12-07-2009, 06:10 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2009, 06:31 AM by Peter Lemkin.)
Mark Stapleton Wrote:I think Holdgren might have some interesting ideas. The planet is infested with human beings and it's unsustainable.
The average American has an ecological footprint 150 times that of the the average person in Bangledesh - [i.e. uses that much more resources, energy; creates that much more waste, toxics, CO2, global warming et al.]. Bangledesh has a pop. of 150 million and the USA a population of about 300 million. Mulitply the 300 million by the footprint size and you get an environmental use/pollution virtual population in the USA of 45,000,000,000* - making the USA the overpopulated country, by far...etc. So, eliminating or not producing one more American saves the environment the same degradation as the non-existance of 150 Bangledeshis...but most 'Western' eugencists would want to start forced birth control on the developing nations. A similar calculation could be done within developed nations - rich v. middle-class or poor and the same disproportionate footprint will be found. [i.e. getting rid of one very rich person saves the Planet the same effects as there not being some hundreds or thousands of poorer persons in the same country...[on the financial and financially-driven destruction of the Planet one ultra-rich person can 'equal' millions to tens of millions!] so the richer one is; the more 'advanced' (sic) their lifestyle; the more each one of them crowds the planet in terms of resource use and waste production by manifold those who are poor or choose to live a more sustainable life. I don't think anyone has yet proposed starting by eliminating the ultra rich - nor even in the wealthier countries. Such programs are always targeted at non-white and poor externally and internally - at those who do the least harm person for person. It is well known that in developed nations with high education and equality - especially for women, population numbers soon stabilize and then decrease. Italy, France, Czech Republic and many other European nations now have negative population growth. Sadly, the world cannot afford the current population at Western European standards [would take 5 Planets of resources - or more], but the above shows that the developed nations and wealthier people have disproportionately caused the environmental problems caused by population - not the more numerous poor. A fair, equitable, democratic and ecocentric solution has to be found - not a 'top-down' one. There are such fair proposals already advanced by some progressive environmental scientists**. Holdren is not on-board on these - quite the opposite, I fear.
* Double this when comparing to sub-Sahara Africa
**These are complex and I've not elaborated here, but could.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass

