14-03-2014, 12:09 AM
As I wrote to Jim directly.. placing the Assassiantion of JFK at the feet of the CIA is basically the same as saying the hitman is to blame when acting on the orders of the Bonanno, Colombo, Gambino, Genovese and Lucchese families.
the MUSCLE decides how to do the job, the heads of the families issue the order...
The "CIA" is not a person. The assassination was planned by and carried out by people... not acronyms...
Are we actually to believe that the CIA agents on the ground took it upon themselves to "stand-up for Dulles" and for all the other JFK initiated attacks and just "took him out" ?
Which CIA agents were at Bethesda getting LeMay, Galloway, Burkley and Kinney to cover it up?
Which CIA agents got Hoover to do what he did... in the destruction, alteration, creation of evidence?
Which CIA agents changed the motorcade order/rout putting the press at the back, and removing McHugh from the front seat and bringing the target to the patsy?
I am not suggesting that the CIA was not involved... far from it. But the muscle does not make the rules... the muscle does what it is told with assurances they will not be caught. Or if caught, not prosecuted, or if prosecuted, not found guilty, or if found guilty, not serve time... unless those who want it to be... let it be.
You want to believe HUNT was on the inside of this simply because he was in Dallas... Lansdale goes forward with something like this without assurances of coverage?
This discussion is not about absolving the CIA by any means... but it should not also be an idictment of an agency full of people, 99% of which had nothing to do with this.
Where does McGeorge Bundy come into play here Jim? You remember, the guy who cancelled the destruction of the last 3 planes on the ground in Cuba and the one who tells AF-1 there was no conspiracy and Oswald was the man.. ? Are you aware of HIS connections... you surely are not absolving HIM are you?
Raised in Boston, Massachusetts, Bundy came from a wealthy family long involved in Republican[SUP][1][/SUP] politics. His mother, Katherine Lawrence (Putnam), was the daughter of two Boston Brahmin families listed in the Social Register. His father, Harvey Hollister Bundy, was from Grand Rapids, Michigan and was a diplomat who helped implement the Marshall Plan.
Bundy attended the elite Dexter School in Brookline, Massachusetts and then the Groton School, where he placed first in his class and ran the student newspaper and debating society. He was then admitted to Yale University, one year behind his brother William. At Yale, where he majored in mathematics, he served as secretary of the Yale Political Union and then chairman of its Liberal Party. He was on the staff of the Yale Literary Magazine and also wrote a column for the Yale Daily News. Like his father, he was inducted into the Skull and Bones secret society, where he was nicknamed "Odin". He remained in contact with his fellow Bonesmen for decades afterward.[SUP][2][/SUP] He graduated Yale in the class of 1940. During World War II he served as a U.S. Army intelligence officer.[SUP][3][/SUP]
In 1949, Bundy took a position at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York to study Marshall Plan aid to Europe. The study group included such luminaries as Dwight Eisenhower, Allen Dulles, Richard M. Bissell, Jr. and George Kennan. The group's deliberations were sensitive and highly secret, dealing as they did with the highly classified fact that there was a covert side to the Marshall Plan, where the CIA used certain funds to aid anti-communist groups in France and Italy.[SUP][5][/SUP]
He left government in 1966 to take over as president of the Ford Foundation, a position he held until 1979.
Not too many connections to the "invisible hands" of this world for us to be concerned...
move along, nothing to see here....
:
:
====
The documents found at the link at the bottom of this post plainly spells out JFK's desire to remove Deim yet to replace him PEACEFULLY with a civilian leadership sympathetic to US goals...
(Viet Nam, please remember, was a CIA created situation entirely thru the movement of 1.2 million North Vietnamese into the South and a campaign of terror via the "Strategic Hamlets")
Had JFK been aware of the steps that led to the conflict, would things have been different?
Either the Military, including McNamara and Taylor, were somehow snowed into thinking the situation in Vietnam was one thing when in fact is was another... or they were part of the charade...
If you've not read their report and the account by Prouty in JFK, Vietnam and the CIA... I highly suggest it.
The CIA leadership had its own agenda regardless of the President... yet WHO was it that IKE warned us about? the CIA? or a Military Industrial Congressional (removed for the speech) Complex
The militaryindustrial complex, or militaryindustrialcongressional complex,[SUP][1][/SUP] comprises the policy and monetary relationships which exist between legislators, national armed forces, and the military industrial base that supports them. These relationships include political contributions, political approval for military spending, lobbying to support bureaucracies, and oversight of the industry. It is a type of iron triangle. The term is most often used in reference to the system behind the military of the United States, where it gained popularity after its use in the farewell address of President Dwight D. Eisenhower on January 17, 1961,[SUP][2][/SUP] though the term is applicable to any country with a similarly developed infrastructure.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP]
Funny - sounds much more like the heads of the 5 families are more the problem than the hitmen pulling the trigger ... or the hitman who decides what's in the best interest of the family without knowing all the information.. those hitmen usually get hit themselves... Bugsy Siegel comes to mind.
We are here at the "Deep Politics Forum"... not the "It's So Obvious" forum. Does it not distress anyone that if the CIA is so OBVIOUSLY the culprits, and the CIA is in the business of deception... "obvious" allows most to call it a done deal and go home... while the actual cuprits in the matter continue doing their thing to this day.
The ONI and Military Intelligence along with the Industrial and Congressional parts of the warning remain a revolving door of opportunity and influence... and even THEY ahve masters..
The NSA and CFR are indeed the only acronyms whose "people" are the entity...
If we are ever to find cupability here, sifting thru the offered and "obvious" minutia of the CIA is not going to get us there...
Cui Bono...? Who benefits?
===============
DOCUMENT 3
Memorandum of Conversation, "Vietnam," August 26, 1963, Noon
SOURCE: JFKL: Roger Hilsman Papers, Country Series, box 4, folder: Vietnam: White House Meetings 8/26/63-8/29/63, State Memcons
The first of a series of records of meetings in which President John F. Kennedy and his lieutenants consider the implications of a coup and the difficulties of bringing off a successful one.
Fast forward now to 10/29/63 and there is full blown White House discussion of what to do about the coup that was coming...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5782[/ATTACH]
.. the transcript of Diem's last phone call to U.S. ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge, inquiring "what the attitude of the U.S. is" towards the coup then underway; Lodge dissembled that he was not "well enough informed at this time to be able to tell you."
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB101/
Records of the Kennedy national security meetings, both here and in our larger collection, show that none of JFK's conversations about a coup in Saigon featured consideration of what might physically happen to Ngo Dinh Diem or Ngo Dinh Nhu. The audio record of the October 29th meeting which we cite below also reveals no discussion of this issue. That meeting, the last held at the White House to consider a coup before this actually took place, would have been the key moment for such a conversation. The conclusion of the Church Committee agrees that Washington gave no consideration to killing Diem. (Note 12) The weight of evidence therefore supports the view that President Kennedy did not conspire in the death of Diem. However, there is also the exceedingly strange transcript of Diem's final phone conversation with Ambassador Lodge on the afternoon of the coup (Document 23), which carries the distinct impression that Diem is being abandoned by the U.S. Whether this represents Lodge's contribution, or JFK's wishes, is not apparent from the evidence available today
the MUSCLE decides how to do the job, the heads of the families issue the order...
The "CIA" is not a person. The assassination was planned by and carried out by people... not acronyms...
Are we actually to believe that the CIA agents on the ground took it upon themselves to "stand-up for Dulles" and for all the other JFK initiated attacks and just "took him out" ?
Which CIA agents were at Bethesda getting LeMay, Galloway, Burkley and Kinney to cover it up?
Which CIA agents got Hoover to do what he did... in the destruction, alteration, creation of evidence?
Which CIA agents changed the motorcade order/rout putting the press at the back, and removing McHugh from the front seat and bringing the target to the patsy?
I am not suggesting that the CIA was not involved... far from it. But the muscle does not make the rules... the muscle does what it is told with assurances they will not be caught. Or if caught, not prosecuted, or if prosecuted, not found guilty, or if found guilty, not serve time... unless those who want it to be... let it be.
You want to believe HUNT was on the inside of this simply because he was in Dallas... Lansdale goes forward with something like this without assurances of coverage?
This discussion is not about absolving the CIA by any means... but it should not also be an idictment of an agency full of people, 99% of which had nothing to do with this.
Where does McGeorge Bundy come into play here Jim? You remember, the guy who cancelled the destruction of the last 3 planes on the ground in Cuba and the one who tells AF-1 there was no conspiracy and Oswald was the man.. ? Are you aware of HIS connections... you surely are not absolving HIM are you?
Raised in Boston, Massachusetts, Bundy came from a wealthy family long involved in Republican[SUP][1][/SUP] politics. His mother, Katherine Lawrence (Putnam), was the daughter of two Boston Brahmin families listed in the Social Register. His father, Harvey Hollister Bundy, was from Grand Rapids, Michigan and was a diplomat who helped implement the Marshall Plan.
