The Sound of Silence

[Kate Story]

[quote=David Guyatt;5242
I agree, Kate, at least to a certain extent. It is true, at least I think it is true, that Christianity actually is misnamed and should be called Paul-anity. And I agree that religion has very largely become a curse in that it seeks to bind and imprison it's followers thoughts and beliefs when it should be setting them free. However, I disagree on your blanket cynicism of religion per se, although I think I well understand where you are coming from in saying this and why.

But not everything is black in perpetuity.

On Mystery Schools I would say that they have their mysteries for the very understandable reason that beholding mysteries is something that the majority of people are not able to, nor wish to, accomplish. For example, the great secret of the Greek mystery schools was openly chiseled into the stone lintel above the entrance door of their temples for all to see (and thus ignore in their multitudes): "Gnothi Seaton". Check it out. The Upanishads also have their own version of Gnothi Seaton. Others too. Or as Sir Francis Bacon once said: "why feed a donkey lettuce when nettles will do?" Meaning, in other words that not everyone wants or even likes lettuce, and if given it finds it hard to digest.[/quote]

I wasn't trying to use a blanket of cynicism and although everything is not black in perpetuity, neither is everything black OR white. I firmly believe the people with good hearts and intentions would be the same with or without religion. The good or evil in mankind comes from within and we each make the discision what we choose for ourselves. I believe in an evil force and I also believe with all my heart in a good force. I do not know what/who or why that force is or where it comes from. I do know it is not the 'deities' presented in any holy book. If I had to attribute any of them to a supernatural being, it would have to be the evil side.

All religious systems enslave the mind. Certain things are demanded, certain things must be believed, certain things must be done, and anyone who becomes the subject or servant of this superstition must give up all idea of individuality or hope of intellectual growth and progress. The dark ages proved that beyond a doubt. We must all become sheep in one flock. Group think and marching lock step due to some manmade dogma is suicide for one's independence and self worth. The bible teaches the best we can do is "filthy rags in the sight of God". What decent mortal parent would teach something so hateful to their child?

The Arab world is muslim. Israel is jewish. America is considered christian of one sect or another. We have been taught to police one another. If one fails to fall in line with the leading accepted religion of their own culture, they are looked upon as an infidel, a heathen or a dog. Each can clearly point out the faults and errors of all other religions but each is just as sure as the other their god is the only god. I have known many people who really don't care for religion at all but go along just to get along with family and society. Some do it for business purposes. Apparently a 'religious' businessman is a better man! That should not be. Where is the freedom in that when one feels forced to live a lie just to live in peace? Not only do they waste much of their precious lives but continue to pass it along to the next generation. If the day comes when the world if forced by threat of death into a one world religion, then it will become painfully clear how dangerous religion truly is. It should have remained clear after the crusades and inquisitions that both the catholics and then the protestants leveled against all resistors. It is true that the only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history. The horrid mess and slaughter that is about to boil over in Palestine at this very moment is due to religious doctrine and pitting one god against another. The US christians have been taught, since Cyrus Scofield came along, that the bible says we must bless and pray for the Jews or we will reap the curse of god. To that I shout a hardy BULLSHIT and will hush...for now.

[Kate Story]

Does any one here recall a BBC tv series from the 1980's called 'A Very Peculiar Practice'?

Magda, I have never heard of this series but am interested if you find where I can obtain it.

\

I saw it on tv when it was on the first time. Unfortunately it is not available in Australia in DVD format for some reason so I am relying on 20 year old memory. The general outline is of a provincial British university and there is one department there conducting very strange secret experiments using amongst other things using low frequency sound waves. It was not a documentary but a black comedy.

I'll try later and see if there is a Torrent site that has it.

[Kate Story]

F-E-A-R[/B]

Be nice if you'd post your scholars and scroll translators (whoever in the hell, they are) their cites for your above. Ya wanna sell something other than opinion, provide the goods.

