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Have you guys taken a look at Levenda's new book The Hitler Legacy? Im only a couple of chapters into it and Ive learned so much about Levenda's life and intelligence connections which before I felt like i had to piece together from various blogs and obscure podcasts trying to figure him out.
Anyway the occult obviously figures heavily in the book...
on another note. Ive never seen Jay Dyer mentioned here before and I just started reading and listening to him a few months ago...
Dyer and Levenda seem to both have murky agendas coming from different places. Sometimes I feel like the whole "deep politics" thing has been come its own upstart industry, especially with the internet, i suppose it always was.. however sometimes when these researchers sounds interesting with good material but beneath the surface, i feel like Im just being sold another ideology or religion.. Ed Opperman is a great interviewer but a total evangelical christian. Levenda is into the occult, lately I feel like Dyer who seems to admire Joseph P Farrell has his heart in the Eastern Orthodox Church, James Corbett is an anti state libertarian. I dont think anything is bad about believing in any of these things, its just when you can tell it skews the research...
btw, Joseph Farrell one time taught at this extremely right wing fundamentalist christian school here where I live in orange county (and to call a school "extreme fundamentalist christian" is saying something because there is a lot of competition here..
anyway I guess i should have started my own thread
meh, Im feeling cynical today..
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Kara Dellacioppa Wrote:Have you guys taken a look at Levenda's new book The Hitler Legacy? Im only a couple of chapters into it and Ive learned so much about Levenda's life and intelligence connections which before I felt like i had to piece together from various blogs and obscure podcasts trying to figure him out.
Anyway the occult obviously figures heavily in the book...
on another note. Ive never seen Jay Dyer mentioned here before and I just started reading and listening to him a few months ago...
Dyer and Levenda seem to both have murky agendas coming from different places. Sometimes I feel like the whole "deep politics" thing has been come its own upstart industry, especially with the internet, i suppose it always was.. however sometimes when these researchers sounds interesting with good material but beneath the surface, i feel like Im just being sold another ideology or religion.. Ed Opperman is a great interviewer but a total evangelical christian. Levenda is into the occult, lately I feel like Dyer who seems to admire Joseph P Farrell has his heart in the Eastern Orthodox Church, James Corbett is an anti state libertarian. I dont think anything is bad about believing in any of these things, its just when you can tell it skews the research...
btw, Joseph Farrell one time taught at this extremely right wing fundamentalist christian school here where I live in orange county (and to call a school "extreme fundamentalist christian" is saying something because there is a lot of competition here..
anyway I guess i should have started my own thread
meh, Im feeling cynical today..
Dyer just cranks it out. I have been thinking that there are more than one of him or he has a staff of researchers and writers. Where does the money come from that? He has started to take subscriptions, but still ...
"We'll know our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believes is false." --William J. Casey, D.C.I
"We will lead every revolution against us." --Theodore Herzl
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Kara Dellacioppa Wrote:Have you guys taken a look at Levenda's new book The Hitler Legacy? Im only a couple of chapters into it and Ive learned so much about Levenda's life and intelligence connections which before I felt like i had to piece together from various blogs and obscure podcasts trying to figure him out.
Anyway the occult obviously figures heavily in the book...
on another note. Ive never seen Jay Dyer mentioned here before and I just started reading and listening to him a few months ago...
Dyer and Levenda seem to both have murky agendas coming from different places. Sometimes I feel like the whole "deep politics" thing has been come its own upstart industry, especially with the internet, i suppose it always was.. however sometimes when these researchers sounds interesting with good material but beneath the surface, i feel like Im just being sold another ideology or religion.. Ed Opperman is a great interviewer but a total evangelical christian. Levenda is into the occult, lately I feel like Dyer who seems to admire Joseph P Farrell has his heart in the Eastern Orthodox Church, James Corbett is an anti state libertarian. I dont think anything is bad about believing in any of these things, its just when you can tell it skews the research...
btw, Joseph Farrell one time taught at this extremely right wing fundamentalist christian school here where I live in orange county (and to call a school "extreme fundamentalist christian" is saying something because there is a lot of competition here..
anyway I guess i should have started my own thread
meh, Im feeling cynical today..
Hi Kara, I've read Levenda's Hitler Legacy.......and his earlier books too. It was certainly obvious that he had an interest in the Occult. I guess we all have our biases and see the World through the filter of them and our own individual lives and beliefs. Personally, I think if one can just see what the person's belief system is and take that into account, many who one might not agree with 100% still have valid research to offer in part or on the whole, depending. The thing about the 'research community', if there really is such a thing, that has long bothered me is not their biases and slant, but the infighting and/or lack of willingness to work with many others, for the most part. Each usually have a very small group they work with and won't help out others. Not all follow that 'rule', but it seems to be the general case. Yes, Corbett is an anti-government libertarian who denies anthropogenic climate change, and I think that clouds some of his research a little, but leaves a lot of the rest of it unscathed and useful [to me]. It is simply helpful to know where 'someone is coming from', and sometimes it takes a bit of work to find out.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
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I couldn't agree more with you Pete, about the so called "research community" and the incessant in-fighting and personality bitching and fighting. It always surprised me to see such bitter divides over such astonishingly tiny difference when I first got into these matters. It's so very destructive to watch ego's look for the most minuscule flaw they can jump on to argue over.
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge. Carl Jung - Aion (1951). CW 9, Part II: P.14
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By the way, I've just received my copy of Levenda's The Dark Lord and will try to remember to report back on it when I have finished reading it. The Collective Shadow is a particular interest of mine and I will be interested in learning how Levenda's insights jibe or differ from Jung on this.
