Michael Piper and Final Judgment

[David Josephs]

Maybe if people just stop responding to Albert and Mark this thread will die a much- needed death.
Dawn

I don't see this as a credible argument for Deep Political analysis of the evidence for Israeli facilitation of the assassination. You've personalized subject matter. It's the subject matter that is being discussed here (or avoided) not those who discuss it.

So full circle maybe we can put this to rest….

Mark linked to aspecific page in an EF thread where Rago posts a number of times….

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/in...ic=19206&st=90

My goodness I thinkthe EF got it right. It wasn't just Israel, but they were a major player. I waspartly right

Jim Phelps and MikoRago are impressive researchers, imo. Best JFK thread I've seen.

And some veryinteresting names appear in the troll sideshow.

#1 Israel is building a Reactor with the French Gov't's help that ends and is picked up by private companies. Dulles tells NSC Israel is building a nuclear complex

Mike Rago, on 14 September 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:
Heavy Water
http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

The French give it asecond thought....and Allen Dulles is informed

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Quote #1

The French, on theother hand, were no longer so sure that they wanted Israel to join the nuclear club, notifying the Israeli ambassador in May 1960 that France had decided to end its nuclear relationship with Israel. However a distinction was made between government-to-government ties andcommercial interests. French companies were allowed to continue working on the Dimona reactor and did so until it was completed in 1963 or 1964, at which point, with blueprints acquired from the Saint-Gobain enterprise, the Israelis were working on the reactors fuel reprocessing plant. The continuing French"private" support for the Israeli nuclear weapons program had not gone unobserved: "In late October and early November [1960] the United Kingdom informed the United States that it believed a reactor was under construction near Beer Sheba. On 8 November British intelligence provided CIA/PIC with ground photography of the site. The next day, based on a hurried analysis ofthe photography, a preliminary assessment was made in the CIA--'the site was probably a reactor complex'. On December 2 (1960), Allen Dulles informed the National Security Council that Israel was building a nuclear complex in the Negev,probably including a reactor capable of producing weapons-grade plutonium. This was made public on December 18 when the chairman of the AEC, John McCone,announced it on the television program Meet the Press. The next day the NewYork Times carried the story on its front page.

IS THIS INDICATIVE OF A JFK/BG RIFT THE SUGGESTS HISINVOLVEMENT IN THE ASSASSINATION? OR INDICATIVE OF JJA KEEPING IT CLOSE TO THE VEST?

#2 Mr Rago and by default Mark and Albert will accept ANYTHING the supports Piper, checked for accuracy or not…. "IMPRESSIVE RESEARCH", right?

Quote #2
Why did it take morethan three years for the American intelligence establishment to reach theconclusion that Israel was planning to build nuclear weapons at the"peaceful" nuclear research station at Dimona? According to AvnerCohen's account in Israel and the Bomb, "Information about Israel wasjealously held within the CIA, where James Jesus Angelton was in charge of theIsraeli desk. Angleton did not sharesensitive information with other agencies, and also withheld much of it fromother CIA sections".


Below is a draft report on Israel's Nuclear Activity on JANUARY 30, 1961
And we obviously KNEW something was up REGARDLESS of what JJA was doing.

AGAIN is this in any way indicative of Israeli involvement in the assassination?


Israel's NuclearActivities
(January 30, 1961)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This memorandum notesIsrael's claim to not be seeking nuclearcapability and the U.S.'s position on Israel's research.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUBJECT
Israel's Atomic EnergyActivities

In 1955 under the"Atoms-for-Peace" program the United States undertook to assistIsrael with its atomic energy development program. Subsequently a one megawattresearch reactor was built with our aid at Nahal Rubin, near Tel Aviv.

In the summer andearly fall of 1960 rumors reached our Embassy at Tel Aviv that the French werecollaborating with the Israelis in the construction of a large reactor atDimona, near Beersheba, in the northern part of the Negev desert. After ourintelligence agencies had established on December 2 that a significant atomicinstallation was in fact being built near Beersheba, Secretary Herter onDecember 9 called in Israeli Ambassador Harman who undertook to obtain fullinformation from his government. After anumber of exchanges, Prime Minister Ben-Gurion gave us categoric (sic) assurancessupported by appropriate public statements to the effect that Israel does nothave plans for developing nuclear weaponry. The French have also assured usthat their assistance is premised on Israel's atomic energy program beingsolely for peaceful purposes. Ben-Gurion had indicated that aside from normalmilitary precautions the reason for Israel's extreme secrecy with respect tothe Dimona project was his fear and that of the foreign firms assisting the projectthat the Arab states would boycott or take other retaliatory measures againstany firm or even country assisting the project. There is considerablejustification for this Israeli reasoning.

