03-06-2014, 05:03 PM
It's truly sad that you feel this is about winning and losing.... I've offered links and docs to the tips of the icebergs that are political/social/economic conspiracy throughout history....
The pattern is repeated over and over since mankind simply does not learn from its history.
Your assuming other people here do not know anything about history appears to me as the real problem, second only to your deep rooted belief that what we see is how it was/is.
I learned LONG ago that whatever is offered as the "explanation", especially in politics or intelligence is usually as far the reality of the purposes and objectives involved as can be.
The world of Counter Intelligence was deisgned to confuse those outside looking in... or make the explanations so reasonable and acceptable that they are regarded as the revealed truths.
In nearly every case I've studied regardling the workings of the SPONSORS - those who remain nameless or those so large and whose names are so well regarded that belief in their guilt - is ridiculed (Illuminate=UFOs)
Of course Watergate was not what it seemed to be... and it was not what the 1st, 2nd or even 50th layer of the onion revealed. That you obviously know this and yet cannot then apply that same understanding to other historical events like this thread's BOP explanation is what puzzles me most.
Everything offered here is for the collective intelligence of those interested in compiling them and giving them deep thought. Of determining cause and effect and in the hopes of being able to improve the human condition...
The pursuit of this knowledge led me back to the origins of ownership, societal purpose, and on thru history to find that our country's situation is a direct result of the influence of English Banking and the NEED for a centralized banking system...
Hamilton and Burr - while Hamilton was pushing for a "Federal Banking System" via his own banking interests Burr and ultimately the Rockefellers had other ideas:
Chase traces its history back to the founding of The Manhattan Company by Aaron Burr on September 1, 1799, in a house at 40 Wall Street:
After an epidemic of yellow fever in 1798, during which coffins had been sold by itinerant vendors on street corners, Aaron Burr established the Manhattan Company,
with the ostensible aim of bringing clean water to the city from the Bronx River but in fact designed as a front for the creation of New York's second bank, rivaling Alexander Hamilton's Bank of New York.
The Economist
Scott, I have focused on studying the history of wealth, power, politics and conspiracy... "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt
This is the man tha put Nelson R in charge of central and south American "cultural" relations, who put Donovan in charge of the OSS, who was directly connected to the elite of this country who ultimately gave "the people" as much distraction as possible while his SPONSORS bought up America. That you bring to this thread the belief that "the BOP was not designed to fail in its overt objective" is, aftera ll this, still naive.
If you would apply your deep watergate understanding to the BOP situation, I am sure the deep politics of the situation will become more and more clear to you.
Scott - I am truly sorry that I cannot express myself as clearly as I'd like in regards to the massive amount of evidence there is for conspiracy of purpose at every turn... in most every human heart... in most every human action...
all that differs is the magnitude... The "Tragedy of the Commons" is a concept used against us... if we are TOLD that any specific action is for the collective good of the "people" yet repeatedly we dfind that those telling us are in fact trying to usurp all the resources for themselves...
When are we going to learn and do something about it?
https://archive.org/details/TheDeclarati...dependence read aloud by JFK
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
The vehicle for changing this country's (or any sovereign nation - another interesting concept, what constitutes sovereignty) methods of leadership are included as a DIRECTIVE in our own Declaration Independence... The Founding Father's anticipated problems of the sort that now run our country... that ran the country within minutes of its birth... So yes Scott, I get a bit sideways when I am told in no uncertain terms that the BOP was about Communism... it was about economics and power... and you will find if you take the time to look, that most every action since the dawn of time is undertaken for those purposes.. and not the altruistic ones we are lead to believe...
2500 years ago Plato forwarns us about the nature of man... 5000 years ago the Hebrews and other slaves of the world experienced it... at least THEN slaves knew they were slaves...
Today? People are too busy watching Duck Dynasty and Dancing with the Stars to lift their heads up and take notice of their own comfortable slavery....
DJ
(btw Scott... while I write this to you, it is not only directed at you... there are MANY who over the years on these forums I've come to call friends and have enjoyed this type of interchange of ideas. When you put forth ideas backed by sound logic and evidence I will be the first to incorporate them into my understanding... in THIS CASE, the BOP, I feel you do not make your case. In terms of Watrergate, I am all ears... Nixon was creating his own inteligence apparatus. He, like JFK, was end-running the real power of this world. The CIA is just the guard dog. There is no "CIA" in the Military Industrial Congressional Complex... but you can be rest assured the MICC is holding the CIA leash, doesn't mean the dog never bites its master's hand and has to be punished from time to time.)
