Peter Lemkin Wrote:Lauren, Lets try to keep an even keel. While I'll agree that the US and NATO have done more than their share of false-flag operations, they are not the only country or entity that has. Russia has [one to mention would be those apartment bombings outside of Moscow blamed on Chechen 'terrorists']; China has, as well. Pakistan did and it is not yet clear if they did it on their own or under someone else's sponsorship. Israel and the old South Africa certainly did many false flag operations...One could go on. Many nations, for their own reasons, have hopped on the 'war on terror' bandwagon - or were already on it before the USA proclaimed it on 9-11-01. False-flag predates the Trojan Horse episode.
Yes, the oddest thing about the disappearance of the plane is no one claiming it was done in the name of or against the name of X, Y, or Z. I think that it could be used for an attack a la 9-11, but all major countries [those likely to be the target] are well aware of this now and will send up interceptors [or shoot down] an unidentified plane of that type - unlike the 'hesitancy' shown by Cheney and Rumsfeld et al.
While satellite imaging and sensing is a highly-kept secret, I can't imagine that both US and Russian [possibly other] spy or even simply Earth-watching satellites are not able to track the plane better than the scant information we've been told about [the engine handshakes]. I note one seeming discrepancy on the handshakes. They say they carried on for seven [!] hours after the plane was 'lost' about 45 minutes into flight....that means it likely traveled a long distance. The discrepancy is with that they say they can only pin down one distance [shown in the map above]. If, as they say, they were getting handshakes [minus the usual set of data] for seven hours, that alone should allow a calculation of distance, if not position - and if heard by two or more satellites, then position should be 100% possible. Spy satellites are built to [along with other things] track incoming missiles and planes [even at night; even without electronic signals or false ones to mislead], so why they can't track civilian planes is hard to imagine. I think several countries know much more about this event than they are saying publicly. They may have what they think are good reasons for their silence, or they could be involved in some black operation that may not yet be complete. Sadly, whatever the scenario, I can't imagine the passengers and crew being held alive somewhere - although there is that smallest and remotest possibility - I think it very unlikely.
While air travel is still RELATIVELY safe, more and more persons are going to wish the days of large ocean going passenger ships would return.....
While far from being inclined [at this point] to think along the lines of pilot suicide...I think this now forgotten episode with an Egyptian airline might need looking at again, in light of what has just happened..... The Egypt Air flight 990 was two years before 9-11. I don't know, but am asking myself - was it the co-pilot or was someone testing control of planes by electronic means - or something completely other? If memory serves, the wreckage was found in the ocean.
A dozen years ago, U.S. investigators filed a final report into the 1999 crash of EgyptAir Flight 990, which plunged into the Atlantic Ocean near the Massachusetts island of Nantucket, killing all 217 aboard. They concluded that when co-pilot Gameel El-Batouty found himself alone on the flight deck, he switched off the auto-pilot, pointed the plane downward, and calmly repeated the phrase "I rely on God" over and over, 11 times in total.Yet while the National Transportation Safety Board concluded that the co-pilot's actions caused the crash, they didn't use the word "suicide" in the main findings of their 160-page report, instead saying the reason for his actions "was not determined." Egyptian officials, meanwhile, rejected the notion of suicide altogether, insisting instead there was some mechanical reason for the crash.
Peter, no one shot down this plane (at least we don't know of any shoot down) when it wandered off its known route and into who knows how many different countries air space.
Marlene Zenker Wrote:Peter, no one shot down this plane (at least we don't know of any shoot down) when it wandered off its known route and into who knows how many different countries air space.
I never said anyone did! I just said it is on the minds of any airforce with the capable interceptors, equipment, missiles to do so if they think a plane is being hijacked and might be used as planes were on 9-11. Personally, I think the plane was electronically taken over from without - with a possible onboard accomplice. I see no signs of a shootdown. I was merely stating that post 9-11 thinking on large planes [or small] going off course has changed.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
That is an interesting forum.....and the thread is, as expected, huge! These are pilots and many of them are familiar with this airplane; all of them [to varying degrees] familiar with standard flight procedures and even non-standard ones. All that said, they have about the same range of theories as others. I learned some interesting things reading there.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
Marlene Zenker Wrote:Peter, no one shot down this plane (at least we don't know of any shoot down) when it wandered off its known route and into who knows how many different countries air space.
I never said anyone did! I just said it is on the minds of any airforce with the capable interceptors, equipment, missiles to do so if they think a plane is being hijacked and might be used as planes were on 9-11. Personally, I think the plane was electronically taken over from without - with a possible onboard accomplice. I see no signs of a shootdown. I was merely stating that post 9-11 thinking on large planes [or small] going off course has changed.
I meant that if the theory is that since 9/11/01 planes that wander off will be shot down why wasn't MH370 shot down - I didn't mean you said it was.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
A Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER, flight 318 to Beijing, sat on the tarmac Monday at Kuala Lumpur International Airport. Flight 318 replaces 370, retired out of respect to the passengers and crew of the missing plane. CreditEdgar Su/Reuters
WASHINGTON The first turn to the west that diverted the missing Malaysia Airlines plane from its planned flight path from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing was carried out through a computer system that was most likely programmed by someone in the plane's cockpit who was knowledgeable about airplane systems, according to senior American officials. Instead of manually operating the plane's controls, whoever altered Flight 370's path typed seven or eight keystrokes into a computer on a knee-high pedestal between the captain and the first officer, according to officials. The Flight Management System, as the computer is known, directs the plane from point to point specified in the flight plan submitted before a flight. It is not clear whether the plane's path was reprogrammed before or after it took off.
The fact that the turn away from Beijing was programmed into the computer has reinforced the belief of investigators first voiced by Malaysian officials that the plane was deliberately diverted and that foul play was involved. It has also increased their focus on the plane's captain and first officer. Continue reading the main storyEstimated range of plane with its remaining fuel if it was flying at the plane's maximum speed:
KAZAKHSTAN
MONGOLIA
UZBEK. KYRG. TAJIK.
60 min. of fuel
20 min.
AFGHAN.
Approx. area within the top and bottom 20-min. ranges: 2 million square miles
PAKISTAN
CHINA
NEPAL
BANGLADESH
INDIA
MYANMAR
LAOS
Approx. time
after takeoff
THAILAND
VIETNAM
+40 min. Last contact with civilian radar.
First weeksearch area
MALAYSIA
Kuala Lumpur airport
+1 hour 34 min. Last contact with military radar.
INDONESIA
Position of satellite that received last known signal from plane.
+7.5 hours Red arcs represent possible positions of plane when it transmitted last signal to satellite.
INDIAN OCEAN
Plane may have flown up to another hour after its last satellite transmission.
AUSTRALIA
By SERGIO PEÇANHA, ARCHIE TSE and TIM WALLACE Source: Malaysian government
On Tuesday, the Chinese ambassador to Malaysia, Huang Huikang, told reporters that the Chinese government had ruled out suspicions of the Chinese on board, who made up about two-thirds of the 227 passengers, according to Chinese news organizations. Prime Minister Najib Razak of Malaysia told reporters on Saturday that his government believed that the plane had been diverted because its transponder and other communications devices had been manually turned off several minutes apart. American officials were told of the new information over the weekend. Continue reading the main storyRELATED COVERAGE
[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/world/asia/malaysia-backtracks-on-when-airliners-communications-were-disabled.html"]Malaysia Backtracks on When Airliner's Communications Were DisabledMARCH 17, 2014
Pilots' Possible Role in Flight 370 Vanishing Unthinkable' to FriendsMARCH 17, 2014
[/URL]
But the Malaysian authorities on Monday reversed themselves on the sequence of events they believe took place on the plane in the crucial minutes before ground controllers lost contact with it early on March 8. They said it was the plane's first officer the co-pilot who was the last person in the cockpit to speak to ground control. And they withdrew their assertion that another automated system on the plane, the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System, or Acars, had already been disabled when the co-pilot spoke. Continue reading the main storyVideoPLAY VIDEO
VIDEO|0:52
CreditVincent Thian/Associated Press
Airline on Plane's Communication System
The chief executive of Malaysia Airlines says it is unclear when the missing plane's communications system, known as Acars, was switched off. Flight 370's Flight Management System reported its status to the Acars, which in turn transmitted information back to a maintenance base, according to an American official. This shows that the reprogramming happened before the Acars stopped working. The Acars ceased to function about the same time that oral radio contact was lost and the airplane's transponder also stopped, fueling suspicions that foul play was involved in the plane's disappearance. Investigators are scrutinizing radar tapes from when the plane first departed Kuala Lumpur because they believe the tapes will show that after the plane first changed its course, it passed through several pre-established "waypoints," which are like virtual mile markers in the sky. That would suggest the plane was under control of a knowledgeable pilot because passing through those points without using the computer would have been unlikely. According to investigators, it appears that a waypoint was added to the planned route. Pilots do that in the ordinary course of flying if air traffic controllers tell them to take a different route, to avoid weather or traffic. But in this case, the waypoint was far off the path to Beijing. Continue reading the main story[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/03/17/world/asia/search-for-flight-370.html"]GRAPHIC
The Search for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370
Maps and diagrams showing how investigators are piecing together the path of the missing plane. OPEN GRAPHIC
[/URL]Whoever changed the plane's course would have had to be familiar with Boeing aircraft, though not necessarily the 777 the type of plane that disappeared. American officials and aviation experts said it was far-fetched to believe that a passenger could have reprogrammed the Flight Management System. Normal procedure is to key in a five-letter code gibberish to nonaviators that is the name of a waypoint. A normal flight plan consists of a series of such waypoints, ending in the destination airport. For an ordinary flight, waypoints can be entered manually or uploaded into the F.M.S. by the airline. One of the pilots keys in a waypoint on a separate screen known as a scratchpad, and after confirming that it has no typographical errors, pushes another button to move it into the sequence already in the flight plan. Normal practice is to orally confirm the waypoint with the other pilot, then push another button to instruct the airplane to go there. With the change in course, the plane would bank at a comfortable angle, around 20 degrees, and make the turn. Passengers would not feel anything unusual.
I have a question or two. Read the opening para again:
Quote:WASHINGTON The first turn to the west that diverted the missing Malaysia Airlines plane from its planned flight path from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing was carried out through a computer system that was most likely programmed by someone in the plane's cockpit who was knowledgeable about airplane systems, according to senior American officials.
How do those unnamed American officials exactly know the diversion was carried out by someone in the plane's cockpit? They weren't there were they?
Quote:Instead of manually operating the plane's controls, whoever altered Flight 370's path typed seven or eight keystrokes into a computer on a knee-high pedestal between the captain and the first officer, according to officials. The Flight Management System, as the computer is known, directs the plane from point to point specified in the flight plan submitted before a flight. It is not clear whether the plane's path was reprogrammed before or after it took off.
How do the same unnamed officials know it was seven our eight keystrokes into a computer on a knee high pedestal?
What exactly is the Times saying here? Simple conjecture, deflection, BS or fact based knowledge?
It's a quite curious article all in all.
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge.
Apparently the US has contacted the Taliban to ask them if they know any thing about the plane. The Taliban said they wished they had done it. It would be something they would do if they could but they didn't.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx
"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.
“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
18-03-2014, 10:13 AM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2014, 10:32 AM by Peter Presland.)
Here's another possibility tagged on to the hijacking scenario. In this case the co-operation of a pilot would probably be required though today's techie capabilities do make the point somewhat moot. In either event this scenario would have required some very careful pre-planning to synchronise and piggy-back with another scheduled flight - IOW NOT a single rogue/disaffected pilot in the traditional lone-nut patsie role, though my guess is that is exactly what is being lined up for us:
Monday, March 17, 2014 - 12:01 AM EST UPDATED: Monday, March 17, 2014 - 9:00 AM EST Typo was made during the conversion of UTC times. Meeting of SIA68 and MH320 occurred at 18:00UTC - 18:15UTC. MH320 dropped off of civilian radar at 17:22UTC. UPDATE - Monday, March 17, 2014 - 12:15 PM EST Some have raised the statement that TCAS doesn't work if the transponder is disabled… this is only partially correct. Other planes TCAS would NOT see MH370 at all. MH370 would not actively query other planes as it's transponder is off HOWEVER it could still listen to any transponder output from other planes that are actively transmitting. SQ68 would have been actively transmitting while in-range of Subang ATC center.
Even if TCAS on MH370 wasn't working for some reason, an in-expensive portable ADS-B receiver paired with an iPad and Foreflight app would allow a pilot to receive the ADS-B output being transmitted by SQ68 at that time.
By: Keith Ledgerwood
As the search for missing flight Malaysian Airlines flight 370 drags on into the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] day, so many questions continue to remain unanswered about how and why the airliner could have disappeared while seemingly under the control of a skilled pilot intent on making it invisible. With satellite pings showing where the plane could be after more than seven hours of flight, speculation has arisen that the plane could be on the ground anywhere along a path from northern Thailand to the border of Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan.
The major roadblock to this theory has been the insistence from India and Pakistan that their radar network showed no such unidentified aircraft entering or traversing their airspace. It would seem highly unlikely given such information that a Boeing 777 could indeed slip through undetected.
As a hobby pilot and aviation enthusiast, a theory began to form in my own mind on this 10[SUP]th[/SUP] day as all of the latest information began to trickle in slowly through media outlets globally. After being unable to escape the idea that it may have happened, I began to do some analysis and research and what I discovered was very troubling to me!
Starting with a set of facts that have been made available publically and verified over the past few days, I first plotted MH370's course onto an aviation IFR map which shows the airways and waypoints used to navigate the skies. I plotted the point where it stopped transmitting ADS-B information at 1721UTC. I then plotted the Malaysian military radar track from that point towards "VAMPI", "GIVAL", and then onward toward "IGREX" on P628 ending with where the plane should be at 1815UTC when military radar lost contact.
That chart looks like this:
Source: SkyVector.com
Nothing profound there… but then I looked to see what other planes were in the air at 1815UTC and I looked to see exactly where they were positioned in the sky and where they were flying. The picture started to develop when I discovered that another Boeing 777 was en-route from Singapore over the Andaman Sea. Source: FlightRadar24.com
I investigated further and plotted the exact coordinates of Singapore Airlines flight number 68's location at 1815UTC onto the aviation map. I quickly realized that SIA68 was in the immediate vicinity as the missing MH370 flight at precisely the same time. Moreover, SIA68 was en-route on a heading towards the same IGREX waypoint on airway P628 that the Malaysian military radar had shown MH370 headed towards at precisely the same time.
Source: SkyVector.com
It became apparent as I inspected SIA68's flight path history that MH370 had maneuvered itself directly behind SIA68 at approximately 18:00UTC and over the next 15 minutes had been following SIA68. All the pieces of my theory had been fitting together with the facts that have been publically released and I began to feel a little uneasy.
Singapore Airlines Flight 68 proceeded across the Andaman Sea into the Bay of Bengal and finally into India's airspace. From there it appears to have proceeded across India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and finally Turkmenistan before proceeding onward across Europe to its final destination of Barcelona, Spain.
This map depicts the approximate flight path of SIA flight 68 on that particular day. Additional detail will be required from each countries aviation authorities to establish exact particulars of the route.
Source: SkyVector.com
So by now, you may have caught on or you may be scratching your head and wondering if I've gone insane! How does SIA68 have anything to do with MH370 disappearing? Remember the one challenge that is currently making everyone doubt that MH370 actually flew to Turkmenistan, Iran, China, or Kyrgyzstan? That challenge is the thought that MH370 couldn't make it through several key airspaces such as India or Afghanistan without being detected by the military.
It is my belief that MH370 likely flew in the shadow of SIA68 through India and Afghanistan airspace. As MH370 was flying "dark" without transponder / ADS-B output, SIA68 would have had no knowledge that MH370 was anywhere around and as it entered Indian airspace, it would have shown up as one single blip on the radar with only the transponder information of SIA68 lighting up ATC and military radar screens. Wouldn't the SIA68 flight have detected MH370? NO! The Boeing 777 utilizes a TCAS system for traffic avoidance; the system would ordinarily provide alerts and visualization to pilots if another airplane was too close. However that system only operates by receiving the transponder information from other planes and displaying it for the pilot. If MH370 was flying without the transponder, it would have been invisible to SIA68.
In addition, the TCAS system onboard MH370 would have enabled the pilot(s) to easily locate and approach SIA68 over the Straits of Malacca as they appeared to have done. The system would have shown them the flight's direction of travel and the altitude it was traveling which would have enabled them to perfectly time an intercept right behind the other Boeing 777. Here is a picture of a TCAS system onboard a 777. How does this solve the mystery??? We know MH370 didn't fly to Spain! Once MH370 had cleared the volatile airspaces and was safe from being detected by military radar sites in India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan it would have been free to break off from the shadow of SIA68 and could have then flown a path to it's final landing site. There are several locations along the flight path of SIA68 where it could have easily broken contact and flown and landed in Xingjian province, Kyrgyzstan, or Turkmenistan. Each of these final locations would match up almost perfectly with the 7.5 hours of total flight time and trailing SIA68. In addition, these locations are all possibilities that are on the "ARC" and fit with the data provided by Inmarsat from the SATCOM's last known ping at 01:11UTC.
There are too many oddities in this whole story that don't make sense if this theory isn't the answer in my opinion. Why did MH370 fly a seemingly haphazard route and suddenly start heading northwest towards the Andaman Islands on P628? If not for this reason, it seems like a rather odd maneuver. The timing and evasive actions seem deliberate. Someone went through great lengths to attempt to become stealthy and disable ACARS, transponder/ADS-B (even though SATCOM to Inmarsat was left powered).
After looking at all the details, it is my opinion that MH370 snuck out of the Bay of Bengal using SIA68 as the perfect cover. It entered radar coverage already in the radar shadow of the other 777, stayed there throughout coverage, and then exited SIA68's shadow and then most likely landed in one of several land locations north of India and Afghanistan.
Sources: SkyVector.com, FlightRadar24.com, FlightAware.com, CNN.com, Reuters.com.
-Keith L. KeithLCincy@gmail.com
Peter Presland
".....there is something far worse than Nazism, and that is the hubris of the Anglo-American fraternities, whose routine is to incite indigenous monsters to war, and steer the pandemonium to further their imperial aims" Guido Preparata. Preface to 'Conjuring Hitler'[size=12][size=12] "Never believe anything until it has been officially denied" Claud Cockburn
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Source: FlightRadar24.com ![[Image: tumblr_inline_n2l0it1rMg1suyqf0.png]](https://31.media.tumblr.com/9b781b9689a0c36b4b311b5fba8d7633/tumblr_inline_n2l0it1rMg1suyqf0.png)
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