Our government'sconcern was two-fold: a) pursuant to Congressional legislation and firmexecutive branch policy the UnitedStates is opposed to the proliferation of nuclear weapons capabilities; andb) Israel's acquisition of nuclearweapons would have grave repercussions in the Middle East, not the least of whichmight be the probable stationing of Soviet nuclear weapons on the soil ofIsrael's embittered Arab neighbors.

The Israeli and Frenchassurances which we have received appear to be satisfactory, although severalminor questions still require clarification. In any case, the Departmentconsiders this not a single episode but a continuing subject and it is theintention of our intelligence agencies to maintain a continuing watch on Israelas on other countries to assure that nuclear weapons capabilities are not beingproliferated. At the moment, we areencouraging the Israelis to permit a qualified scientist from the United Statesor other friendly power to visit the Dimona installation. Prime MinisterBen-Gurion has indicated that this may be possible at an early date.

A full chronology ofour interest in Israel's atomic energy activities is attached in the event thatit may be of interest to you./2/

Dean Rusk/3/

/1/Source: Departmentof State, Central Files, 884A.1901/1-3061. Secret. Drafted by Meyer (NEA/NE).

/2/Attached but notprinted.

/3/Printed from a copythat indicates Rusk signed the original.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: ForeignRelations of the United States, 1961-1963: Near East, 1962-1963, V. XVIII.

AND
This is a paper dated THE NEXT DAY - 31 Jan 1961 entitled
"Implications of theacquisition by Israel of a Nuclear WEAPONS Capability"
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/CIA/cianuke013161.pdf

See the front page attached



#3 I ask once again… the THIRD POST ON THAT SAME PAGE linked by Mark….
JJA has knowledge great.

HOW IS THIS INDICATIVE OF AN ISRAELI INVOLVMENT IN THEASSASSINATION?
And how does the above referenced paper on Israel's NuclearCapability on JANUARY 31, 1961 get written if only JJA knows about this?

More James JesusAngleton


Quote #3


Angleton, it turns outknew of what he spoke. In Top Secret testimony to the Church Committee TadSzulc outlined Angleton's own account of U.S assistance to the Israeli atombomb program.

"I was told byone of my news sources that a situation had occurred in the 1960's in which theCIA delivered to the Israeli government classified information , technicalknowledge, know-who, the services of distinguished physicists and fissionablematerial in the form of plutonium to assist in the development of an Israelinuclear weapon at the Dimona Israeli Nuclear Testing grounds....
I have raised thesubject in private conversation with Mr. James Angleton in the spring of thisyear [April 1975]. Mr. Angleton told me that essentially this information wascorrect.
...
Angleton correctedSzulc on two points, saying that the events had taken place in the late 1950's,after the Suez War, and that no fissionable material had been delivered. Szulcthen asked Angleton "whether he could confirm that a British bornscientist...Wilfrid Basil Mann...was indeed one of the scientist involved inthis operation. Mr. Angleton confirmed that indeed this was the case.

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

===================

#4 I linked to the entire report… on that website I'vebeen pulling from this entire thread the one that Mark feels is NOTrepresentative of the situation yet is good enough to quote thru Rago as an "impressive researcher"

Maybe if he kept reading he would have avoided posting this:
7. Yet with all this outcry the Arabs would be basicallyfrustrated. No really satisfactory course of action would be open to them to counter the Israeli achievement.Nasser might be tempted to strike at Dimona, but would probably be deterred bythe fear that Israeli retaliation would destroy him before internationalpeace-keeping machinery could intervene to suppress the conflict. Thenationalist leaders would doubtless try to work up a high degree ofinternational pressure to restrain Israel from aggressive action. They would probably attempt to persuade thegreat powers to force Israel to submit its nuclear capability to internationalcontrol--an attempt which would almost certainly be unsuccessful. Nasserwould contemplate, and might embark upon, a nuclear weapons program of his own,with what technical help he could beg or hire from abroad; but this would atbest be a lengthy and expensive enterprise, highly provocative to Israel. The principal advantage in the short termwould be to give Nasser something to make speeches about. In his efforts torestore Arab morale, Nasser might claim to have nonnuclear weapons of massdestruction--chemical or biological--and might even make an effort to developsome capability along these lines.

PLEASE YET AGAIN, THIS WAS THE INITIAL POST WHICH BRINGSUS TO THIS POINT AND EVEN THE SOURCE DOES NOT MAKE THE CONNECTION.
===========
In1967 Israel gets thebomb...

Quote #4


By the mid-1960's theCIA station in Tel Aviv was convinced, for good reason, that the Israeli's hadan atomic bomb program. These field reports became official in March 1963, whenthe head of the Office of National Estimates, Sherman Kent, released a reporton "Consequences of Israeli Acquisition of Nuclear Capability.". (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou..._6_63.html)
Kent wrote that"Israel's policy toward its neighbors would become more rather [than] lesstough... t would ...seek to exploit the psychological advantages of itsnuclear capability to intimidate the Arabs and to prevent them from makingtrouble on the frontiers...[Israel] would use all its means at its command topersuade the US to acquiesce in, and even to support, its possession of nuclearcapability."
Kent predicted thatthe Arab countries would be dismayed and frustrated and turn from the UnitedStates to the Soviet Union for support. Three years later the CIA predictedthat Israeli "assembly of a nuclear weapon could be completed in 6-8weeks, a prediction that came true when, just before the 1967 war, Israel puttogether two nuclear weapons.

And I will have to disagree with Dawn… this thread is VITAL to countering the "Israel was involved because JFK pissed off BG"

There is not a shred of evidence that Israel's efforts tobuild this reactor and the US response had anything at all to do with a buildup to his assassination.

The reaching for straws here by Mark and Albert is worsethan listening to DVP defend the SBT.

Will Mark or Albert ever post something FREOM PIPER'S BOOK that actually supports the argument?
I can't imagine they can as I've been thru the entire book now a number of times…

No matter how many ways you want to slice it… Piper's SHITE will never be art, nor taken seriously until a defendable case can be made thatsomehow relates to the evidence from the time.

Cheers
DJ

pps.... Looking at what Ike made the Israeli's and BG do in Egypt, as well as the bonds France and Isreal created at this time and their mutual distrust of Nassar
maybe one of you two can explain why IKE was not slated for assassination so they could KEEP their won territories and remove Egypt and Nassar from the picture?

JFK, if I read history correctly, didn't make Isreal STOP or DO anything related to Dimona and their program....

WHEN - IF EVER - ARE EITHER OF YOU GOING TO PROVE YOUR POINTS?

Thanks

Ike Forces Israel to Withdraw

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...z_War.html
President Eisenhower was upset by the fact that Israel, France
and Great Britain had secretly planned the campaign to evict Egypt from the Suez Canal. Israel's
failure to inform the United States of its intentions, combined with ignoring
American entreaties not to go to war, sparked tensions between the countries.
The United States subsequently joined the Soviet Union (ironically, just after
the Soviets invaded Hungary) in a campaign to force Israel to withdraw. This
included a threat to discontinue
all U.S. assistance, UN sanctions and
expulsion from the UN (see exchanges between Ben-Gurion and Eisenhower).

U.S. pressure resulted in an Israeli withdrawal from the areas
it conquered without obtaining any concessions from the Egyptians. This sowed
the seeds of the 1967 war.

One reason Israel did give in to Eisenhower was the assurance
he gave to Prime Minister [URL="https://deeppoliticsforum.com/biography/ben_gurion.html"]David
Ben-Gurion[/URL]. Before evacuating Sharm al-Sheikh, the strategic point guarding
the Straits of Tiran, Israel elicited a
promise that the United States would maintain the freedom of navigation in the
waterway. In addition, Washington sponsored a UN resolution creating the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) to
supervise the territories vacated by the Israeli forces.

The war temporarily ended the activities of the
fedayeen; however, they were renewed a few years by a loosely knit group
of terrorist organizations that became know as the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO).