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“Big Brother” may end up being very, very small
#31
Adele Edisen Wrote:Magda,

Boy! Were you fast with that one! I was still editing out all my typos when you posted that reference. Am so glad all that has been saved. Thank you.

Adele
That one is such a great thread. I was just having another read of it and there is so many interesting things in there. I must try and get back to what Linda and Tosh were looking at re Seiwell etc.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx

"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.

“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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#32
Adele Edisen Wrote:
Tracy Riddle Wrote:Well, if you're looking for the mainstream scientific viewpoint, you can read the Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin

"Although the abiogenic hypothesis was accepted by many geologists in the former Soviet Union, it fell out of favor at the end of the 20th century because it never made any useful prediction for the discovery of oil deposits.[SUP][1][/SUP]"

Tracy,

Do not be so arrogant, please. Wikipedia is not a scientific journal and does not speak for the scientific community or for any part of it. In fact, it's not even a very good encyclopedia which it tries to pretend to be.
The US National Academy of Science is the most prestigious scientific organization in this country. It does not publish garbage or 'popular mainstream science' by its members. The internet is a good source for
valid imformation AND for idiotic opinions. Please be aware of that.

In science the only thing that really counts is evidence. This not a joking matter.

You should read the article authored by Dr. J.F. Kenney again and try to understand it.

Adele

Adele, I didn't intend to sound arrogant and I'm sorry if I did. I studied this subject for several years during the last decade, and I've heard the arguments in favor of abiotic oil. As a scientist, you must realize that if the old giant oil fields around the world (Texas, Pennsylvania, Mexico, etc) are not refilling with oil, then that is a serious blow against the theory. Occasionally earthquakes or other geological shifts can cause an undiscovered oil field to leak into an existing field nearby. This can make it appear that the field is filling back up.

Again I ask, why are they turning to expensive, energy-intensive, polluting alternatives like tar sands, shale oil and shale gas, poisoning the earth's groundwater (and oil executives rely on drinking water too) if abiotic oil is true?
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#33
David G, here is a video of VP Nixon in a motorcade in 1960 (starting around 2:00). You'll notice people in open windows in tall buildings. So obviously it was not SOP to have them all shut.

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#34
with this view.
Prouty Rocks.....
How does one thank someone that played a large part in opening my eyes, or plucking the blinders from my view?

By Spreading the Words he wrote far and wide....

Thanks all, I am glad I found the right article and further glad some enjoyed it.
Worth review I think.
Jim

And again as ALWAYS thank You Adele,
The hard science wins. Good material so I can decide about this issue for myself.
Read not to contradict and confute;
nor to believe and take for granted;
nor to find talk and discourse;
but to weigh and consider.
FRANCIS BACON
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#35
Tracy Riddle Wrote:David G, here is a video of VP Nixon in a motorcade in 1960 (starting around 2:00). You'll notice people in open windows in tall buildings. So obviously it was not SOP to have them all shut.

Tracy, I don't doubt this. But the answer remains the same as noted in post no. 27 above.
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge.
Carl Jung - Aion (1951). CW 9, Part II: P.14
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#36
Tracy said
Quote:Adele, I didn't intend to sound arrogant and I'm sorry if I did. I studied this subject for several years during the last decade, and I've heard the arguments in favor of abiotic oil. As a scientist, you must realize that if the old giant oil fields around the world (Texas, Pennsylvania, Mexico, etc) are not refilling with oil, then that is a serious blow against the theory. Occasionally earthquakes or other geological shifts can cause an undiscovered oil field to leak into an existing field nearby. This can make it appear that the field is filling back up.

Again I ask, why are they turning to expensive, energy-intensive, polluting alternatives like tar sands, shale oil and shale gas, poisoning the earth's groundwater (and oil executives rely on drinking water too) if abiotic oil is true?

Tracy, thank you very much for telling me that.

I know we are both concerned with the question of where and how is oil produced in the earth. Is it from fossil sources or from non-biotic origins? If oil can be found, and it has been found, at levels below the levels where living organisms came into existence, then it has had to be manufactured from some other materials besides the elements found in biological systems. The main atomic elements found im biological systems are carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus, and sulfur, the latter two in lesser amounts. Since, according to the Laws of Thermodfynamics, matter cannot be destroyed nor created anew, but can only be changed in form, much of the oil produced does not contain much if any of these elements. Oxygen is found in compounds of rocks, such as calcium carbonate, CaCO3 (subscript 3), and may be found dissolved in some oils. Petroleum is in the vaious forms of hydrocarbons (containing only hydrogen and carbon), and some of these may even be in solid form as tars.

As for the argument that oil fields have not refilled, that may not be totally true. In a previous forum I attended, I had some references to this information. People have noted that previously dried up oil wells had begun to refill, although not neccessarily as productive as before. And, by digging deeper in the same dried up oil fields, and past the fossil levels, they have found their wells to be productrive. Tectonic shifts and earthquakes cannot explaiin everyone of these observations.

The alternative sources of oil in sands, shalem etc,, are more accessible, but, as you said, more expensive in processing for petroleum. The air, water, soil, etc., pollution from utilizing petroleum for our energy needs may force us to rely on wind, solar, and other less harmful sources of energy. Unfortunately, the oil companies are opposed to these alternative methods, because they can make oil profitable for their companies via corporate controls over government laws and advertising to the public. This is a capitalistic economy which does not answer to the perople's needs and wants, and is not concerned with efficiency and conservation of effort and expenditure.

Adele
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#37
Tracy,

Here is one refeence o old oil wells refilliog.

http://rense.com/general63/refil.htm
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#38
Article on refilled oil wells.

Please also read this short artcle on Swedish research: http://www.viewzone.com/abioticoilx.html

http://rense.com/general63/refil.htm

Oil Fields Are Refilling...
Naturally - Sometimes Rapidly
There Are More Oil Seeps Than All The Tankers On Earth
By Robert Cooke
Staff Writer - Newsday.com
4-10-5


Deep underwater, and deeper underground, scientists see surprising hints that gas and oil deposits can be replenished, filling up again, sometimes rapidly.

Although it sounds too good to be true, increasing evidence from the Gulf of Mexico suggests that some old oil fields are being refilled by petroleum surging up from deep below, scientists report. That may mean that current estimates of oil and gas abundance are far too low.

Recent measurements in a major oil field show "that the fluids were changing over time; that very light oil and gas were being injected from below, even as the producing [oil pumping] was going on," said chemical oceanographer Mahlon "Chuck" Kennicutt. "They are refilling as we speak. But whether this is a worldwide phenomenon, we don't know."

Also not known, Kennicutt said, is whether the injection of new oil from deeper strata is of any economic significance, whether there will be enough to be exploitable. The discovery was unexpected, and it is still "somewhat controversial" within the oil industry.

Kennicutt, a faculty member at Texas A&M University, said it is now clear that gas and oil are coming into the known reservoirs very rapidly in terms of geologic time. The inflow of new gas, and some oil, has been detectable in as little as three to 10 years. In the past, it was not suspected that oil fields can refill because it was assumed the oil formed in place, or nearby, rather than far below.

According to marine geologist Harry Roberts, at Louisiana State University, "petroleum geologists don't accept it as a general phenomenon because it doesn't happen in most reservoirs. But in this case, it does seem to be happening. You have a very leaky fault system that does allow it to migrate in. It's directly connected to an oil and gas generating system at great depth."

What the scientists suspect is that very old petroleum -- formed tens of millions of years ago -- has continued migrating up into reservoirs that oil companies have been exploiting for years. But no one had expected that depleted oil fields might refill themselves.

Now, if it is found that gas and oil are coming up in significant amounts, and if the same is occurring in oil fields around the globe, then a lot more fuel than anyone expected could become available eventually. It hints that the world may not, in fact, be running out of petroleum.

"No one has been more astonished by the potential implications of our work than myself," said analytic chemist Jean Whelan, at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, in Massachusetts. "There already appears to be a large body of evidence consistent with ... oil and gas generation and migration on very short time scales in many areas globally," she wrote in the journal Sea Technology.

"Almost equally surprising," she added, is that "there seem to be no compelling arguments refuting the existence of these rapid, dynamic migration processes."

The first sketchy evidence of this emerged in 1984, when Kennicutt and colleagues from Texas A&M University were in the Gulf of Mexico trying to understand a phenomenon called "seeps," areas on the seafloor where sometimes large amounts of oil and gas escape through natural fissures.

"Our first discovery was with trawls. We knew it was an area of massive seepage, and we expected that the oil seeps would poison everything around" the site. But they found just the opposite.

"On the first trawl, we brought up over two tons of stuff. We had a tough time getting the nets back on board because they were so full" of very odd-looking sea.floor creatures, Kennicutt said. "They were long strawlike things that turned out to be tube worms.

"The clams were the first thing I noticed," he added. "They were pretty big, like the size of your hand, and it was obvious they had red blood inside, which is unusual. And these long tubes -- 3, 4 and 5 feet long -- we didn't know what they were, but they started bleeding red fluid, too. We didn't know what to make of it."

The biologists they consulted did know what to make of it. "The experts immediately recognized them as chemo-synthetic communities," creatures that get their energy from hydrocarbons -- oil and gas -- rather than from ordinary foods. So these animals are very much like, but still different from, recently discovered creatures living near very hot seafloor vent sites in the Pacific, Atlantic and other oceans.

The difference, Kennicutt said, is that the animals living around cold seeps live on methane and oil, while the creatures growing near hot water vents exploit sulfur compounds in the hot water.

The discovery of abundant life where scientists expected a deserted seafloor also suggested that the seeps are a long-duration phenomenon. Indeed, the clams are thought to be about 100 years old, and the tube worms may live as long as 600 years, or more, Kennicutt said.

The surprises kept pouring in as the researchers explored further and in more detail using research submarines. In some areas, the methane-metabolizing organisms even build up structures that resemble coral reefs.

It has long been known by geologists and oil industry workers that seeps exist. In Southern California, for example, there are seeps near Santa Barbara, at a geologic feature called Coal Oil Point. And, Roberts said, it's clear that "the Gulf of Mexico leaks like a sieve. You can't take a submarine dive without running into an oil or gas seep. And on a calm day, you can't take a boat ride without seeing gigantic oil slicks" on the sea surface.

Roberts added that natural seepage in places like the Gulf of Mexico "far exceeds anything that gets spilled" by oil tankers and other sources.

"The results of this have been a big surprise for me," said Whelan. "I never would have expected that the gas is moving up so quickly and what a huge effect it has on the whole system."

Although the oil industry hasn't shown great enthusiasm for the idea -- arguing that the upward migration is too slow and too uncommon to do much good -- the search for new oil and gas supplies already has been affected, Whelan and Kennicutt said. Now, companies scan the sea surface for signs of oil slicks that might point to new deposits.

"People are using airplane surveys for the slicks and are doing water column fluorescence measurements looking for the oil," Whelan said. "They're looking for the sources of the seeps and trying to hook that into the seismic evidence" normally used in searching for buried oil.

Similar research on known oil basins in the North Sea is also under way, and "that oil is very interesting. There are absolutely marvelous pictures of coral reefs which formed from seepage [of gas] from North Sea reservoirs," Whelan said.

Analysis of the ancient oil that seems to be coming up from deep below in the Gulf of Mexico suggests that the flow of new oil "is coming from deeper, hotter formations" and is not simply a lateral inflow from the old deposits that surround existing oil fields, she said. The chemical composition of the migrating oil also indicates it is being driven upward and is being altered by highly pressurized gases squeezing up from below.

This upwelling phenomenon, Whelan noted, fits into a classic analysis of the world's oil and gas done years ago by geochemist-geologist John Hunt. He suggested that less than 1 percent of the oil that is generated at depth ever makes it into exploitable reservoirs. About 40 percent of the oil and gas remains hidden, spread out in the tiny pores and fissures of deep sedimentary rock formations.

And "the remaining 60 percent," Whelan said, "leaks upward and out of the sediment" via the numerous seeps that occur globally.

Also, the idea that dynamic migration of oil and gas is occurring implies that new supplies "are not only charging some reservoirs at the present time, but that a huge fraction of total oil and gas must be episodically or continuously bypassing reservoirs completely and seeping from surface sediments on a relatively large scale," Whelan explained.

So far, measurements involving biological and geological analysis, plus satellite images, "show widespread and pervasive leakage over the entire northern slope of the Gulf of Mexico," she added.

"For example, Ian MacDonald at Texas A&M has published some remarkable satellite photographs of oil slicks which go for miles in the Gulf of Mexico in areas where no oil production is occurring." Before this research in oil basins began, she added, "changes in reservoired oils were not suspected, so no reliable data exists on how widespread the phenomenon might be in the Gulf Coast or elsewhere."

The researchers, especially the Texas team, have been working on this subject for almost 15 years in collaboration with oil industry experts and various university scientists. Their first focus was on the zone called South Eugene Island block 330, which is 150 miles south of New Orleans. It is known as one of the most productive oil and gas fields in the world. The block lies in water more than 300 feet deep.

As a test, the researchers attempted to drill down into a known fault zone that was thought to be a natural conduit for new petroleum. The drilling was paid for by the U.S. Department of Energy.

Whelan recalled that as the drill dug deeper and deeper, the project seemed to be succeeding, but then it abruptly ended in failure. "We were able to produce only a small amount of oil before the fault closed, like a giant straw," probably because reducing the pressure there allowed the fissure to collapse.

In addition to the drilling effort and the inspection of seeps, Whelan and her colleagues reported that three-dimensional seismic profiles of the underground reservoirs commonly show giant gas plumes coming from depth and disrupting sediments all the way to the surface.

This also shows that in an area west of the South Eugene Island area, a giant gas plume originates from beneath salt about 15,000 feet down and then disrupts the sediment layers all the way to the surface. The surface expression of this plume is very large -- about 1,500 feet in diameter. One surprise, Whelan said, was that the gas plume seems to exist outside of faults, the ground fractures, which at present are the main targets of oil exploration.

It is suspected that the process of upward migration of petroleum is driven by natural gas that is being continually produced both by deeply buried bacteria and from oil being broken down in the deeper, hotter layers of sediment. The pressures and heat at great depth are thought to be increasing because the ground is sinking -- subsiding -- as a result of new sediments piling up on top. The site is part of the huge delta formed over thousands of years by the southward flow of the massive Mississippi River. Like other major deltas, the Mississippi's outflow structure is continually being built from sands, muds and silts washed off the continent.

Analysis of the oil being driven into the reservoirs suggests they were created during the so-called Jurassic and Early Cretaceous periods (100 million to 150 million years ago), even before the existing basin itself was formed. This means the source rock is buried and remains invisible to seismic imaging beneath layers of salt.

In studying so-called biomarkers in the oil, Whelan said, it was concluded that the oil is closely related to other very old oils, implying that it "was probably generated very early and then remained trapped at depth until recently." And, she added, other analyses "show that this oil must have remained trapped at depths and temperatures much greater than those of the present-day producing reservoirs."

At great depth, where the heat and pressure are high enough, she explained, methane is produced by oil being "cracked," and production of gas "is able to cause sufficient pressure to periodically open the fracture system and allow upward fluid flow of methane, with entrapment of oil in its path."

Copyright © 2002, Newsday, Inc.
http://www.newsday.com/features/ny-feat-hcov0416.story
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