Michael Piper and Final Judgment

[David Josephs]

Just a few quick notes

I also found the actual memos/correspondence between all the parties from the time period - one would have thought that more of these documents - which detail in the words of those attending - would have made it to the book... http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...fktoc.html

So you found the actual memos/correspondence between ALL THE PARTIES from the time period did you?

Not really.

There is no mention of the frank exchanges contained in the Kennedy/ Ben-Gurion correspondence in 1963.

There is no mention of NSAM 231 or the deception employed by the Israelis hosting the American inspections of Dimona, including concealing the existence of an underground reprocessing plant.

And the so-called JFK-Peres exchange uses a memo from Asst. Secretary Talbot, whoever he was, to Myer Feldman to sugar coat Peres lying to Kennedy. Peres' actual words were "I can tell you most clearly that we will not introduce nuclear weapons to the region, and certainly we will not be the first. Our interest is in reducing armament, even in complete disarmament". An impressive quartet of lies. There was a note taker present, namely Myer Feldman. Peres later boasted that his improvisation became Israel's policy for years to come.

A bunch of briefing notes and memos, selectively chosen by the Jewish Virtual Library, doesn't constitute ALL the relevant correspondence between all the parties. You'll need to do better than that.

Maybe you didn't quite follow Mark...

Please point us to a section or sections (with page numbers) where you feel Piper makes his case...

I used the word "the" not "all"... so where are the sources for these "Frank exchanges" as you say.



from piper's index:Ben-Gurion, David 9, 37, 40, 46, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 55, 56, 57, 97,101, 159,
243, 291, 297, 298, 304, 309, 407, 620-630 (See Chapter 5 and Appendix Nine inparticular)


Chapter 5 -
By mid-1963 Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurionhated Kennedy with a passion. In fact, he considered JFK a
threat to the very survival ofthe Jewish State.


"Later, Myer Feldman, Kennedy's aide for Middle East matters, would
reveal that in return for the periodic U.S. inspections, Ben-Gurion had
exacted a promise of provision of advanced Hawk ground-to-air missiles.
"There is no reason to doubt Kennedy's seriousness in wanting to track
Israeli nuclear research and forestall weapons development, but whether
annual inspections under the terms indicated achieved this result [was, as
events unfolded] open to question." 105
So it was that John F. Kennedy unintentionally found himself already
at loggerheads with Israel behind the scenes.

THE SECRETWAR
Kennedy's friendly overtures to the Arab states were only a public
aspect of what ultimately developed into an all-out 'secret war' between
Kennedy and Israel.
According to Seymour Hersh: "Israel's bomb, and what to do about it,
became a White House fixation, part of the secret presidential agenda that
would remain hidden for the next thirty years."106
As Hersh notes, quite profoundly we see in retrospect, this secret war
with Israel was never once noted by any of Kennedy's biographers.107 If
indeed it had been, as we shall see, the mystery behind the JFK
assassination might have been unraveled long, long ago

106 Hersh, p. 100. (That's it Mark -

Seymour Hersh. The Samson Option: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and
American Foreign Policy. (New York: Random House, 1991), p. 98.
According to The New York Times, Hersh relied on Ari Ben-Menashe, a former Israeli government employee who says he worked for Israeli intelligence, for much of his information on the state of the Israeli nuclear program. However, Hersh confirmed all of this information with at least one other source.[SUP][1][/SUP] Hersh did not travel to Israel to conduct interviews for the book, believing that he might have been subject to the Israeli Military Censor. Nevertheless, he did interview Israelis in the United States and Europe during his three years of research.[SUP][1][/SUP]

(1)Brinkley, Joel (1991-10-20). "Israeli Nuclear Arsenal Exceeds Earlier Estimates, Book Reports". The New York Times. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht...gewanted=1*. Retrieved 2007-11-13.

[size=12]*President Kennedy repeatedly pressed David Ben-Gurion, the Israeli Prime Minister, to give assurances that Israel was not pursuing the development of nuclear weapons. He finally won permission for an American inspector to examine the Dimona plant once each year. But the Israelis built a false control room and other fake sites and managed to convince the inspector year after year that Dimona was involved only in academic research.

[/SIZE]According to Seymour Hersh,"Israel's bomb program, and the
continuing exchange of letters about it, would complicate, and eventually
poison, Kennedy's relationship with DavidBen-Gurion."
[size=12][size=12][size=12][size=12]
[size=12]What was on Ben-Gurion's mind as he turned over the reins of
government to his successor? What was David Ben-Gurion's final act as
Prime Minister of the Jewish State? In light of Ben-Gurion's explicit
comment to John F. Kennedy that "my people have the right to exist. .
and this existence is in danger," we can certainly make a goodpresumption.

In Ben-Gurion's eyes, John F. Kennedy was clearly a modern-day
Hamanan enemy of the Jewish people.

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]In the BibleDeut 25:19, I Sam. 15:8the ancient Hebrews were
urged to "blot out the memory of the Amalekites" from whom Haman
descended.

In Israelin 1963David Ben-Gurion certainly looked upon John F.
Kennedy as a modern-day Haman, a son of the Amalekites. As he pondered
the brutal conflict with JFK, Ben-Gurion no doubt remembered the
meditation that is read on Purim:

Where does PIPER get this crap Mark - a modern day Haman - please... there is nothing in that chapter or even in the chapters preceeding that comes close to identifying the reasons or the results of this HATRED other than Piper's words... please make your case for why Piper writes this about JFK?

"A wicked man, an arrogant offshoot of the seed of Amalek, rose up
against us. Insolent in his riches, he digged himself a pit, and hisown
greatness laid him a snare. In his mind he thought to entrap, but was
himself entrapped; he sought to destroy, but was himself speedilydestroyed
. . . he made him a gallows, and was himself hanged thereon."
[size=12][size=12]
[size=12]It is the thesis of this volume that Ben-Gurion, in his final days as
Prime Minister, ordered the Mossad to participate in the JFKassassination
conspiracy. Based upon evidence that we will outline in
Final Judgment, we believe that the Mossad carried out Ben-Gurion'sorder.


[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

This is the extent of his evidence for the SECRET HATRED...?

SO this is Piper's big proof - SY HERSH SAID SO? and the man NEVER EVEN WENT TO ISRAEL...
ONE source checked possibly by one other source... maybe...

Piper sure leaves no stone unturned to discover the REAL EVENTS of the time... but will believe whatever Sy pushes as FACT and EVIDENCE.

That JFK agreed to sell Hawks, and did... for Israel opening up their reactor to inspection... and for wanting to continue to talk peace in the Middle East...
Looks to me from the sources that it was Israel just being secretive and sabatoging the US's attempts at Middle East peace talks...

As I asked... post some text that supports your claim Mark/Albert... Piper relying on Hersh as the source for something "never once noted by any Kennedy biographer"
and you falling for it hook lina nd sinker - well Piper falling for it and then offering no source at all to support this "secret war" other than "trust me" strikes me as very poor research
when attempting to conclude that JFK and Israel were locked in some antagonistic secret war....

But please - post Piper's evidence...

Appendix 9 - "in particular" can be the subject of my next post

but here is a snipet of Piper defending himself against criticism without an ounce of substance - only supposition and Faith....
Pretty sad endorsement Albert/Mark... when we actually go look and find nothing but hot air and Sy Hersh propping Piper's theory up
and repeated unfootnoted CONCLUSIONS that only Piper comes to...

But please... post a rebuttal WITH EVIDENCE - I will gladly read and post anything you say supports your/his case....
So far, the other members of the forum have this book nailed for what it is... and its sources for what they are...

Can you rebut without ad hominem boys? - You'd have ot agree that Manchester's book offers an amazing amount of behind the scenes info... "Israel" does not even appear in the index.

btw - I will post in rainbow skittles colors if I choose Mark... Piper's support of this hatred is transparent no matter what color we post in

DJ



p620Piper claims as fact that the "primary reason" for David
Ben-Gurion's resignation asPrime Minister of Israel was
his "inability to pressureJFK into accepting Israel's
demands."

He cites Seymour Hersh's
The Samson Option as evidence. (a joke in itself)

As Hersh makes clear, and this is
clearly evident in the quotePiper produces to prove that
the "nuclear option"was the "primary reason," this was
just "another factor."

For the uninitiatedwhichincludes most of those who read the library
review, without having read
Final Judgment (or Hersh's book)this might
sound like quite a damning indictment.

But the truth is that while other factors played a part in Ben-Gurion's
resignation, the final showdown with JFK over the nuclear bomb was the
proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back" and, clearly, the "primary
reason" behind Ben-Gurion's resignation.

[size=12][size=12][size=12][size=12]The bottom line is thatin 1963the issue of JFK's conflict with Ben-
Gurion was a secret to both the Israeli public and the American public and it
remained so for more than 20 years at least and still largely remains so,
despite the release of Hersh's book, followed by
[/SIZE][size=12]Final Judgment [/SIZE][size=12]and then [/SIZE][size=12]the book by Avner Cohen.
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
So secret in fact, there is no corroboration by anyone in the JFK administration... what about Feldman?
Nope, there doesn't seem to be anyone with credibility to corroborate Sy's accusations...

Why is that boys?
DJ

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou..._1962.html
I also informed Ben-Gurion that we would inform Nasser of the decision in the hope that we could prevent escalation of weapons in the Near East. Ben-Gurion replied that he would gladly agree to no missiles at all if Nasser would agree to arms limitations and controls. In fact, he said he would like to exclude weapons of every kind from the area.
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