Profit: to gain an advantage or benefit
John Jay, the president of the ­ Continental Congress, thenfirst Chief Justice of the Supreme Court,and as he put it, "those who own the country ought to govern it".
Martin Wolf (one of the finest financial minds of the times)of the Financial Times. He writes that the "out-of-control financialsector is eating out the modern market economy from the inside, just as thelarva of the spider wasp eats out the host in which it has been laid".
http://www.alternet.org/visions/chomsky-us-poses-number-threats-future-humanity-our-youll-never-hear-about-it-our-free-press?page=0%2C4
"Every transaction has impacts on others which just aren'ttaken into account in a market transaction. Systemic risk is a big one."(Chomsky)
Garrett James Hardin (April 21, 1915 September 14, 2003)was an American ecologist who warned of the dangers of overpopulation. Hisexposition of the tragedy of the commons, in a 1968 paper,[1] called attentionto "the damage that innocent actions by individuals can inflict on theenvironment".[2] He is also known for Hardin's First Law of Human Ecology:"You cannot do only one thing", which expresses theinterconnectedness of every action.[3][
"tragedy of the commons" (Hardin)
The rebuttal to the invisible hand in population control isto be found in a scenario first sketched in a little-known pamphlet (6) in 1833by a mathematical amateur named William Forster Lloyd (1794-1852). We may wellcall it "the tragedy of the commons," using the word"tragedy" as the philosopher Whitehead used it (7): "The essenceof dramatic tragedy is not unhappiness. It resides in the solemnity of theremorseless working of things." He then goes on to say, "Thisinevitableness of destiny can only be illustrated in terms of human life byincidents which in fact involve unhappiness. For it is only by them that thefutility of escape can be made evident in the drama." http://www.sciencemag.org/content/162/3859/1243.full
Educationcan counteract the natural tendency to do the wrong thing, but the inexorablesuccession of generations requires that the basis for this knowledge beconstantly refreshed.
Unenlightened self-interest
In contrast to enlightened self-interest is simple greed or the conceptof "unenlightened self-interest," in which it is argued that whenmost or all persons act according to their own myopic selfishness, that thegroup suffers loss as a result of conflict, decreased efficiency andproductivity because of lack of cooperation, and the increased expense eachindividual pays for the protection of their own interests. If a typicalindividual in such a group is selected at random, it is not likely that thisperson will profit from such a group ethic.
Someindividuals might profit, in a material sense, from a philosophy ofgreed, but it is believed by proponents of enlightened self-interest that theseindividuals constitute a small minority and that the large majority of personscan expect to experience a net personal loss from a philosophy of simpleunenlightened selfishness.
Unenlightened self-interest can result in the tragedy of the commons.
-------------------------
Plato 425bc
According to this model, the principles of Athenian democracy (as itexisted in his day) are rejected as only a few are fit to rule. Instead ofrhetoric and persuasion, Plato says reason and wisdom should govern. As Platoputs it:
"Until philosophers rule askings or those who are now called kings and leading men genuinely andadequately philosophize, that is, until political power and philosophy entirelycoincide, while the many natures who at present pursue either one exclusivelyare forcibly prevented from doing so, cities will have no rest from evils,...nor, I think, will the human race." (Republic 473c-d)
Oligarchy is made up of asociety in which wealth is the criterion of merit and the wealthy are incontrol. In democracy, the state bears resemblance to ancient Athens withtraits such as equality of political opportunity and freedom for the individualto do as he likes. Democracy then degenerates into tyranny from the conflict ofrich and poor. It is characterized by an undisciplined society existing inchaos, where the tyrant rises as popular champion leading to the formation ofhis private army and the growth of oppression
-------------------------
Aristotle b. 384bc
The AIM of Man
Now, as there are many actions, arts, and sciences, their ends also aremany; the end of the medical art is health, that of shipbuilding a vessel, thatof strategy victory, that of economics wealth.
If, then, there is some end of the things we do, which we desire forits own sake (everything else being desired for the sake of this), and if we donot choose everything for the sake of something else (for at that rate theprocess would go on to infinity, so that our desire would be empty and vain),clearly this must be the good and the chief good. Will not the knowledge of it,then, have a great influence on life? Shall we not, like archers who have amark to aim at, be more likely to hit upon what is right?
The pattern is repeated over and over since mankind simply does not learn from its history.
Your assuming other people here do not know anything about history appears to me as the real problem, second only to your deep rooted belief that what we see is how it was/is.
I learned LONG ago that whatever is offered as the "explanation", especially in politics or intelligence is usually as far the reality of the purposes and objectives involved as can be.
The world of Counter Intelligence was deisgned to confuse those outside looking in... or make the explanations so reasonable and acceptable that they are regarded as the revealed truths.
In nearly every case I've studied regardling the workings of the SPONSORS - those who remain nameless or those so large and whose names are so well regarded that belief in their guilt - is ridiculed (Illuminate=UFOs)
Of course Watergate was not what it seemed to be... and it was not what the 1st, 2nd or even 50th layer of the onion revealed. That you obviously know this and yet cannot then apply that same understanding to other historical events like this thread's BOP explanation is what puzzles me most.
Everything offered here is for the collective intelligence of those interested in compiling them and giving them deep thought. Of determining cause and effect and in the hopes of being able to improve the human condition...
The pursuit of this knowledge led me back to the origins of ownership, societal purpose, and on thru history to find that our country's situation is a direct result of the influence of English Banking and the NEED for a centralized banking system...
Hamilton and Burr - while Hamilton was pushing for a "Federal Banking System" via his own banking interests Burr and ultimately the Rockefellers had other ideas:
Chase traces its history back to the founding of The Manhattan Company by Aaron Burr on September 1, 1799, in a house at 40 Wall Street:
After an epidemic of yellow fever in 1798, during which coffins had been sold by itinerant vendors on street corners, Aaron Burr established the Manhattan Company,
with the ostensible aim of bringing clean water to the city from the Bronx River but in fact designed as a front for the creation of New York's second bank, rivaling Alexander Hamilton's Bank of New York.
The Economist
Scott, I have focused on studying the history of wealth, power, politics and conspiracy... "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt
This is the man tha put Nelson R in charge of central and south American "cultural" relations, who put Donovan in charge of the OSS, who was directly connected to the elite of this country who ultimately gave "the people" as much distraction as possible while his SPONSORS bought up America. That you bring to this thread the belief that "the BOP was not designed to fail in its overt objective" is, aftera ll this, still naive.
If you would apply your deep watergate understanding to the BOP situation, I am sure the deep politics of the situation will become more and more clear to you.
Scott - I am truly sorry that I cannot express myself as clearly as I'd like in regards to the massive amount of evidence there is for conspiracy of purpose at every turn... in most every human heart... in most every human action...
all that differs is the magnitude... The "Tragedy of the Commons" is a concept used against us... if we are TOLD that any specific action is for the collective good of the "people" yet repeatedly we dfind that those telling us are in fact trying to usurp all the resources for themselves...
When are we going to learn and do something about it?
https://archive.org/details/TheDeclarati...dependence read aloud by JFK
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
The vehicle for changing this country's (or any sovereign nation - another interesting concept, what constitutes sovereignty) methods of leadership are included as a DIRECTIVE in our own Declaration Independence... The Founding Father's anticipated problems of the sort that now run our country... that ran the country within minutes of its birth... So yes Scott, I get a bit sideways when I am told in no uncertain terms that the BOP was about Communism... it was about economics and power... and you will find if you take the time to look, that most every action since the dawn of time is undertaken for those purposes.. and not the altruistic ones we are lead to believe...
2500 years ago Plato forwarns us about the nature of man... 5000 years ago the Hebrews and other slaves of the world experienced it... at least THEN slaves knew they were slaves...
Today? People are too busy watching Duck Dynasty and Dancing with the Stars to lift their heads up and take notice of their own comfortable slavery....
DJ
(btw Scott... while I write this to you, it is not only directed at you... there are MANY who over the years on these forums I've come to call friends and have enjoyed this type of interchange of ideas. When you put forth ideas backed by sound logic and evidence I will be the first to incorporate them into my understanding... in THIS CASE, the BOP, I feel you do not make your case. In terms of Watrergate, I am all ears... Nixon was creating his own inteligence apparatus. He, like JFK, was end-running the real power of this world. The CIA is just the guard dog. There is no "CIA" in the Military Industrial Congressional Complex... but you can be rest assured the MICC is holding the CIA leash, doesn't mean the dog never bites its master's hand and has to be punished from time to time.)
Profit: to gain an advantage or benefit
John Jay, the president of the ­ Continental Congress, thenfirst Chief Justice of the Supreme Court,and as he put it, "those who own the country ought to govern it".
Martin Wolf (one of the finest financial minds of the times)of the Financial Times. He writes that the "out-of-control financialsector is eating out the modern market economy from the inside, just as thelarva of the spider wasp eats out the host in which it has been laid".
http://www.alternet.org/visions/chomsky-us-poses-number-threats-future-humanity-our-youll-never-hear-about-it-our-free-press?page=0%2C4
"Every transaction has impacts on others which just aren'ttaken into account in a market transaction. Systemic risk is a big one."(Chomsky)
Garrett James Hardin (April 21, 1915 September 14, 2003)was an American ecologist who warned of the dangers of overpopulation. Hisexposition of the tragedy of the commons, in a 1968 paper,[1] called attentionto "the damage that innocent actions by individuals can inflict on theenvironment".[2] He is also known for Hardin's First Law of Human Ecology:"You cannot do only one thing", which expresses theinterconnectedness of every action.[3][
"tragedy of the commons" (Hardin)
The rebuttal to the invisible hand in population control isto be found in a scenario first sketched in a little-known pamphlet (6) in 1833by a mathematical amateur named William Forster Lloyd (1794-1852). We may wellcall it "the tragedy of the commons," using the word"tragedy" as the philosopher Whitehead used it (7): "The essenceof dramatic tragedy is not unhappiness. It resides in the solemnity of theremorseless working of things." He then goes on to say, "Thisinevitableness of destiny can only be illustrated in terms of human life byincidents which in fact involve unhappiness. For it is only by them that thefutility of escape can be made evident in the drama." http://www.sciencemag.org/content/162/3859/1243.full
Educationcan counteract the natural tendency to do the wrong thing, but the inexorablesuccession of generations requires that the basis for this knowledge beconstantly refreshed.
Unenlightened self-interest
In contrast to enlightened self-interest is simple greed or the conceptof "unenlightened self-interest," in which it is argued that whenmost or all persons act according to their own myopic selfishness, that thegroup suffers loss as a result of conflict, decreased efficiency andproductivity because of lack of cooperation, and the increased expense eachindividual pays for the protection of their own interests. If a typicalindividual in such a group is selected at random, it is not likely that thisperson will profit from such a group ethic.
Someindividuals might profit, in a material sense, from a philosophy ofgreed, but it is believed by proponents of enlightened self-interest that theseindividuals constitute a small minority and that the large majority of personscan expect to experience a net personal loss from a philosophy of simpleunenlightened selfishness.
Unenlightened self-interest can result in the tragedy of the commons.
-------------------------
Plato 425bc
According to this model, the principles of Athenian democracy (as itexisted in his day) are rejected as only a few are fit to rule. Instead ofrhetoric and persuasion, Plato says reason and wisdom should govern. As Platoputs it:
"Until philosophers rule askings or those who are now called kings and leading men genuinely andadequately philosophize, that is, until political power and philosophy entirelycoincide, while the many natures who at present pursue either one exclusivelyare forcibly prevented from doing so, cities will have no rest from evils,...nor, I think, will the human race." (Republic 473c-d)
Oligarchy is made up of asociety in which wealth is the criterion of merit and the wealthy are incontrol. In democracy, the state bears resemblance to ancient Athens withtraits such as equality of political opportunity and freedom for the individualto do as he likes. Democracy then degenerates into tyranny from the conflict ofrich and poor. It is characterized by an undisciplined society existing inchaos, where the tyrant rises as popular champion leading to the formation ofhis private army and the growth of oppression
-------------------------
Aristotle b. 384bc
The AIM of Man
Now, as there are many actions, arts, and sciences, their ends also aremany; the end of the medical art is health, that of shipbuilding a vessel, thatof strategy victory, that of economics wealth.
If, then, there is some end of the things we do, which we desire forits own sake (everything else being desired for the sake of this), and if we donot choose everything for the sake of something else (for at that rate theprocess would go on to infinity, so that our desire would be empty and vain),clearly this must be the good and the chief good. Will not the knowledge of it,then, have a great influence on life? Shall we not, like archers who have amark to aim at, be more likely to hit upon what is right?
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter