Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis

[Tony Szamboti]

You don't need thermocouples measuring the temperature of the steel during the fire. The steel itself provides a metallurgical record and the temperature it reached can be determined afterward. However, you need the steel afterward to do that. NIST got only 0.25 to 0.50% of the steel from the towers but what they got showed no metallurgical evidence of having reached temperatures where it even lost any strength.

Essentially, there is no evidence whatsoever that fire took those buildings down.

Your own post / data shows that we NIST either did not test for the temps of all the core steel in the region of the plane strikes and fires or didn't collect the steel from this region and couldn't test it. Reporting a few bits of temp data assuming they could make a reliable assessment does not prove what the temps may have been... all it proves is that NIST reported some data on 0.25%-.05% of the steel.

Of course NIST wanted us to believe it was sagging trusses and so why would they present temp data about the core? Or perhaps presenting just a few bits of data which does not conflict with their thesis.... cherry picking explains that they didn't report data that they may have had.

The steel did not *disappear* as a result of the collapse. One has to wonder why more of the steel in the strike zones was not saved and analyzed. Was it because it showed heat damage or as Tony would have us believe sings of explosives perhaps?

Jeffrey, it certainly wasn't hot trusses that caused the collapse as they couldn't do what NIST said (pull in the perimeter columns) even at 700 degrees C, and the likelihood of the core columns being at high temperatures after an hour is slim to none due to their interconnectivity and bulk.

I think the core columns showed evidence of some type of devices having been used on them (either extreme heat, much hotter than fires could produce, or explosives) and that is why most of it was not saved. This isn't hard to figure out and it is certainly evidence of a cover-up.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Jeffrey, it certainly wasn't hot trusses that caused the collapse as they couldn't do what NIST said (pull in the perimeter columns) even at 700 degrees C, and the likelihood of the core columns being at high temperatures after an hour is slim to none due to their interconnectivity and bulk.

I think the core columns showed evidence of some type of devices having been used on them (either extreme heat, much hotter than fires could produce, or explosives) and that is why most of it was not saved. This isn't hard to figure out and it is certainly evidence of a cover-up.

There are obviously areas of missing data... temps being one, how many columns were destroyed or compromised by the plane strike another, how much of the core bracing in the plane strike zone another, how much fire protection was removed by the plane slamming through the core region, how much fuel from the plane made it into the tower and where did it end up (presumably the south side because of momentum), what part of the frame was affected by the heat... connections, bracing... how much elongation / warping from heat was taking place. The situation was chaotic and dynamic and three dimensions and the processes worked over an hour and a half in 1wtc.

We do know that heat weakens steel, causes it to distort and this could shear bolts and fail connections. The steel does not have to melt for the frames performance to drop below spec... locally and then cause load redistribution and cascading structural failures inside the core eroding the axial capacity over time. The process was progressive and dynamic. To clearly model this transducers and more data would be required. Yet we do see some pre release movements indicating that the structure within the upper section was under sever stress and much of it has failed. Runaway progressive failure show failures at an increasing rate until the system completely fails catastrophically and in an instant... the so call "rapid onset" that Gage refers to. This is when the system passes from stable and able to support loads to unstable... and is a well understood phenomena.

There is adequate data to strongly suggest a natural (heat related) runaway progression of failure within the core while there is no data to suggest that the process was one of placed devices. And this does not consider that said devices would have had to withstand plane impacts and fires for 1.5 hrs before being triggered by some mysterious mechanism.

"Boss, are we ready to hit the red button and blow the tops yet?"

[Tony Szamboti]

There is adequate data to strongly suggest a natural (heat related) runaway progression of failure within the core while there is no data to suggest that the process was one of placed devices. And this does not consider that said devices would have had to withstand plane impacts and fires for 1.5 hrs before being triggered by some mysterious mechanism.

There is not adequate data to show heat related runaway progression. I have shown you many times that the core columns would have had to reach extreme temperatures of somewhere around 650 degrees C for a collapse to just start let alone progress the way it did with the rapid horizontal propagation and vertical descent observed.

You are fooling yourself if you believe heat caused it and that they are just covering up design flaws.

[Jeffrey Orling]

There is adequate data to strongly suggest a natural (heat related) runaway progression of failure within the core while there is no data to suggest that the process was one of placed devices. And this does not consider that said devices would have had to withstand plane impacts and fires for 1.5 hrs before being triggered by some mysterious mechanism.

There is not adequate data to show heat related runaway progression. I have shown you many times that the core columns would have had to reach extreme temperatures of somewhere around 650 degrees C for a collapse to just start let alone progress the way it did with the rapid horizontal propagation and vertical descent observed.

You are fooling yourself if you believe heat caused it and that they are just covering up design flaws.

There are reports of temps exceeding 1000°. I find that credible but obviously rely on sources I read online. The building movements suggest a progressive cascading failure. We don't see any signs of explosives from the core... or any evidence of other devices in any of the steel recovered. You are projecting what you want to see.

This discussion has reached a dead end.

[Magda Hassan]

This discussion has reached a dead end.

Yep. I think so too. Thank you for Lauren for starting this thread. And thank you Jeffrey and Tony for your participation and contributions. Many things have been covered many things learned. But I think it has reached the end of any further fruitful discussion. I will now lock this thread.