Sean Murphy's research deserves more

[Marlene Zenker]

Sticking to the image evidence alone for a minute, doesn't it all seems to suggest that no one heard anything significant from a window above them?
Even if they saw Baker run past some may have thought "oh, poor man must need the bathroom bad".
May have took a good while for that whole gang on the steps to realise someone shot at the president at all and then it would be perhaps just a rumour.

It was either Meagher or Weisberg who first pointed out that not one of the TSBD employees was afraid of returning to the building, or acted like the shots came from their workplace. Some of the female employees would later tell the WC that they thought the shots came from the TSBD, but also said that they went right back to their offices. Oh really? Does that sound believable? In the office building where I work, if the President was shot right outside and anyone suspected the shooter was in our building, NO ONE would be going back in to possibly encounter a madman with a gun.

edit: missing words

Tracy, I think we can't really know why people do what they do in a tragedy. Look at 911 - how many people left both the North and South towers only to go back in.

[Paul Rigby]

I've followed this thread on the Education Forum and was initially highly skeptical, but now I'm more on the fence. We should be able to figure out who "prayer man" is by deduction. My only doubt comes from the possibility that "prayer man" may be a woman (middle-aged or older) with short hair. We don't have photos of most of the TSBD employees to compare it to.

Here's a list I made up years ago of all the employees, based on FBI interviews done in 1964. Name/Occupation/location at time of assassination:

Holt, Gloria Jeannie Clerk in billing dept, TSBD since July 1963 South side of Elm with Jacob, Mrs Nelson (Sharon Simmons)

Jacob, Stella Billing dept typist, TSBD since July 1963 South side of Elm (with Sharon Simmons [Mrs Nelson], Jeanne Holt)

Nelson, Sharon Clerk, TSBD On Elm St halfway between TU and TSBD, with Holt and Jacob

Interesting to note that all three women stated to the FBI that they had stood, as a group, on the south side of Elm St, approximately fifty yards along its length toward the underpass, during the shooting - and that none are to be seen on the second public version of the Zapruder fake:

Gloria Jeanne Holt, statement to FBI's SAs Eugene P. Petrakis & A. Raymond Switzer, 18 March 1964:

"I left the Depository building and walked down toward the Stemmons expressway underpass west of the building approximately fifty yards and took up a position on the curb on the south side of Elm Street to await the presidential procession. I was accompanied by Sharon Simmons, now Mrs Nelson, and Stella Jacob…I was still standing on the curb at the time the president was shot." 22H652

Stella Mae Jacob, statement to the FBI's SAs Eugene P. Petrakis & A. Raymond Switzer, 18 March 1964:

"I left the Depository building and walked down toward the Stemmons expressway underpass west of the building approximately fifty yards and took up a position on the curb on the south side of Elm Street...I was accompanied by Sharon Simmons, now Mrs Nelson, and Jeanne Holt…I was still standing on the curb at the time President John F. Kennedy was shot," 22H655.

Sharon Nelson (nee Simmons), statement to the FBI's SA E.J. Robertson, 18 March 1964:

"At the time President Kennedy was shot I was standing on the sidewalk on Elm Street midway between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the underpass on Elm Street. I was with Jeannie Holt…and Stella Jacob…," 22H665.

The presence of the three south Elmers, in a group, in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, was confirmed by Deputy Sheriff C.L. "Lummie" Lewis:

"I ran around the corner and came across Houston Street to Elm Street to the Park. I saw some people there. I began to talk to them getting names and information. I talked to the following named people: 1) Simmons, 2) Holt, 3) Jacobs. See statements taken from all three named people," 19H526-7

.

They thus join Mrs. Hester in the honour of being removed from the south kerb of Elm by the Z fake.

[Albert Doyle]

Any chance they confused the Elm Street extension and Elm Street?

[Tracy Riddle]

Tracy, I think we can't really know why people do what they do in a tragedy. Look at 911 - how many people left both the North and South towers only to go back in.

Marlene, planes crashing into a skyscraper is a little different than a sniper in a 7-story office building.

[Tracy Riddle]

They thus join Mrs. Hester in the honour of being removed from the south kerb of Elm by the Z fake.

The Hesters can be seen in a couple of photos behind and to the left of Zapruder sitting in front of the concrete pergola.

[Paul Rigby]

They thus join Mrs. Hester in the honour of being removed from the south kerb of Elm by the Z fake.

The Hesters can be seen in a couple of photos behind and to the left of Zapruder sitting in front of the concrete pergola.

And so they can. But here's how Mrs Hester originally described her location and movements prior to those photos:

Mrs CHARLES HESTER, 2619 Keyhold Street, Irving, Texas, advised that sometime around 12:30 p.m., on November 22, 1963, she and her husband were standing along the street at a place immediately preceding the underpass on Elm Street, where President Kennedy was shot. Mrs HESTER advised she heard two loud noises which sounded like gunshots, and she saw President KENNEDY slump in the seat of the car he was riding in. Her husband then grabbed her and shoved her to the ground. Shortly thereafter they went across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter. She stated that she believes she and her husband actually had been in the direct line of fire. She did not see anyone with a gun when the shots were fired and stated she could not furnish any information as to exactly where the shots came from. After the President's car had pulled away from the scene, she and her husband proceeded to their car and left the area as she was very upset," 24H523

That's some divergence from the Z fake, yet far from incompatible with her presence in the pergola in the assassination's aftermath.

Of course, if the Z fake didn't have a chain of possession even dodgier than CE-399, one would be inclined to take the fake more seriously.

[Donald Manning]

Tracy, I think we can't really know why people do what they do in a tragedy. Look at 911 - how many people left both the North and South towers only to go back in.

Marlene, planes crashing into a skyscraper is a little different than a sniper in a 7-story office building.

I appreciate the point Marlene, we cannot know what those people were thinking, of course.
However, the moving footage of those early reactions does seem to corroborate many of the accounts that claim "a shooting was the last thing we expected"
The scores of "backfire" and "firecracker" references we have too, I now tend to think, relate more to the state of mind rather than the accurate interpretation of a sound.
So I would suggest that for those we see outside that building the tragedy has yet to develop.
I would also submit that the cowboy looking up is only wondering what the funny man in the camera car is pointing at.

Also Lovelady.
Can someone explain why PM is not him based on the visuals?
Shirt is buttoned up for one, secondly it's not him, okay.
Anything else?

[Albert Doyle]

Also Lovelady.
Can someone explain why PM is not him based on the visuals?
Shirt is buttoned up for one, secondly it's not him, okay.
Anything else?

Lovelady's distinct hairline and head are seen off to the right of the steps where he was seen in the Martin color film. Of course Fetzer and Cinque claim this was forged.

[Donald Manning]

Thanks again Albert, I'm struggling with the 90 pages on EF never mind the close to 50 on re-open.
I'll spare you the details.

Anyway, I'm having trouble too seeing him on the right in Darnell and after watching that clip again I can't say that isn't him still in the position we see him in Hughes, after actually moving to his right to let the folks pass by.

As as been explained, this is pretty solidly Lovelady.
Black guy in front.
PM too difficult to make out.

Okay so far?

Lovelady can be seen together with Prayer Man in certain frames

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5554[/ATTACH]

Is that what Ivan meant by the above statement?
Two women side by side, one in white, other in black, the latter is stood in front of a man as the former walks up past him.

The man seems to step up to look over the lady in black who has parked herself and blocked his view.


Someone's first instinct elsewhere, "PM is Lovelady" and I thought sure, could be but it seems many have ruled that out already and I'm still not sure why exactly.
As was suggested on P1 can we gather the relevant info here?
Is there a stable Wiegman gif that goes with the two above?

[Albert Doyle]

If you have a very sharp eye you can catch Lovelady's bald spot on the man half way up the right side of the steps in the lower video.