Michael Piper and Final Judgment

[David Josephs]

Now you have JFK threatening the future existence of Israel by asking BG not to produce weapons...

Again you miss the point.

From Ben-Gurion's perspective, JFK was threatening the future existence of Israel.

Read his letters if you need evidence of this. "Mr. President, my people have a right to exist", he says at one point.

You need to read Israel and the Bomb by Cohen. No flowery rhetoric in this book, I assure you.

Otherwise you might keep making these uninformed comments for months. I'll highlight every one of them.

Fair enough Mark... yet Since 1947 most every "Top" Israeli has been saying they have a right to exist - that's just Israeli rhetoric... they still say it today...
A "Right to exist" does not translate to "Give me Nukes or we KILL you"

You do understand that NO ONE in the rgion had nukes yet...
Israel wanted nukes at any cost - even to potentially alienate their greatest supporter...

Did anything JFK do or say stop progress at Dimona, Mark?
Did JFK enact any types of "punishments" for BG's actions other than your "harsh words" and the request to abide by USA's desire to explore peace in the region..

Does it not make sense to you that the "power" would want Israel to have a nuke asap so both sides have to escalate...
so the chance of war was so much greater and War profiteering/US Foreign policy enters the "poke em in the side until they fight back" ala Japan and WWII, so once again the cash machine can churn.

The idea that BG would initiate such an act with such a SMALL PRIZE in mind is again, Piper's shortsightedness.
I am sure Cohen makes a convincing argument related to Israel and the Bomb... and I WILL go find it....

but IMO JFK was killed for much larger reasons that Israel's bomb... None Dare, Mark... A nukesless, threatless Middle East is not nearly as profitable to the MIC/CIA/Mossad/etc. as a heavily armed Middle East.
Why would France act in such defiance of the US's wishes? a BIGGER PICTURE maybe?

DJ

From Israel and the Bomb... it again seems apparent that it was Israel, France and Britain who were hiding Dimona's purpose from the US since 1958...

From an Israeli perspective, however, this failure was crucial for the survival of the nuclear project. Had the U.S. discovered Dimona soon after launching, and exerted political pressure on both France and Israel, the Dimona project might have never been completed.In
retrospect, the late 1950s might have been the only time that the United States could have successfully pressured Israel to give up its nuclear weapons project in exchange American security guarantee, but the opportunity was not explored.

Documents

Document 1. A memorandum
of conversation between Israeli Ambassador to the US Abba Eban and Ambassador
Morehead Patterson, President Eisenhower's special emissary on atomic energy,
concerning bilateral agreement for cooperation in the peaceful use of atomic
energy. Israel had expressed early on of its interest to sign such an agreement
with the United States, as part of the "Atoms for Peace" initiative, and was the
second country (after Turkey) to do so. Within days the agreement reached the
offices of Prime Minister Moshe Sharett and minister of Defense David Ben
Gurion. "We found no fault in it," wrote Sharett in his diary. Then he explained
this: "It does not prohibit us from contacting other powers, nor even the use of
nuclear power to be produced in by own means. On the other hand, it promises us
a reactor for experiments and also research, and requires only one limitation:
not to use this reactor for any other purpose." Two months later, on 12 July
1955, Israel and the US signed the agreement.
Source: United States National Archives
For more Details: Israel and the Bomb, pages 44-45.



Documents 15-16. The hour and a half-long meeting between President Kennedy and Prime Minister Ben Gurion was anticlimactic. What clearly set the relaxed and amicable tone was the scientists' report on the Dimona reactor that Kennedy received prior to the meeting. Ambassador Harman took notes for the Israeli side, while Feldman took notes for the American participants. The American and Israeli versions of the conversation are presented here in full.
From these minutes it is evident that, on the matter of Dimona, both leaders wanted to avoid a confrontation. Each leader seems to have had a sense of his own political limits. Neither wanted to rock the boat. The nuclear issue was the reason for the New York meeting and the cause of Ben Gurion's apprehensions, but it took up no more than ten to fifteen minutes of the conversation. Kennedy exerted no new pressure and Ben Gurion had no need to use all the arguments he had prepared. As his biographer wrote, "Ben Gurion felt relieved. The reactor was saved, at least for the time being."




Document 1. On 5 July, less than ten days after Levi Eshkol became prime minister, Ambassador Barbour delivered a 3-page letter to him from President John Kennedy. Not since President Eisenhower's message to Ben Gurion, in the midst of the Suez crisis in November 1956, had an American president been so blunt with an Israeli prime minister. Kennedy told Eshkol that the American commitment and support of Israel 'could be seriously jeopardized' if Israel did not let the United States obtain 'reliable information' about Israel's efforts in the nuclear field. In the letter Kennedy presented specific demands on how the American inspection visits to Dimona should be executed. Since the United States had not been involved in the building of Dimona and no international law or agreement had been violated, Kennedy demands were indeed unprecedented. They amounted, in effect, to American ultimatum. Source: Israel State Archive, Jerusalem
For more information: Israel and the Bomb, 153-162.


Mark... this is what we are offered without buying the book.... the HARSH LETTER was to Eshkol after BG "retires"
AFTER years of stalling and lying and hiding BY ISRAEL to it's #1 Ally in the WORLD....

Can you paraphrase Cohen's evidence stating this letter to Eshkol caused BG's breakdown and helped lead to the Mossad/Mafia/CIA assassination...
According to the site, BG and JFK left on good terms... BG lying to JFK about his reactor... and JFK not pushing the point.

I simply want a source you offer to actually CONFIRM the story, not reinforce my argument that Israel and nukes were no where near the top of any list of reasons BG himself would be behind anything.
Did JFK's death benefit the Nuke program... yes, of course.... did it aid the CFR group and help them push the world into the directions it wanted - yes.

THAT is why we can say that elements of these groups WERE INVOLVED... when you finally remove the anit-semitism from the discussion as well as remove nationalities, boundaries and politics
you find yourself back in the NONE DARE world... where governments are PUSHED towards a unified goal.... NOT where a government strives for peace.

my .02
DJ