Tnx,
David Healy

John Strugnell. Chief Scroll Editor for over 30 years.
Entire article..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Strugnell
Strugnell was removed from his editorial post on the Scrolls project in 1990 after critics charged that he was moving too slowly in publishing them and he gave an interview to Ha'aretz saying that Judaism was a "horrible religion" which "should not exist".[4] The removal of Strugnell from his editorial post ended the more than three-decade blockade that he and other Harvard-educated scholars, such as Notre Dame's Eugene Ulrich, had maintained to keep other scholars from accessing the scrolls.[5]
The more than 30-year blockade on the publication of the scrolls effected by Strugnell and other members of Harvard's academic community was broken by the combined efforts of Hershel Shanks of the Biblical Archaelogy Review (who had personally waged a 15-year campaign to release the scrolls) and David Ben Zion Wacholder of Hebrew Union College, along with his student, Martin Abegg, who published the first facsimile of the suppressed scrolls in 1991.[6]
In the interview, Strugnell insisted Judaism was "a Christian heresy, and we deal with our heretics in different ways. You are a phenomenon that we haven't managed to convert -- and we should have managed."[4] There was immediate condemnation of his comments, including an editorial in the New York Times. He was removed from his position as editor-in-chief, and he was forced to take early retirement on medical grounds at Harvard.[2]

Strugnell later claimed he was struggling with alcoholism and manic depression. Alcoholism seemed to go with the territory of DSS translators.

Jozef Milik. Original DSS translator and catholic priest. He later left the church, married and overcame a drinking problem.

By Robert Feather
This article is a brief examination of the nature and historical roots of the Qumran community that lived and worked on the western shore of the Dead Sea around 150 BCE to 68 CE and the connections that may be discerned between it and the preaching of John the Baptist, the ministry of Jesus, and the origins of Christianity. It looks through the eyes of scholars like Jozef Milik, one of the first to discover the nature of the Dead Sea Scrolls and to analyse them in depth, back in the 1950s, and the author's analysis of the latest research now that translations of most of the Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered near Qumran, have been officially published.
My previous book The Mystery of the Copper Scroll of Qumran,1 dealt with aspects of the Dead Sea Scrolls and, more particularly, one of the scrolls that had been engraved on copper by the strange community of Essenes that inhabited Qumran. As a trained metallurgist, the use of copper by a devout Jewish sect, living by the Dead Sea around the first century BCE, had aroused my curiosity especially as the Hebrew text seemed to be a list of buried treasures that apparently had never been found (see New Dawn No. 80, September-October 2003).
For my next book I had planned to take a closer look at the Qumran community's beliefs and way of life, examining how these may have influenced the beginnings of Christianity and its emergence as a daughter religion of Judaism. However, while discussing the project with Jozef Milik, one of the scholars who originally worked on deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls back in the early 1950s, my research took a strange and totally unexpected twist. Jozef Milik had been the leader of the team of translators based at the École Biblique in East Jerusalem; he had also been, at that time, an ordained Catholic priest.
What Monsieur Milik revealed to me, in the course of many intriguing conversations he and I shared about the Essene community, inspired me to write a new book and informs a substantial part of it.
The main thrust of the current search, however, was the nature of the people who lived at Qumran between, perhaps, 150 BCE and 68 CE, when their settlement was destroyed by the Romans, the secrets they kept, their relationship to the earliest followers of Jesus, and the incredible revelations of Monsieur Milik.
It was not until my third visit, in October 1999, when I returned to present him with a copy of my book on one of the Dead Sea Scrolls, that Jozef Milik started to talk more freely about his early life and work, volunteered his date of birth as March 24, 1922, and told me why he had left the Catholic Church. Ostensibly it was to marry his rather delightful wife, Yolanta, née Zaluska, but there were other reasons, reasons connected with what he had found and interpreted in the scrolls of the Dead Sea.
Two hours into our conversation he quietly and almost casually spoke of certain events near Qumran. It was one of those nerve tingling moments; my mind reeled with the impact of what he was saying.
Those dramatic words of Jozef Milik started me on a journey of discovery to determine how the circumstances at the time of Jesus might confirm or disprove his revelation. It was a quest that was to take me from the cold dampness of a Parisian autumn day to the remote dryness of Egypt, to the holy places of Jerusalem, to an offshore haven on the Isle of Man, to catacombs in Rome, to Washington and New York, to a Gothic building in Germany, and back to the barren shores of the Dead Sea in Israel.
As my journeys and investigations progressed, it became increasingly clear that something extraordinary, as yet not revealed, may have occurred at or near to Qumran, and there were others who were party to this knowledge but were not keen for the evidence to become public.
Entire article:http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/wher...-come-from

Robert Feathers book The Secret Initiation of Jesus at Qumram is a must read. He collaborated with Milik on the contents of the book.

There is much more on the translators but I am pressed for time at the moment but will get it out ASAP.

[Magda Hassan]

Barbara Theiring is a local DSS scholar who has written extensively on the interpretation of the DSS. She makes a far better case for real history than does the bible or church.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jesus-Man-Interp...0552139505

[Kate Story]

Barbara Theiring is a local DSS scholar who has written extensively on the interpretation of the DSS. She makes a far better case for real history than does the bible or church.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jesus-Man-Interp...0552139505

I believe a lot of her work can still be found on scribd.com. I think she was another maverick as was John Allegro who is becoming more vindicated as more of the scrolls are being published. Sex, drugs and ancient rock n roll! People never change.

I agree with much of Theiring's opinions but anything contrary to the rubbish that has been handed down by the church is kept as quiet as possible. A trillion dollar per year industry doesn't go away overnight but now there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

[David Healy]

Barbara Theiring is a local DSS scholar who has written extensively on the interpretation of the DSS. She makes a far better case for real history than does the bible or church.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jesus-Man-Interp...0552139505

I believe a lot of her work can still be found on scribd.com. I think she was another maverick as was John Allegro who is becoming more vindicated as more of the scrolls are being published. Sex, drugs and ancient rock n roll! People never change.

I agree with much of Theiring's opinions but anything contrary to the rubbish that has been handed down by the church is kept as quiet as possible. A trillion dollar per year industry doesn't go away overnight but now there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

just so we understand who we;re talking about and the other side of the story (and what appears to be peer review)....

Barbara Thiering
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Barbara Thiering (born 1930) is an Australian nonfiction writer, historian, and Biblical exegete specializing in the origins of the early Christian Church. In books and journal articles, she challenges Christian orthodoxy, drawing on claimed new evidence that gives alternative answers to its supernatural beliefs. Her analysis has been rejected by many scholars in the field.

From her speciality, studying the Dead Sea Scrolls, their semiotics, and their hermeneutics, she has propounded a theory arguing that the miracles, including the Turning water into wine, the Virgin Birth, Healing a man at a distance, the man who had been thirty-eight years at the pool, and the Resurrection, among others, did not actually occur (as miracles), as Christians believe, nor were they legends, as some skeptics hold, but were "deliberately constructed myths"[1] concealing (yet, to certain initiates, relating) esoteric historic events. She alleges that they never actually happened (that is, that the events they chronicle were not at all miraculous), as the authors of the Gospels knew. They wrote, according to the methods of pesher, which she discovers in the scrolls, on two levels. For the “babes in Christ,” there were apparent miracles, but the knowledge of exact meanings held by the highly educated members of gnostic schools gave a real history, of what Jesus actually did.

Born in Sydney, Australia, Thiering graduated in 1952 from Sydney University with first class honours in modern languages, was a high school teacher of languages for several years, and then, while caring for her three young children, continued study and research privately. She obtained an external B.D. degree from the University of London, a M.Th. degree from Melbourne College of Divinity, and a Ph.D. degree from Sydney University in 1973.

As a consequence of her research publications in academic journals, she was invited to lecture at Sydney University, at first in the Department of Semitic Studies, then in the School of Divinity (now the Department of Religious Studies) where she continued until her retirement. During this time she was a member of the Board of Studies in Divinity and the Board of Continuing Education, and served for twelve years as a lay member of the NSW Equal Opportunity Tribunal. When her work became known in the USA, she was made a Fellow of the Jesus Seminar.

In 1990 a documentary film about her research, Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls, was shown by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

Dr. Thiering's book: Jesus the Man has recently been re-published.
Contents

Academic Reception of her Work

While Thiering's thesis attracted some controversy in the media when Jesus the Man was published in 1990, her ideas have not received acceptance by her academic peers. In a response to a letter Thiering wrote to The New York Review of Books, objecting to a review by Geza Vermes, Vermes gave his personal estimation of the academic reaction to her work:

"Professor Barbara Thiering's reinterpretation of the New Testament, in which the married, divorced, and remarried Jesus, father of four, becomes the "Wicked Priest" of the Dead Sea Scrolls, has made no impact on learned opinion. Scroll scholars and New Testament experts alike have found the basis of the new theory, Thiering's use of the so-called "pesher technique", without substance."

(The New York Review of Books, December 1st, 1994)

In 1993 Nicholas Thomas Wright, now Bishop of Durham, wrote:[2]

It is safe to say that no serious scholar has given this elaborate and fantastic theory any credence whatsoever. It is nearly ten years since it was published; the scholarly world has been able to take a good look at it: and the results are totally negative.


Historian Dr. C.B. Forbes from the Department of Ancient History of Macquarie University says "No reputable historian agrees with her identifications between people in the Scrolls and people in the New Testament, or believes in her "hidden history". Here she is utterly out on her own...Dr. Thiering's ideas have no historical credibility."[3]

In 2005 Peter Flint, Professor of Religious Studies and Co-Director of the Dead Sea Scrolls Institute at Trinity Western University in British Columbia, wrote:[4]

"Her views and theories on Jesus and Christian origins have little basis in the scrolls, and even less in the New Testament. Her pesher technique misuses the concept of pesher, her datings of the scrolls are suspect and seem informed by an outside agenda, the connections she draws between Qumran and other nearby communities in the Judean Desert are highly questionable, and the links she finds between the scrolls and the New Testament are almost always without foundation."

[David Guyatt]

Barbara Theiring is a local DSS scholar who has written extensively on the interpretation of the DSS. She makes a far better case for real history than does the bible or church.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jesus-Man-Interp...0552139505

I believe a lot of her work can still be found on scribd.com. I think she was another maverick as was John Allegro who is becoming more vindicated as more of the scrolls are being published. Sex, drugs and ancient rock n roll! People never change.

I agree with much of Theiring's opinions but anything contrary to the rubbish that has been handed down by the church is kept as quiet as possible. A trillion dollar per year industry doesn't go away overnight but now there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

just so we understand who we;re talking about and the other side of the story (and what appears to be peer review)....

Barbara Thiering
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Barbara Thiering (born 1930) is an Australian nonfiction writer, historian, and Biblical exegete specializing in the origins of the early Christian Church. In books and journal articles, she challenges Christian orthodoxy, drawing on claimed new evidence that gives alternative answers to its supernatural beliefs. Her analysis has been rejected by many scholars in the field.

From her speciality, studying the Dead Sea Scrolls, their semiotics, and their hermeneutics, she has propounded a theory arguing that the miracles, including the Turning water into wine, the Virgin Birth, Healing a man at a distance, the man who had been thirty-eight years at the pool, and the Resurrection, among others, did not actually occur (as miracles), as Christians believe, nor were they legends, as some skeptics hold, but were "deliberately constructed myths"[1] concealing (yet, to certain initiates, relating) esoteric historic events. She alleges that they never actually happened (that is, that the events they chronicle were not at all miraculous), as the authors of the Gospels knew. They wrote, according to the methods of pesher, which she discovers in the scrolls, on two levels. For the “babes in Christ,” there were apparent miracles, but the knowledge of exact meanings held by the highly educated members of gnostic schools gave a real history, of what Jesus actually did.

Born in Sydney, Australia, Thiering graduated in 1952 from Sydney University with first class honours in modern languages, was a high school teacher of languages for several years, and then, while caring for her three young children, continued study and research privately. She obtained an external B.D. degree from the University of London, a M.Th. degree from Melbourne College of Divinity, and a Ph.D. degree from Sydney University in 1973.

As a consequence of her research publications in academic journals, she was invited to lecture at Sydney University, at first in the Department of Semitic Studies, then in the School of Divinity (now the Department of Religious Studies) where she continued until her retirement. During this time she was a member of the Board of Studies in Divinity and the Board of Continuing Education, and served for twelve years as a lay member of the NSW Equal Opportunity Tribunal. When her work became known in the USA, she was made a Fellow of the Jesus Seminar.

In 1990 a documentary film about her research, Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls, was shown by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

Dr. Thiering's book: Jesus the Man has recently been re-published.
Contents

Academic Reception of her Work

While Thiering's thesis attracted some controversy in the media when Jesus the Man was published in 1990, her ideas have not received acceptance by her academic peers. In a response to a letter Thiering wrote to The New York Review of Books, objecting to a review by Geza Vermes, Vermes gave his personal estimation of the academic reaction to her work:

"Professor Barbara Thiering's reinterpretation of the New Testament, in which the married, divorced, and remarried Jesus, father of four, becomes the "Wicked Priest" of the Dead Sea Scrolls, has made no impact on learned opinion. Scroll scholars and New Testament experts alike have found the basis of the new theory, Thiering's use of the so-called "pesher technique", without substance."

(The New York Review of Books, December 1st, 1994)

In 1993 Nicholas Thomas Wright, now Bishop of Durham, wrote:[2]

It is safe to say that no serious scholar has given this elaborate and fantastic theory any credence whatsoever. It is nearly ten years since it was published; the scholarly world has been able to take a good look at it: and the results are totally negative.


Historian Dr. C.B. Forbes from the Department of Ancient History of Macquarie University says "No reputable historian agrees with her identifications between people in the Scrolls and people in the New Testament, or believes in her "hidden history". Here she is utterly out on her own...Dr. Thiering's ideas have no historical credibility."[3]

In 2005 Peter Flint, Professor of Religious Studies and Co-Director of the Dead Sea Scrolls Institute at Trinity Western University in British Columbia, wrote:[4]

"Her views and theories on Jesus and Christian origins have little basis in the scrolls, and even less in the New Testament. Her pesher technique misuses the concept of pesher, her datings of the scrolls are suspect and seem informed by an outside agenda, the connections she draws between Qumran and other nearby communities in the Judean Desert are highly questionable, and the links she finds between the scrolls and the New Testament are almost always without foundation."

This is not an area I have knowledge of so I will step with some care.

From her speciality, studying the Dead Sea Scrolls, their semiotics, and their hermeneutics, she has propounded a theory arguing that the miracles, including the Turning water into wine, the Virgin Birth, Healing a man at a distance, the man who had been thirty-eight years at the pool, and the Resurrection, among others, did not actually occur (as miracles), as Christians believe, nor were they legends, as some skeptics hold, but were "deliberately constructed myths"[1] concealing (yet, to certain initiates, relating) esoteric historic events. She alleges that they never actually happened (that is, that the events they chronicle were not at all miraculous), as the authors of the Gospels knew. They wrote, according to the methods of pesher, which she discovers in the scrolls, on two levels. For the “babes in Christ,” there were apparent miracles, but the knowledge of exact meanings held by the highly educated members of gnostic schools gave a real history, of what Jesus actually did.

Her theory strikes me as a very sensible hypothesis and one that is easier to believe for instance, than the reality of the Virgin birth, turning water into wine or the Resurrection etc.

I can easily see why Religious scholars find her theories abhorrent and unacceptable. That's scholars for you - a highly jealous and protective class of individuals who are, imo, less concerned with historical accuracy than with their own elevated place in the order of things.

Never-the-less her views are more than interesting to me and I think she may be getting close to the truth on these matters. Not necessarily the truth itself, but approaching the vicinity of it perhaps.

[Kate Story]

David, if you call those entries 'peer reviews' you need to do a little background check of these 'peers'. Flint is mormon, Wright is christian and Forbes is christian also. You could hardly expect a glowing review on anything that cast a shadow on orthodox views of the bible and Jesus. The one that made me nearly fall from laughing is Geza Vermes!!!! He was another DSS translator, catholic priests who also left the church and the priesthood. He considered Jesus to be just a Hasidic jewish holy man. Starting to see a pattern here??
I wonder why you should be so concerned about the secular world not agreeing with your views on religion when so many who claim to be christian don't even believe in the divinity of jesus nor that believing is essential for salvation. The following quotes are just a sample of hundreds by 'christian leaders'. I would think you would be more concerned with the dirt around the church's door(rampant child molestation both catholic and protestant with over 800 million dollars paid out in settlements/hush money) and how the world is to understand just exactly what you people do believe when none of you seem to agree at all. If there is a god, he can take care of himself and would hardly need defending by mere weak mortals. BTW, if there is but one true god why are there over 2000 sects of Christianity alone!!

Now back to the true ‘theologians’.
Geza Vermes spoke as part of a panel on religious approaches to truth that also included Swiss Cardinal Georges Cottier, former theologian of the Papal Household under Pope John Paul II.

Vermes devoted his presentation to arguing that on the basis of the New Testament, the image of Jesus that emerges is that of a charismatic, wonder-working Jewish holy man, and thus not the divine Son of God claimed by later Christian tradition.
The Greek-influenced version of Christianity developed by St. Paul and elaborated across centuries of Christian theological reflection, Vermes said, “would have perplexed Jesus the Jew.”

During a group discussion of religious leaders from around the world, held at the Thanksgiving World Assembly in Dallas, Texas, in March of 1999, Cardinal Francis Arinze, President of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, is quoted as follows:
"(A document from the Second Vatican Council) says that God's grant of salvation includes not only Christians, but Jews, Muslims, Hindus and people of good will. That is, a person can be saved, can attain salvation, but on condition that the person is open to God's action. ..." ...
Robert Ashley, news director at Dallas radio station KHVN-AM, asked Cardinal Arinze: "So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?"
Cardinal Arinze answered: "Expressly, yes (he laughs with the audience)."
'If God himself gave freedom', article © March 20, 1999, by Brooks Egerton, staff writer of The Dallas Morning News, third edition, page 1G.
This is a very interesting situation, where the Vatican is proclaiming itself to be the one true church of Christ, and that all non-Roman Catholic denominations "suffer from defects" and "are not Churches in the proper sense", and other religions "are in a gravely deficient situation", while at the same time they are denying that faith in Jesus Christ is necessary to salvation, that non-Christians can be saved. Truly Amazing!

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI.
Boy!! That is a real doozie!

The Pope made this affirmation today at the general audience, commenting on a meditation written by St. Augustine (354-430).
Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991, n. 29; L’Osservatore Romano English edition, 1 July 1991, p. III).
Pope John Paul II, General Audience, Wednesday 9 September 1998

[Bernice Moore]

There is no question that this technology exists, and has existed for a very long time.

I wrote the following in 1996 at the request of the International Committee of the Red Cross. I'm quite happy for the entire thing to be posted on this forum but for brevity am linking it HERE

It is a now long out of date and others have carried on the research - one being John J McMurtry who's Remote Behavioral Influence Technology Evidence essay can be read HERE

David, that is a wonderful article! I had read many of those items from research done by others but you have it all in one neat bundle. Thank you for posting the link. You can type in 'Victims of Childhood Mind Control in the 1940's' under any search engine and get some shocking first hand accounts of just how advanced and far back these atrocities are.

None of this is new and is just a continuation of all the ancient mystery schools. The NT speaks of the mysteries and the jesus figure teaches in parables to the common people and tells his chosen followers only they can receive the true knowledge and it will be hidden from all others. If the day ever comes when the complete contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls have been truthfully translated and released the world can clean up the mess that religions have caused. If these evil secret organizations have tainted governments how could any right thinking person be so naive to believe religions were left untainted? Next to governmental control religion is next in line as a tool of human brainwashing and control. The three major Abrahamic religions keep fighting each other and don't have one clue what is really going on or what they are truly worshipping. In 2007 at his Easter sermon Pope Benedict stirred up quite an uproar by declaring that he believed Jesus celebrated passover in the Essene tradition and also that John the Baptist grew up in the Qumrum Essene community. The Essenes were the radical zealot jewish sect that had split from the church at Jerusalem and declared they were the real 'chosen' of god. They were pro-torah law keepers and anti-gentile. That would be why Jesus and his followers referred to non-jews as dogs. I would think from the many controversial statements of the Pope in the last two years, he knows it is a matter of time before the truth will come forth. It is my opinion that to see the beginnings of these secret societies, mind control and 'mystery schools' one needs to look no further than the so-called holy books, especially the KJV of the christian bible. I believe those books are blueprints for these societies and have been followed down through the ages. Apparently, there were as many different secret societies in those days as now. The so-called Apostle Paul had his own thing going and his form of christianity is what is presented today. Many scholars and scroll translators believe he is the "spouter of lies" that the Essenes referred to in some of their scrolls.

here we go, if its not Jew bashing well, what else, its Christian bashing, all wrapped up in intelligentsia. My but the world is full of F-E-A-R

Be nice if you'd post your scholars and scroll translators (whoever in the hell, they are) their cites for your above. Ya wanna sell something other than opinion, provide the goods.

Tnx,
David Healy

...

not POSITIVE if this fits here but the saying "" if you want people to believe a lie, mix a little truth in it.."" comes to mind...why is it in the end so many times the JEWS ARE BLAMED FOR ALL THE ILLS EVENTUALLY THAT SEEM TO PLAGUE PEOPLE..ESPECIALLY ON THE WEB..I HAVE NEVER MET ONE THAT WAS NOT VERY HONEST AND TRUTHFUL AND GREAT TO DO BUSINESS WITH.....YET THEY ARE AND HAVE BEEN AND WILL CONTINUALLY BE BLAMED..IN EVERY OFF SUBJECT DISCUSSION THAT TAKES PLACE WHEN IT COMES TO RELIGION AND OR POLITICS IT APPEARS AT TIMES THAT IS WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO I GUESS NOT HAVING A RUSSIAN BEAR TO BLAME ANY LONGER THE MOSLEMS AND JEWS HAVE STEPPED UP TO THE FRONT..THOUGH UNWILLINGLY I AM SURE..IT USED TO BE THE BLACKS THAT WERE ALL CONSUMING TO BLAME IF MEMORY SERVES.I IMAGINE IN SOME AREAS THEY STILL ARE AND OR MEXICANS ALSO..IN OTHERS ....THIS TYPE OF TURNS WITHIN WEB SUBJECTS SUCKS IMO..SORRY BUT THAT IS MO..AND THE REASON SOME LEAVE FORUMS AT TIMES.OR TURN UP LESS AND LESS...:hmmmm2:..IN OTHERWARDS WHO WANTS TO READ THIS KIND OF CRAP..I KNOW THEN DO NOT OPEN THE LINK BUT HOW IS ONE TO KNOW UNLESS THEY DO SO...:ahhhhh:B

[Helen Reyes]

Re: SoS

Very interesting. The original post's quote confuses ELF and VHF audio and radio, but this is resolved in microwave-induced audio in David's excellent little essay.

Re: Jesus and Qumran

From what I understand of it. both Jesus and John the Baptist were part of the sect that was at Qumran. The Qumran types were both Essenes AND Zadokites, i.e. Sadducees, probably something new and not quite one or the other. The sect that was at Qumran was normally very secretive and protective, while John and Jesus were quite public. Jesus added a large measure of Galilean millenianlism and apocalypse to the mix, although the rehoabitism was endmeic to both the Galilee cults and the sect that was at Qumran, and provides a context to an earlier underground Judaism, prior to Solomon's Temple, that knew its roots were Egyptian and preserved a certain amount of esoterica.

What happened is that Jesus fell out with the sect that was at Qumran, or was excommunicated, for disclosing the mysteries to the uninitiated, or, as the followers of John put it, twisting the truth, i.e., lying. He warped the treasures, the Johannites wrote.

This schism between John the Baptist and Jesus, perhaps post-mortem in essence, can be seen if you read between the lines of the appropriate New Testament passages. GRS Mead's John the Baptizer has more on this. Fortunetaly, the followers of John survive until today and have their own scripture, see Lady Drower's Mandaeans of Iraq and Iran.

Paul's role was initially as infiltrator of the various sects then current on behalf of a nascent novel Jewish orthodoxy working in tandem with the Roman occupation. Qumran had a codename used by the followers to keep the place secret. Pauls' rabbi was involved in rounding up supposedly heretical Aramaic translations of the Book of Job. An Aramaic translation of Job is known from Cave 11 I believe (or Cave 4?) at Qumran. The chances are good Paul was on the way to Qumran, not Damascus, although the Zadokite/Essene group had allegedly fled to Syria before, during times of persecution.

As for the personalities of the Wicked Priest and the Good Teacher and all the rest, it appears they refer to an earlier mass crucifixion of members of a group that was the antecedent to the Qumran Zadokites/Essenes, in Jerusalem, long before Jesus was born.

It's interesting that Pope Ratzinger has made these statements, I was not aware of this. St. Augustine of Hippo's mother was of course Monica the Manichean. St. Augustine was a gnostic until he converted to Roman Christianity. Bishop Pike of the Anglican Church faced a similar kind of dilemma over doctrine in the 1960s, what to tell the Little People concerning the truth of what is in the Bible.

Vermes of course was blamed for suppressing a lot of what the Scrolls Commission did, delaying publication and the whole thing. Edmund Wilson got blamed for sparking controversy where there was none. John Allegro might have been a Methodist, I am not aware of that, but he was the only non-cleric on the Commission, a linguist, and he is usually said to have been non-sectarian or even atheist. He said the Essenes' name came from Sumerian ESSOI, whose meaning I forget. His assertion of an Amanita muscaria cult behind the Scrolls also points back to Egypt, where there is circumstantial evidence for an ancient Amanita cult, although I don't remember him making that connexion in Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.

That the parables were for outsiders while the inner group of believers got the plain truth in Christianity is well known. Morton Smith's discovery of correspondence from Clement of Alexandria concerning the same theme, knowledge for the initiated and denial of facts to outsiders, is only one very small piece of evidence for the fact tht Christianity was composed of an inner and an outer group, i.e. it had an esoteric and exoteric aspect (see his Secret Gospel).

James the Just Jesus's brother doesn't seem to have been a Christian at all, but was coopted for duty later. He was apparently assassinated at the Temple in Jerusalem. The sources say he was High Priest of the Temple in Jeruslaem, which makes zero null no sense if the High Priest ordered Jesus crucified (Antipas or Calaphais or Anaias or whatever his name was, I forget). James would be anathema as the heretic's brother. The Mandaeans confirm that John the Baptist's parents were aged and thought to be sterile when he was conceived. His mother was Elzbieta, Miriam's sister, I think they say. His father was, guess what, one of the High Priests in Jerusalem. The story is an angel heralded John's birth and a star was seen high in the heavens. There is also a story that Zachariah saw an ass in the Temple. That's an old joke and is a way of saying the paternity was in question.

Anyway, that's my take on it, not that I know a whole lot about it.