Bundy attended the elite Dexter School in Brookline, Massachusetts and then the Groton School, where he placed first in his class and ran the student newspaper and debating society. He was then admitted to Yale University, one year behind his brother William. At Yale, where he majored in mathematics, he served as secretary of the Yale Political Union and then chairman of its Liberal Party. He was on the staff of the Yale Literary Magazine and also wrote a column for the Yale Daily News. Like his father, he was inducted into the Skull and Bones secret society, where he was nicknamed "Odin". He remained in contact with his fellow Bonesmen for decades afterward.[SUP][2][/SUP] He graduated Yale in the class of 1940. During World War II he served as a U.S. Army intelligence officer.[SUP][3][/SUP]
Career[edit]
From 1945 to 1947,[SUP][4][/SUP] Bundy co-authored recently retired United States Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson's third-person autobiography, On Active Service in Peace and War, which was published in 1947.In 1949, Bundy took a position at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York to study Marshall Plan aid to Europe. The study group included such luminaries as Dwight Eisenhower, Allen Dulles, Richard M. Bissell, Jr. and George Kennan. The group's deliberations were sensitive and highly secret, dealing as they did with the highly classified fact that there was a covert side to the Marshall Plan, where the CIA used certain funds to aid anti-communist groups in France and Italy.[SUP][5][/SUP]
He left government in 1966 to take over as president of the Ford Foundation, a position he held until 1979.
Not too many connections to the "invisible hands" of this world for us to be concerned...
move along, nothing to see here....
:
:====
The documents found at the link at the bottom of this post plainly spells out JFK's desire to remove Deim yet to replace him PEACEFULLY with a civilian leadership sympathetic to US goals...
(Viet Nam, please remember, was a CIA created situation entirely thru the movement of 1.2 million North Vietnamese into the South and a campaign of terror via the "Strategic Hamlets")
Had JFK been aware of the steps that led to the conflict, would things have been different?
Either the Military, including McNamara and Taylor, were somehow snowed into thinking the situation in Vietnam was one thing when in fact is was another... or they were part of the charade...
If you've not read their report and the account by Prouty in JFK, Vietnam and the CIA... I highly suggest it.
The CIA leadership had its own agenda regardless of the President... yet WHO was it that IKE warned us about? the CIA? or a Military Industrial Congressional (removed for the speech) Complex
The militaryindustrial complex, or militaryindustrialcongressional complex,[SUP][1][/SUP] comprises the policy and monetary relationships which exist between legislators, national armed forces, and the military industrial base that supports them. These relationships include political contributions, political approval for military spending, lobbying to support bureaucracies, and oversight of the industry. It is a type of iron triangle. The term is most often used in reference to the system behind the military of the United States, where it gained popularity after its use in the farewell address of President Dwight D. Eisenhower on January 17, 1961,[SUP][2][/SUP] though the term is applicable to any country with a similarly developed infrastructure.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP]
Funny - sounds much more like the heads of the 5 families are more the problem than the hitmen pulling the trigger ... or the hitman who decides what's in the best interest of the family without knowing all the information.. those hitmen usually get hit themselves... Bugsy Siegel comes to mind.
We are here at the "Deep Politics Forum"... not the "It's So Obvious" forum. Does it not distress anyone that if the CIA is so OBVIOUSLY the culprits, and the CIA is in the business of deception... "obvious" allows most to call it a done deal and go home... while the actual cuprits in the matter continue doing their thing to this day.
The ONI and Military Intelligence along with the Industrial and Congressional parts of the warning remain a revolving door of opportunity and influence... and even THEY ahve masters..
The NSA and CFR are indeed the only acronyms whose "people" are the entity...
If we are ever to find cupability here, sifting thru the offered and "obvious" minutia of the CIA is not going to get us there...
Cui Bono...? Who benefits?
===============
DOCUMENT 3
Memorandum of Conversation, "Vietnam," August 26, 1963, Noon
SOURCE: JFKL: Roger Hilsman Papers, Country Series, box 4, folder: Vietnam: White House Meetings 8/26/63-8/29/63, State Memcons
The first of a series of records of meetings in which President John F. Kennedy and his lieutenants consider the implications of a coup and the difficulties of bringing off a successful one.
Fast forward now to 10/29/63 and there is full blown White House discussion of what to do about the coup that was coming...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5782[/ATTACH]
.. the transcript of Diem's last phone call to U.S. ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge, inquiring "what the attitude of the U.S. is" towards the coup then underway; Lodge dissembled that he was not "well enough informed at this time to be able to tell you."
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB101/
Records of the Kennedy national security meetings, both here and in our larger collection, show that none of JFK's conversations about a coup in Saigon featured consideration of what might physically happen to Ngo Dinh Diem or Ngo Dinh Nhu. The audio record of the October 29th meeting which we cite below also reveals no discussion of this issue. That meeting, the last held at the White House to consider a coup before this actually took place, would have been the key moment for such a conversation. The conclusion of the Church Committee agrees that Washington gave no consideration to killing Diem. (Note 12) The weight of evidence therefore supports the view that President Kennedy did not conspire in the death of Diem. However, there is also the exceedingly strange transcript of Diem's final phone conversation with Ambassador Lodge on the afternoon of the coup (Document 23), which carries the distinct impression that Diem is being abandoned by the U.S. Whether this represents Lodge's contribution, or JFK's wishes, is not apparent from the evidence available today
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter