Michael Piper and Final Judgment

[David Josephs]

Well Albert... I am trying to say that the Echevarria quote had to do with Anti-Castro Cuba's NEW BACKERS... not JFK's assassination.

And of course if ther was involvement it would have been before 11/21... but NEW BACKERS as of that day equated to Israel, to me, is a stretch that requires a bit more citing of evidence.

I'm not sure if you've read Final Judgment? Piper does a good job of showing how those two interests, Castro and Dallas, were practically indistinguishable according to the needs of the cabal. As I already wrote, those who assassinated Kennedy were taking care of the wants of different groups like the Israelis and the Cubans. However if you read Piper you'll see their interests were merged through the Mediterranean underground Swiss bank dirty money laundry network that directly benefited all involved as one mutual cause.

With all due respect your entry reads like an attempt to ignore all this and seek a separation between those interests that Piper has already disproven. There's a reason the exiles were so involved in the assassination and it isn't because those actions were mutually exclusive. Again, if you read Final Judgment you'll find the evidence you call for explained in extensive detail. Also, if you read these posts, you still haven't explained what exactly Echevarria meant by that? Like I said before, there's no doubt Echevarria was referring to a new group of backers other than the previous group. Well, the previous group was everyone we already know, like JMWAVE, the Banister group, the Sturgis Miami group, Ruby, Interpen, etc.. So why would Echevarria be referring to this new group specifically as "Jews"? And who then does that make them? What Piper does a good job of showing is how this Lansky-led jewish syndicate treasurer group was, to a man, zealously pro-zionist. He also shows how this loyalty was bound in concrete through the Mediterranean underground and Swiss money laundry banks. I bet some who have been getting away with dismissing all this as "anti-semitism" are itching to accuse me of that, however, as is apparent from their silence, Piper's evidence wins-out over those accusations because it is based in provable fact. Sorry, David, but I think it's obvious you're asking for evidence beyond the obvious and the only way you can float your position is if you ignore the death struggle Ben Gurion had with Kennedy over nuclear weapons and the timeliness of Echevarria's comment. Not being able to describe who those "new jew backers" were is, to me, like saying "I need you to prove the spark was responsible for the explosion." The onus is clearly backwards here, in my opinion. I also think the Liberty was directly related to the free feeling this cabal had over what they had gotten away with with Kennedy. Something, no matter how some try to assign it to rogues, was inevitably protected by their host bureaucracies.

Did the Mossad, Mafia, CIA, SS, FBI, MIC, ONI, etc, etc... kill JFK? No
Did MEMBERS of these organizations get manipulated into a position to cooperate or else...and manipulate others to do the same?

To me, that's a big yes.

My problem with this is that you just admitted Mossad probably did have some involvement. (Angleton was directly involved in the formation of Mossad through the OSS) If you mention the involvement of any of those other groups you'll have no problem. However if you mention the involvement of Mossad you'll be crushed and vilified as a vile anti-semite. Even by conspiracy exposers. Perhaps Piper ignored the greater evidence to flirt with the suggestion Ben Gurion was the Sponsor and initiator. He's wrong on that because a total analysis of the entire conspiracy shows it predates Ben Gurion's problem and originates from US-oriented groups and interests. However he's dead-on in showing the network that Israel was tied to as facilitators. Something no serious, objective Assassination researcher has the right to ignore or dismiss as "anti-semitism".

Who were the 'Jews' Echevarria was referring to? And what was their agenda? Honestly David, which cause would "new backer jews" be more likely to get behind, Cuba or Dimona? And do you understand that the network Piper elaborates shows that support of Cuba was indeed support of Dimona through that network?


Unfortunately Piper's evidence makes frightening sense. There's another consideration that probably drove Ben Gurion to the breaking point. If his consent in Kennedy's assassination was exposed it might threaten the future existence of his nation. If somehow the fact Ben Gurion, or zionist covert interests, participated in Kennedy's assassination got out and was known by the American public it could possibly cause fatal political damage to Israel. That was something Ben Gurion had to weigh. The only way he would give approval to 'new jew backers' would be if CIA gave a guarantee that this information would never the see the light of day in the US media. And, once again, low and behold, what do we see post-assassination? We see an unprecedented Operation Mockingbird censoring and corruption of the US media directly oriented to this interest. Again, David, forgive me if I groan slightly when you so sincerely call for evidence...

Fair enough Albert... but so far you've cited ONE author... one. And I've read, from people I respect, how Piper's book may or may not be definitive... but to be fair, I have not read it or am familiar with it... yet I have read reviews and analysis of it... what are your thoughts of these first sentences of a review?

"There seems to be a lot of misperception of what Final Judgment does and does not say about the JFK assassination. The book does not say that "the Jews killed JFK." That's horse manure. What the book does say is that: When New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison charged businessman Clay Shaw with participation in the JFK assassination conspiracy Garrison stumbled upon the Israeli Mossad connection to the murder of President Kennedy. Shaw served on the board of a shadowy corporation known as Permindex. A primary shareholder in Permindex was the Banque De Credit International of Geneva, founded by Tibor Rosenbaum, an arms procurer and financier for the Mossad."

What's more, the book is not--I repeat--not "anti-Semitic" and the book has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the Holocaust. In fact, anybody familiar with any of the standard writings on the JFK assassination will recognize the names of some of the key players in the scenario Piper documents: Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Guy Banister and James J. Angleton of the CIA--and none of them were Jewish. So where this reviewer gets off saying that Piper finds "a Jew under every rock" is beyond me. I have read literally hundreds of books and magazine articles and other material on the JFK assassination and not in a single one of them--with the exception of Final Judgment--did I ever learn that President John F. Kennedy was trying to stop Israel from building the nuclear bomb and that this literally touched off a "secret war" behind the scenes between JFK and Israel's prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, who resigned (among other reasons) in disgust over JFK's policies with Israel. In fact, Israeli historian Avner Cohen in his book, Israel and the Bomb, documents this quite thoroughly.

Th[B]anks... and while I will get into the Piper book as soon as I can to better understand, I wonder if we can't get a more definitive take on it from the members here???[/B]


I also know that I can quote you from multiple books how it was the Mafia, The CFR/Int'l Bankers, CIA rogues, KGB Double agents, now the Mossad/CIA, Cubans, Programmed Phillipinos, and on and on and on...

I am more than willing to agree with you that MEMBERS of these groups could have been involved together... no doubt...
I also have to realize that there are many more than any one single reason for WANTING JFK DEAD among these groups....
- i.e. Did the Mafia want JFK dead so they could get back to Cuba? get Robert off their backs? just plain revenge and evil?
Did the Bankers want him dead due to his order to print money? his desire to cut off the endless flow of military spending and government borrowing?
Did LBJ just want to be president with the help of Mac Wallace?

that these groups BENEFITTED from the outcome, and/or simply took advantage of the outcome is not great mystery. But Organizations do not accomplish these things.. people do... the "JEWS" were not any more involved as was the "CIA" yet Jewish people representing the interests of Israel (among other things), and CIA men representing THEIR interests in a struggle against the new policies of the POTUS were most definitely involved... and it branches from there. You wouldn't say the people of MONTREAL were involved just cause people from Montreal are in the conspirators list...

I have no problem agreeing that those involved had many, many connections and they included forwarding the war/weapon related interests of Israel as we are their primary source for just about everything... good for business.
Bu that connection exists with or without Echevarria's statement.

Maybe help me understand how his comment on 11/21 leads specifically back to the Mossad involved in the assassination -= especially the NEW part.
Please start by explaining the weapons list in the Echevarria report (below) and how that relates to JFK's assassination as opposed to invading Cuba... and how these weapons were not discussed until well after the assassination?

I remind you I am NOT challenging Piper... just your contention that Echevarria's statement has to do with Cuba and NOT JFK....

thanks
DJ