Harvey and Lee vs. Richard Case Nagell

[Jan Klimkowski]

Any and all information coming from East of Warsaw is suspect.
THEY taught US about the manchurian candidate/patsy... peeking into Oswald's brain should have revealed "Wiring MADE in the USSR"

David - please expand.

Are you suggesting Manchurian origin with a fine White Russian gloss?

Precisely... the USSR had been working with these tactics and techniques for years... which resulted in the development of fighting "fire with fire" techniques by the CIA

David - I respectfully disagree, based on more than two decades of researching the "mind control" programmes and personally interviewing dozens of the victims.

In the MK-ULTRA Iceberg thread, I wrote:

In his documentary, "You Have Used Me as a Fish Long Enough", gifted film-maker Adam Curtis argues that mind control programmes such as MK-ULTRA ultimately proved unsuccessful.

As a result, Curtis' film argues, the military-industrial complex abandoned its dream of directly controlling the individual mind. Instead, it turned to ever more sophisticated forms of mass propaganda - such as the manipulation of the historical record and the shaping of contemporary reality as presented through network television news & current affairs.

Curtis' argument probably represents the consensus amongst those few academic historians who are interested in MK-ULTRA and its legacy. I believe that consensus to be wrong.

Many years of researching Bluebird/Artichoke/MK-ULTRA and its even more hidden British counterpart, and speaking and corresponding with individuals who claim to have been guinea pigs in these programmes, have convinced me that the covert mind control techniques had three main origins:

i) the medical and psychological research on soldiers with "shellshock" dating back to the Crimean and American Civil War, and continuing through WW1 & WW2. Many soldiers whose psyches had been fragmented by the experience of terrible events, and were suffering from what we now term Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, effectively became experimental subjects. Whilst many of the shellshock doctors had the best of intentions, others were directly involved in the mind control programmes. For instance, perhaps the most famous of all the British shellshock doctors, William Sargant, collaborated extensively with Ewen Cameron and Sidney Gottlieb of MK-ULTRA notoriety. Sargant even betrayed CIA doctor Frank Olson to Gottlieb when Olson described his horror at witnessing terminal mind control experiments in 1953, probably either in Britain or in former IG Farben buildings in Frankfurt which were by then occupied by the CIA. Olson's son, Eric, has good evidence that his father was subsequently murdered by CIA elements;

ii) the very mechanical theories of the brain which were academically fashionable at the time of WW2, particularly Operant Conditioning, Classical Conditioning, and Behaviourism, and their gurus - IP Pavlov and BF Skinner. These very crude psychological frameworks suggested to the mind control doctors that the human brain could be programmed. These theories drove much of the research well into the 1970s when Drs Ervin and Mark, proteges of Robert G Heath (of brain electrode fame) and Louis Jolyon West (of MK-ULTRA notoriety) attempted to convert a disused missile base into a location for eradicating violent tendencies in primarily black prisoners using methods which can perhaps be best described as lobotomization of the limbic system. Ervin and Mark even suggested Lee Harvey Oswald's brain would have been ideal for their destructive techniques;

iii) the shamanic and occult techniques for creating trance and dissociated states, and for guiding or controlling the behaviour of an individual placed in such a state.

It is this third occult/shamanic element that Peter Levenda's concept of the "Manson Secret" captures (articulated in his brilliant Sinister Forces trilogy), and which Marks' concept of the "Manchurian Candidate" does not. The triggering of the dissociated state often involves the same techniques: eg hypnosis, narcotics, sensory deprivation, pain (whether self-inflicted, eg being made to stand with arms outstretched and fingers inches above a live electric wire, or inflicted by another person), trauma, fear. However, the "Manson Secret" concept makes explicit the fact that the people who best knew how to programme and control dissociated states were those with an occult or shamanic background.

These mind control programmes, which began with experiments on POWs, prisoners, enemy nationals and orphans, appear - over time - to have been increasingly contracted out. Sometimes this contracting out went to black military operations. I have testimony from several individuals of the increasingly sophisticated use of hypno-narcotic programming, and sensory deprivation/trauma experiments, occuring during the Vietnam War's Phoenix Program. Both on the individual level - programming of friendly operatives prior to a sensitive operation. And on the mass level - acts of horror designed psychologically to terrorize and traumatize the enemy. Douglas Valentine, the historian of the Phoenix Program, has described horrific events which take on an entirely different cast if viewed through the lens of MK-ULTRA.

It is my contention that the knowledge to control human behaviour existed originally in the occult and shamanic traditions. All C20th "mind control" programmes have been shown to have studied shamanism. However, it is the occult tradition that first codified these techniques in secret, written, rituals.

The notion that the American mind control programmes were born in response to those nasty commies brainwashing our boys and girls is a propaganda lie, peddled by the likes of CIA "writer" Edward Hunter. The American mind control programmes existed long before the Korean War.

The occult tradition is essentially supra-national. Thulse Gessellschaft, the Golden Dawn, the Ordo Templis Orientis, the Rosicrucians, Theosophy, the high levels of Freemasonry etc respect no national boundaries. Nor do the likes of Mathers, Blavatsky, Steiner, Gurdjieff, Crowley.

By the 1930s, British and American intelligence were using dissociative techniques to plant messages deep in the subconsicous of couriers, and then direct them to travel to location x. The secret message was locked behind a hypnotic trigger, and could only be retrieved by a person who knew that precise trigger. For instance, Prof Estabrooks of Colgate University, New York State, wrote of using these techniques in WW2.

As for Manchuria itself, I had long debates with John Bevilaqua, @DPF, about what may or may not have happened in Manchuria and the role of parts of the White Russian community in potentially receiving and using these "Manchurian secrets".

Atsugi had an active MK-ULTRA cell. We know from the history of the mind control programmes that whilst extreme experimentation was undertaken on captive or voiceless communities , eg soldiers, orphans, the most extreme experimentation usually took place in foreign lands.

The Bluebird cafe incident is strongly suggestive of a field test of operational programming on Oswald.

So, if Oswald was a victim of the mind control programmers, I suspect this was before his sojourn to the USSR.

Jim Root has argued that Oswald was enrolled in a deeply compartmentalised "false defector" programme. This is certainly worth considering.

Once in the USSR, it is again entirely possible that Oswald's hospital stay involved the KGB "mind control" experts testing Oswald extensively. We know they were suspicious of him from the start.

If Oswald had been programmed in the narco-hypno-trauma MK-ULTRA model, then the Soviets would have attempted to trigger dissociative states in him.

So what would have happened?

We're now in the territory explored by the likes of researcher Walter Bowart, academic Alan Scheflin and lawyer Valerie Wolf.

Whatever.

Sirhan Sirhan was clearly programmed in the narco-hypno-trauma model.

As a Manchurian Patsy. Not as a Manchurian Assassin.

The real assassins were elsewhere. The Manchurian simply had to be in the right place at the right time, to provide a guilty body for the police to arrest whilst the killers escaped.

This is what the mind control programmes delivered.

Not Manchurian Candidates. Rather Manchurian Patsies.

The distinction is critical.