Paul Schrade on second gunman in RFK shooting

[Lauren Johnson]

It's the kind of crap that leads to Paul is dead.

Wow!! I didn't know that. ::::pullhairout::

[Ashley Wood]

It's true Lauren. On the Sgt Rutters album Stig is leaning in the exact same position as a dying yeti.

[Lauren Johnson]

It's true Lauren. On the Sgt Rutters album Stig is leaning in the exact same position as a dying yeti.

Was this around the time when Peter James Bond, drummer for Spinal Tap, spontaneously combusted leaving only a little green globule on his drum seat -- actually it was more like a stain. There's got to be some kind of connection!

::laughingdog::

[Tom Bowden]

Sirhan did not fire the fatal shots into RFK
Sirhan knew the Polka Dot Dress before the fatal night
FBI shot analysis is accurate
Evidence was compromised and changed by LAPD
LAPD had active CIA/Mafia Members
Guns in evidence were never destroyed but either sold or retained by Officers including H18603
Evidence in Sacramento has been substituted and cleansed
Cesar was paid money as late as 1981.

I do not believe mind control as detailed in most theories was performed. Sirhan's feelings for Polka Dot Dress were used to drive him into a jealous frenzy.
Too many people write books to make money and deliberately mislead the public with sensationalism and false conclusions.

I share my research with those who truly search for the truth.
I will not share it in open forums such as this.

[Lauren Johnson]

Sirhan's feelings for Polka Dot Dress were used to drive him into a jealous frenzy.

How do you come to this conclusion?

[Peter Lemkin]

Sirhan did not fire the fatal shots into RFK
Sirhan knew the Polka Dot Dress before the fatal night
FBI shot analysis is accurate
Evidence was compromised and changed by LAPD
LAPD had active CIA/Mafia Members
Guns in evidence were never destroyed but either sold or retained by Officers including H18603
Evidence in Sacramento has been substituted and cleansed
Cesar was paid money as late as 1981.

I do not believe mind control as detailed in most theories was performed. Sirhan's feelings for Polka Dot Dress were used to drive him into a jealous frenzy.
Too many people write books to make money and deliberately mislead the public with sensationalism and false conclusions.

I share my research with those who truly search for the truth.
I will not share it in open forums such as this.

Sorry you seem to take such a dim view of this Forum and/or those on it.
While on your short list, above, I'd have no problem with any listed except the last one. You have shown to me absolutely no motive for Sirhan Sirhan to shoot anyone, let alone a well-known enemy of those who killed JFK. It also boggles my mind to think that the CIA and LAPD and others would perform a decades long cover-up of a shooting based on jealousy. You think that Morales was just boasting when he told Carjal and others that "I was in Dallas when we got the son of a bitch and I was in Los Angeles when we got the little bastard."?..not to mention that Ayers and others ID'd Morales in the ballroom with two other CIA covert ops biggies.

While most of my ACTIVE RESEARCH has been more on JFK than RFK, I have kept up on the research of others, some quite close friends I highly trust, who were more focused on the RFK assassination, and every one of them feels there is more than ample evidence of hyno-programming of S.S. - his notebooks of repetitive 'RFK must die' being just one item of a multitude. The MK/ULTRA and other associated programs were well known. Dr. Joyland West and several others were involved in it. Again, I don't see where you have any logical motive on the part of S.S. to commit the crime or for the LAPD, CIA and others to cover it up. How convenient for the CIA and their ilk to have a jealous lover kill RFK for them. Sorry, I don't buy the no-hypnoprogrammed idea. To me it doesn't hold water - not a drop. IMHO.

FYI, I have personally met with Noguchi, Wecht, Turner, Ayers, and others who have done primary research about the case; and I had a friend ask my questions to Dr. West at UCLA [I had just been a grad student there and was a known researcher and didn't want to ask them myself]. I've read all the better book on the case and followed it closely since it happened. You are welcome to your views, but pardon me for not sharing one main component of them, and for bristling for being put in a 'camp' for believing that the explanation that best fits the evidence and facts is that Sirhan was a mind-control patsy shooter [and the Polka Dot Lady his key to unlock the post-hypnotic suggestion], and that at least one other real shooter was present.

I invite you to explain a motive on the part of Sirhan sans hypnosis, as well as performing such an elaborate cover-up over a shooting due to jealousy. I'm shaking my head in incredulity at your missing 'dots'. How would the CIA manipulate S.S. into being the patsy shooter without hypnoprogramming? Why does he claim to not remember anything of the shooting, why the far away look in his eyes and almost unnatural strength in his hand/arm when shooting; his reaction to the one time he was put under hynosis post-assassination; his repetitive writings, and more.....?

I believe the likely main hypnosis persons around S.B.S. were Rev. Jerry Owen and William Bryan; and the main, but not exclusive location for this 'work' was at the stables, which just coincidentally had Thomas Bremer, brother to Arthur Bremer, working there. Two other mind-controlled assassins, IMHO, were A. Bremer and M. Chapman. It is an old trick of the intelligence world. I don't see your reasoning for not believing Sirhan that he doesn't remember anything of the events of the shooting [even under hypnosis]. If you want simplicity, take him at his word. Another famous patsy also spoke the truth when he famously said, 'I am only a patsy!'.

[Lauren Johnson]

Peter: well said.

Tom: I have never heard your speculation regarding jealousy as a motive on the part of Sirhan. It seems quite a reach to me as well, every bit as much as you find the hypno-programming motive, apparently. But then, you won't lower yourself to justify something that makes so little sense. Don't you have to argue that Sirhan was manipulated into being insanely jealous of RFK. Are you saying that RFK was poking the Polka Dot Woman?

[Ashley Wood]

Peter, I think the ID of Morales and the other two "CIA" men in the ballroom as featured in the BBC Newsnight report was later withdrawn and Shane O'Sullivan (who did some excellent work on the case with his film and book) admitted the error. I'll see if I can find the correct ID for those three and post it here.

[Ashley Wood]

Chapter 18, Chasing Shadows from Shane O'Sullivan's book "Who Killed Bobby?" deals with this issue in full. It's not Morales et al in the ballroom.

[Peter Lemkin]

Chapter 18, Chasing Shadows from Shane O'Sullivan's book "Who Killed Bobby?" deals with this issue in full. It's not Morales et al in the ballroom.

I am aware there is some controversy as to who those three are, but they are three very suspicious men that were identified as CIA folk and I think are still considered to be CIA folk - forget the watch man story. In any case, there or not, or having his double there, Morales admitted to close friends he trusted, that he had participated at some level along with others in killing both JFK and RFK....shortly before he too was bumped off JUST after his last trip from D.C. One can always try to pick apart one part of someone's position. It can be done as correction or as a way to try to make the entire belief system they have look as if it has fallen on its face. I'll stake my research career on Sirhan being a mind-control patsy and the CIA and other standard secret government types working to kill and cover-up the RFK assassination. I'm very skeptical that those three men are not who Ayers and Smith from the Embassy in Havana ID'd them as. Ayers is a sharp cookie who I have met with many a time, and know he watches over his shoulder for what he's said publicly. I haven't emailed Shane in a long time and may just do so to try to get his current take on this....but it changes nothing essential to the story. 3 suspicious men in the ballroom. CIA people all over and in the LAPD. Two shooters and S.S. not the main one - just the patsy and IMO the mind-control patsy [and not the only one of those].