou Dobbs, conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh, Fox New's Sean Hannity, Fox News national political commentator Andrea Tantaros and Fox News contributor Michelle Malkin. This is a clip:

COMMENTATOR: A new report from Homeland Security suggests the bad economy may drive people to right-wing extremist groups.

COMMENTATOR: Right-wing extremists groups, Neo-Nazis, skinheads, The National Alliance, racist groups, anti-Semitic groups.

COMMENTATOR: Gathering information on right-wing extremist activity in the United States. Does that mean they are going to be sending spies to these Tea Parties?

COMMENTATOR: There are no Timothy McVeighs out there right now.

MICHELE MALKIN: If they are going to issue these reports for this made-up threat.

RUSH LIMBAUGH: Portraying standard, ordinary, everyday conservatives as posing a bigger threat to this country than Al Qaeda terrorists, naming veteran's groups as possible extremist groups.

AMY GOODMAN: Under intense pressure from the talk show hosts and from Republican lawmakers, the Department of Homeland Security ultimately repudiated Daryl Johnson's paper and in June 2009, the Washington Post reported the DHS cut the number of personnel studying domestic terrorism unrelated to Islam and canceled numerous state and local law enforcement briefings. The DHS reportedly also held up dissemination of nearly a dozen reports on extremist groups. For more, we go to Washington, DC, where we are joined by Daryl Johnson, the former Department of Homeland Security Senior Analyst who has written the book, "Right Wing Resurgence: How a Domestic Terrorist Threat is Being Ignored." It will be published next month. Now owns and founded DT Analytics, a privacy consultancy firm.

DARYL JOHNSON: Daryl Johnson, welcome to Democracy Now! So tell us what happened, what you were finding, what this report was and what happened to it.

DARYL JOHNSON: Well, thank you, Amy, for having me on your show. Basically, the genesis of the report started as early as January 2007 when I received a phone call from the U.S. Capitol Police saying that a young senator from Illinois, who is African-American, was considering running for president. They basically wanted to know if we had seen any extremist chatter that was threatening in nature towards Barack Obama. We did a quick search of the internet sites. We did not find any threats, and so we pretty much closed that request out. But, in the ensuing months, I sat down with my analysts and we postulated, "What if an African-American senator got elected to be president. What would that do to extremism here in the United States?" So, we basically put this question out, we brainstormed it, and came to the conclusion that it would be a recruitment boon for these groups. Coupled with the ailing economy that we are experiencing, a lot of people on unemployment would basically be ripe for recruitment by these types of groups.

AMY GOODMAN: And you were working in the Department of Homeland Security under, at the time, under President Bush. Is that right?

DARYL JOHNSON: Yes, I arrived there in August of 2004.

AMY GOODMAN: And so you write up this report and talk about your key findings were and then the response to it.

DARYL JOHNSON: Well, basically we put together over a period of over a year, collected a massive amount of data that actually filled an entire box of open source information we had gathered off the internet, law enforcement information, FBI information that had come in; and we started drafting a report and right around the time Janet Napolitano was sworn in as the new Secretary of Homeland Security we started receiving questions from Secretary Napolitano and she wanted to know what was an extremist, what are they doing, what groups were out there that we were concerned about. We answered those questions and then she came back with more questions. She wanted to know if we were seeing a rise in right wing extremism and whether it was a result of the election of an African-American president and what we are going to do about it. And so, basically, through this questioning period we decided that, not only was the paper that was originally designed to be sent to law enforcement, could also serve as an answer to the secretary's questions.

AMY GOODMAN: What were the critical findings?

DARYL JOHNSON: Basically, that we were seeing a resurgence. We had experienced very early on, right after the election, we saw arson activity at black churches, we had a bombing out in the Pacific northwest where some police officers were killed that were carried out by anti-government extremists. We had a neo-Nazi up in Massachusetts that went on a shooting spree, and we saw a lot of extremist chatter talking about how they were fearful of an African-American president and possible gun confiscations, gun bans and the immigration issue was still being unresolved. So all these things kind of came together into the perfect storm which we saw very clearly and put out very clearly what our findings were.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you find about white supremacy in the military?

DARYL JOHNSON: Well, it's interesting that you ask that question. I actually was a counter terrorism analyst in the US Army from 1991 to 1999, so I was in working for the Army as a counter terrorism analyst at the time that this gentleman up in Wisconsin was enlisted. I actually have an entire chapter in my book devoted on my observations on extremism activity in the military, but just basically, briefly, the one thing that I found is that this is a very small percentage; but since we have such a large military, that small percentage could actually equal hundreds if not a few thousand people. It only takes one person like Timothy McVeigh, with the skills that he learned in the military and the mindset and training he received, to carry out a massive bombing or to kill people.

AMY GOODMAN: And explain for people who don't remember, I'm sure everyone knows the reference to April 19, 1995, and the bombing of the Oklahoma City building that killed more than 168 people and critically wounded and wounded hundreds of others, what McVeigh's ties were to white supremacy, having also just come out of the military.

DARYL JOHNSON: I don't know if Timothy McVeigh necessarily had white supremacist beliefs, but he definitely had anti-government beliefs and what I think the FBI's investigation determined was that he affiliated with the militia extremists up in Michigan and other places. He went around the country talking to these individuals, but he was never a full fledged member, never joined a militia extremist group and never really participated in their paramilitary training activities. But he subscribed to their belief system.

AMY GOODMAN: Back in 2009 a handful of Republicans in the House called for Janet Napolitano to step down as head of the Department of Homeland Security in the wake of your memo that warned of right-wing political extremism in the United States. House Majority Leader, John Boehner, said the report focused on "[A]bout two-thirds of Americans who might go to church, who may have served in the military, who may be involved in community activities... I just don't understand how our government can look at the American people and say, 'You're all potential terrorist threats.'" Those were Boehner's comments. Daryl Johnson, your response.

DARYL JOHNSON: That is a gross misrepresentation of what was said in the report. Basically, I think what Boehner is alluding to is a very broad, vague definition that was in the footnote of one of the pages. Basically, the definition was written very broadly so it could encompass the wide range of extremist groups we were talking about which were primarily the white supremacist movement which has neo-Nazi groups, Ku Klux Klan groups, Christian Identity groups which is a racist religion that thinks whites are the true Israelites. We have skinhead groups. We have other types of white supremacists. It also was alluding to sovereign citizens, those that reject federal and state authority in favor of local authority. It was also talking about the militia extremists. So, basically, some of the conservative radio talk show hosts took this definition out of context, and without the scope of talking about violent extremism and terrorism which was stated upfront in the scope note, and took this definition out of context and applied it to a broad range of people. I think it was done deliberately as a political maneuver to use against the new administration.

AMY GOODMAN: How did your report get picked up? How did it get disseminated in the media? What was the trajectory it took?

DARYL JOHNSON: Well, basically an anonymous person sent the report out. Obviously they didn't agree with its findings, and sent it out to Roger Hedgecock out in southern California who is kind of a conservative radio shock jock who really banters the immigration issue a lot. He is credited with disclosing publicly this report which was not meant for public distribution.

AMY GOODMAN: And so what happened to you, Daryl Johnson, and your unit within the Department of Homeland Security that was looking at domestic terror threats and particularly at white supremacy and neo-Nazi groups?

DARYL JOHNSON: What happened was quite shocking actually. I never anticipated that the Department of Homeland Security, my employer, would actually clamp down on the unit and stop all of the valuable work we were doing. Leading up to this report, and I will talk about this at length in my book, my team was doing a lot of good things throughout the country. We received numerous accolades from law enforcement, intelligence officials, talking about the great work we were doing in the fight against domestic terrorism. Then in lieu of the political backlash, the department decided to not only stop all of our work, stop all of the training and briefings that we were scheduled to give; but they also disbanded the unit, reassigned us to other areas within the office and then made life increasingly difficult for us. Not only did they stop the work that we were doing, but they also tried to blame us for some of the attacks that were occurring.

AMY GOODMAN: And so you lost your job.

DARYL JOHNSON: I didn't lose my job. They just made it a very difficult environment for me to continue working there so I, on my own recognizance, sought employment elsewhere and started my own consulting company.

AMY GOODMAN: I'm looking at a quick piece from Wired which says, "Since Johnson released his ill-fated report, the Witchita, Kansas, abortion doctor, George Teller, was assinated. A security guard was killed when a gunman with neo-Nazi ties went on a shooting spree at the U.S. Holocaust Museum, the FBI arrested members of a Florida neo-Nazi outfit tied to drug dealing and motorcycle gangs, a man was charged with attempting to detonate a weapon of mass destruction at a Spokane, Washington, march commemorating Dr. Martin Luther King's birthday and several mosques around the country have been vandalized or attacked, including a Missouri mosque that burned to the ground on Monday, which had been attacked before. Were you surprised by the attack on the Sikh temple and all that has taken place since?

DARYL JOHNSON: Unfortunately, Amy, I was not shocked. In fact, I was sitting in my living room with my wife and immediately when I saw the news coverage, I turned to her and said that this was likely a hate motivated crime against Sikhs perpetrated by a white supremacist who may have had military background.

AMY GOODMAN: It is interesting also that President Obama spoke yesterday in Denver with Sandra Fluke who introduced him, the Georgetown University law student who was speaking out for contraception and was targeted by Rush Limbaugh and others, and was talking about women's health and women's rights in this country. The neo-Nazi movement, along with the anti-choice movement, do you see links? I'm talking about the extremist wing.

DARYL JOHNSON: There's definitely links between white supremacists and the anti-abortion issue. That is one of the causes that they rally around and use as a recruitment tool to bring people into the movement. I wouldn't necessarily say it is strictly neo-Nazi. It could be, also, the Christian Identity Movement, it could be skinheads, it could the Ku Klux Klan.
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AMY GOODMAN: We are talking about the killings of the Sikh Temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Our guest is Pete Simi. He is a University of Nebraska at Omaha criminology professor, co-author with Robert Futrell of the book, "American Swastika: Inside the White Power Movement's Hidden Spaces of [Hate]," Joining us from Omaha, Nebraska. We're also joined by journalist Matt Kennard, author of the forthcoming book, "Irregular Army: How the U.S. Military Recruited neo-Nazis, Gang Members, and Criminals to Fight the War on Terror." Matt is joining us from Mexico City. Matt, you have been following white supremacists in the military for some time. Can you talk about the reaction to the killings in Wisconsin, and the more you hear about the profile of Wade Michael Page?

MATT KENNARD: Well, the interesting thing about Page is, you quoted that "Stars and Stripes" article which said he was completely open about his white supremacist and neo-Nazi inclinations in the 1990's. It's important to remember that during the 1990s, this was a period after the Burmeister trauma which you mentioned, and also the bombings in Oklahoma which were carried out by Timothy McVeigh, another veteran of the First Gulf War, who was decorated with a bronze star as well. So, military in the mid-1990s was embarrassed by the fact these first the active-duty veteran had committed murder; indiscriminate murder. The narrative is that they were cracking down at this point. Now, Page's example shows this was not really the case. What is [Unintelligible] is that during the War on Terror, even the thin regulations that did exist were completely jettisoned. I spent two or three years talking to veterans, extremist veterans, much like page, and far right leaders, who basically said that there was an open-door policy during the war on terror. You could enter with swastikas tattooed on you, with S.S. boats, with, basically, basically the military couldn't slow down because the had two occupations to populate and not enough soldiers.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to ask you about the military's regulation of enlisted neo-Nazis and white supremacists. You write about how the Army Command Policy describes the rules for commanders to enforce. It says, "Participations in extremist organizations and activities by Army personnel is inconsistent with the responsibilities of military service." Matt Kennard, can you talk about the Army's regulations?

MATT KENNARD: Well, the Army's regulations, and in fact the military the whole military, every branch has been ambiguous on purpose, so that at times of chronic troop needs, like the War on Terror, they can basically allow these people to stay in. The regulations are basically reactive. The U.S. military, after a tragedy like in Oak Creek or the Burmeister case, they are embarrassed by the media reaction and the public who basically ask, why is our taxpayers paying to arm and train these right-wing extremists? So, the Army is on the back foot, and then they say, we have tightened the regulation. But, in reality, there is nothing proactive about it. Even the regulations that are in place, which obviously are thin, were basically completely jettisoned during the War on Terror. The quote you used about right-wing extremism being inconsistent with military service I mean, it was completely consistent with military service during the War on Terror. In fact, I heard from extremist veterans themselves that their command would send them on the hardest missions because, obviously, neo-Nazis, and gang members as well which was a big problem, which is worth mentioning as well that they are seen more as war-like.

AMY GOODMAN: Talk more about this. White supremacists in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, and, unfortunately, as we have seen this past weekend, next to a Sikh temple.

MATT KENNARD: Well, that is a good point that hasn't been raised enough. What did it what did it mean for the occupied populations to have this army that was riven with white supremacists who saw the people they were occupying as subhuman, as well as violent gang members? Gangs is also a massive problem which we don't hear about as much about, because often the violence committed in the United States is inter-gang violence so it doesn't affect the public. There have been spates of murders between gangs involving veterans and active duty personnel. But, for the populations in Iraq and Afghanistan, we will never know what kind of atrocities were carried out Wisconsin-style. But, I'm sure they happened. I mean, there's a few clues as to what these soldiers were doing over there. One neo-Nazi veteran, called Kenneth Eastridge, is now serving a 10-year sentence for his part in a murder in Colorado Springs, and he was serving in Iraq with neo-Nazi S.S. boats tattooed on his arm.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to go to a brief clip of Wade Michael Page's stepmother, Laura page. She spoke to ABC News about how the military influenced her stepson.

LAURA PAGE: I don't know if the military was good for him. I don't know. My heart is broken for the people that were killed and their families. I can't imagine what would have gone through his mind for him to do something like this.

AMY GOODMAN: That's Laura Page, the stepmother of Wade Michael Page. Professor Simi, I wanted to bring you back into this discussion as to listen to Matt Kennard. Tattoos the reports from the Sikhs on the ground in Oak Creek at the temple say he was wearing a 9/11 tattoo. What about his tattoos and what were the messages in them?

PETE SIMI: On his left shoulder he had a tattoo that has the Number 14. That is a very prominent kind of code for what is called The 14 Words, which was penned by the, now deceased, right-wing terrorist by the name of David Lane who was active in the 1980's was part of a underground terrorist cell called The Silent Brotherhood. Lane penned this while in prison, The 14 Words, which is something to the effect of, securing the existence of our race and the future for white children. This is widely used throughout the movement. These people have had tattoos with 14, t-shirts with 14, they'll sign emails with 14. So, this was one of Page's tattoos. He had a German soldier tattoo on one of his calves and a Celtic cross, which is also a prominent symbol used by white supremacists as a tattoo as well as an insignia on other things; t-shirts and so forth. The more recent photos that I have seen of him, he was more heavily tattooed than during the years that I knew him. He was starting to get tattooed and he had several during the that years I knew him. But, this is a very common thing that, as a person develops a so-called resume in the movement, they mark their body with this. It's a way of showing their commitment. So, they tend to get more and more tattoos the longer your involved in these types of groups, to the point where some individuals are actually, what's called, sleeved, which is they have tattoos all the way down to their wrists. And in some, little bit more unusual cases, people will even get tattoos all over their faces, all over their heads as a way to show how committed they are to the white supremacy movement.

AMY GOODMAN: The man you're talking about, the neo-Nazi who wrote the 14 words, David Lane, together with Bruce Pierce, were convicted for their involvement in the killing of the Jewish talk show host Alan Berg.

PETE SIMI: Correct. That is a good example of the type of terrorism that has occurred among the white supremacy movement. All too often, when we think about terrorism, we don't necessarily associate it with right-wing extremists, especially since 9/11. Unfortunately, terrorism has almost become synonymous with violent, radical jihadis, and too often people ignored the incidents of terrorism that have occurred at the hands of white supremacists.

AMY GOODMAN: Matt Kennard, as you listen to Professor Simi who knew Page, the shooter, who then killed himself, according to authorities, on Sunday now, by the way, there is concern that the police officer who shot Page, though apparently didn't kill him, will be targeted by white supremacist groups, and there's questions, will he have to move out of town. His house is begin protected by police. But, Matt Kennard, as you listen to this and also listen to his stepmother talking about her concern about his time in the military, and also the fact that he was in, though not clear doing what, in Psy-Ops, in Psychological Operations at Fort Bragg and before that at Fort Bliss, your thoughts?

MATT KENNARD: I am sorry, I didn't hear the question.

AMY GOODMAN: The question of Page's involvement in Psychological Operations, if this is the case; these are the reports, at both Fort Bliss and then at Fort Bragg. And, Matt, is Fort Bragg a center of this white supremacist activity in the military?

MATT KENNARD: Yes, I mean, Fort Bragg was where Burmeister was based, it's where Page was based.

AMY GOODMAN: And again, Burmeister who killed the black couple in 1995.

MATT KENNARD: I mean, this is across the United States. Every base has its problem with white supremacists because they are allowed to operate freely. It's the natural reaction to a military brass which is just not concerned about this issue unless they're presented with a national scandal like the Oak Creek massacre. And, I mean, Page is not alone, this is what must be emphasized. During my investigations, I went down to Tampa, Florida, to interview a neo-Nazi veteran of Iraq, Forrest Fogarty. And his resume reads basically exactly the same as Page. He's the lead singer of a neo-Nazi rock band, he's a veteran, he's also a member of the Hammerskin Nation, which is the most violent skinhead group in the country, much like Page. And what he told me about his experience in Iraq was instructive. He said, basically, the command knew about my radicalism. Of course they knew, they can see my tattoos. Fogarty was also is also covered in tattoos. So, this is not a problem that's specific to certain bases, although Fort Bragg has a very serious problem. It's all over the United States. It was all over Iraq and it was all over Afghanistan.

A point that must be made, too, is gangs is another huge issue, especially at the bases along the border with Mexico, because they're involved in trafficking drugs, trafficking weapons, etc. And this is an issue, as well, which has got wide coverage. The Southern Poverty Law Center did important work in 2006 on this. Other groups have been doing it, active duty personnel. But, every time this issue has been raised, the U.S. military has targeted the person raising it. So, soldiers who have said, Look, my unit is riven with white supremacists or gang members, the military has demoted them, has kicked them out of the military. I mean I came across countless examples of that. So this is not something that the military missed by accident. This is something that the military has actively ignored and persecuted the people that are raising the issue. In fact, later on, I think you're going to have Daryl Johnson on who is the DHS analyst who authored the report about the threat of far right-wing extremism. He was targeted by the DHS as soon as that report came out and right-wing politicians for raising the issue.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to ask about the role of music before we go to Daryl Johnson. Very important to hear about the report, not just people in the military, but people in civilian life at the Department of Homeland Security who are prevented from getting this information out. But, I want to go to a clip of the former neo-Nazi Frank Meeink, speaking on Hardball with Chris Matthews, Tuesday, about the importance of music in the neo-Nazi movement.

FRANK MEEINK: Driving in a car with a bunch of skinheads, listening to music about kicking peoples heads in, finding people of other races to destroy, and you're sitting in a car with a bunch of your friends looking for victims. It really keeps the drum beating; it's time for action.

CHRIS MATTHEWS: So you think that music drives bad behavior, racist behavior, physically?

FRANK MEEINK: It physically helped us, and, also, the racist music is what keeps the movement young. If it wasn't for the music that keeps getting people into this, you know, you would have the old image of the Klan sitting on the porch with a shotgun. The music keeps the newcomers involved, it keeps them wanting to be part of this, it keeps them, again, wanting to portray what is going on in the music. The music is I can't express how much the music is to that movement.

AMY GOODMAN: That's Frank Meeink, a former neo-Nazi, speaking on Hardball with Chris Matthews. Professor Pete Simi, your response, how important was this music world to Wade Page?

PETE SIMI: At the time I knew him, as I mentioned before, that is why he relocated to Southern California. What he told me was that he met members of the first band that he was in, Young Land, at a music show in, it would have been around the summer of 2000 in Georgia, at one of these white power music events, and they really clicked, and that's what led him to relocate to Southern California and then ultimately become a member of their band. And what he told me was that changed his life. He said that once I met them, it changed my life. I instantly had a bunch of new bros, meaning, you know, brothers. And so, at the time I had met him, he felt like his involvement in the music scene really gave him a lot of purpose in terms of how he could be involved and how he could contribute to the larger white supremacist movement. And in fact, that's what the music scene does for a lot of folks. It provides a way for them to be involved in a larger movement, whether it's as musicians or as people who really enjoy the music and like going to the shows and can tap in to the movement through their involvement in the music scene. It's a powerful mechanism for, as Frank says, for really keeping the movement going.

AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Professor Simi, could you have seen anything like this, or predicted any kind of violent outburst like this? Were you concerned about this as you spoke to Wade Michael Page? Now they have arrested [his] girlfriend, who it turns out was a waitress in a restaurant, and a coffee shop, what, a block from the Sikh temple where Page gunned down six people, six Sikh worshippers.

PETE SIMI: Well, on one hand, it's not surprising when somebody involved in these types of groups does something in terms of what happened in Wisconsin, so we shouldn't really be surprised when somebody who is involved in these types of groups, with these types of beliefs, with the things that are advocated, with the centrality of guns and just violence more broadly, in terms of the role it plays in this movement, based on their beliefs, you know, in terms of just the very fact they believe that the white race is on the verge of extinction, and therefore whites have a right or, in fact, whites really should stand up and defend themselves.

So, that part is not surprising. But, it was, when I realized that it was Page, I was shocked. It's not something that at the time I was spending with him that I saw him as particularly threatening above and beyond other, you know, members of these types of groups. As a rule of thumb, you would think that members of these types of groups in general pose a certain level of threat. And I didn't see him as especially threatening, more so than other individuals involved in these types of groups.