So far - and I have only read the preface by James Wassermann I am encouraged because Wassermann notes in regard to the Dark Lord (the archetype rather than the book title: "Yet at the end (and this is the point) when we do at last encounter Him, who will we meet but ourselves?"
That is indeed is the point, and the subject, and the future.
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge. Carl Jung - Aion (1951). CW 9, Part II: P.14
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I've now finished Levenda's The Dark Lord and it has been fascinating and informative reading. Levenda is very obviously knowledgeable and experienced in aspects of Crowley's Thelema based religion as well as Grants's system as well. I've come away from the book knowing and understanding a great more about these two than I previously had.
I also came away alarmed.
Both Crowley and Grant, in my view, are entirely wrong headed - and yet both have considerable followings. Both focused their entire occult systems on sexual techniques - sex magick (1) - as a means of gathering the necessary energy (usually described as "power") in order to thrust their consciousness into what Grant called the Mauve zone (what used to be called astral travelling). The difference between them and others, so far as I can judge, is that they actively pursued knowledge of the dark/negative side of creation - hence the "Dark Lord". And again, so far as I can judge, the results they obtained confirmed their expectations. No surprises there, then.
It is true that anyone who operates in this area, sooner or later, does have to confront and absorb their own shadow (2). Doing so results in that part of the life energy (libido) that streams through one that has hitherto been siphoned off by the shadow is ultimately recovered and becomes available for positive use. That, combined with the cleansing technique that Israel Regardie called the Middle Pillar exercise (the circulation of light), plus other techniques including breathing, focusing and concentration exercises etc., all combine with the use of what Jung called "Active Imagination" are patiently developed over an extended period of time, for the purpose of accessing "that place between sleep and awake" that was described by J M Barrie in his book Peter Pan.
That realm is neither here, nor there, and neither then or now. It is alien but also world-like. The golden rules when travelling to this "far abroad" is to be polite and considerate, patient and questioning. Open doors when confronted with them. Ask questions of the intelligences you meet. Again politely, even when the answers you may receive are abrupt. The face you present is the face you will meet.
Untold numbers have been visitors in that land. Far more than is ever realized.
I have never before spoken so openly about these things before for obvious reasons. It is a subject that is very easily misunderstood and misinterpreted. But times are changing. The whole purpose underlying this is to become more conscious and more individually responsible for who you are. Recovering energy from the personal Shadow has the added benefit of marginally reducing the energy available to the Collective Shadow, simply because the latter is the aggregation of all the former. This is why Jung said that "man is the origin of all coming evil" and that "the only real danger that exists is man himself. He is the great danger". Many people are aware of the fact that Crowley called himself the Beast and ascribed to himself the number "666" using Gematria. That number as most of us know biblically is said to e the number of the Devil. However, far fewer people are aware that the number 666 is actually the number of man.
Use of the occult techniques of power as exemplified by Crowley and Grant are, for me, abusive, dangerous, unnecessary and for the most part for entirely the wrong motives. Use of what are usually referred to as lower techniques: sex magick and drugs etc., to reach these ends are, as Levenda rightly points out dangerous - often very dangerous - because conscious control is relinquished and because it is quite likely that an unbalanced - even a marginally unbalanced - personality will be further tipped into neurotic - and God forbid, possibly even psychotic behaviours. Whomsoever teaches dangerous techniques to another who then falls into these ways bears a considerable degree of responsibility for the outcome. Their card will be marked.
Besides this, there is really no need to proceed with such brute force when far more controlled and sympathetic means and measures are available. Only impatience and imprudence would permit such trespassing. Properly trained and schooled, the time and experiences spent in the there and then can be safely brought back to the here and now under control --- for slow absorption and digestion. Digestion will take many, many years to achieve. Decades, probably.
I hope the foregoing is of use to someone. God knows who though. :  :
(1) If not sex, then the use of drugs etc., could be used in place of the sex rite.
(2) This is considerably different to dealing with the Collective Shadow, however - a much more dangerous and ill considered idea.
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge. Carl Jung - Aion (1951). CW 9, Part II: P.14
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Very interesting, David. Thanks. I am still trying to make sense of a lot of this material as I feel that it is the most important (and least understood) aspect of deep politics. Part of the problem is that there is such a wide array of perspectives; from the traditionalists like Evola and Guenon to the darker figures such as Crowley and Grant. Perhaps there comes a point where simply reading about a subject won't suffice and some kind of practical engagement is necessary.
Carl Jung - Shadow Projection:
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.â€
― Leo Tolstoy,
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Thanks RK. The nature of the Shadow and shadow projection was covered at considerable length some 7 years ago in the Alchemy folder, where a number of associated factors were also discussed. For example, a thread titled The Archetype of the Shadow -- where were listed a number of Jung's statements about the Shadow confrontation:
Quote:If a man is endowed with an ethical sense and is convinced of the sanctity of ethical values, he is on the surest road to a conflict of duty. And although this looks desperately like a moral catastrophe, it alone makes possible a higher differentiation of ethics and a broadening of consciousness. A conflict of duty forces us to examine our conscience and thereby to discover the shadow.
Carl G. Jung - Collected Works vol 18 - Depth Psychology and a New Ethic - P.17
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge.
Carl G. Jung Collected Works vol 9, Part II: Aion P.14
Despite all attempts at denial and obfuscation there is an unconscious factor, a black sun, which is responsible for the surprisingly common phenomenon of masculine split-mindedness, when the right hand mustn't know what the left is doing.
Carl G Jung, Collected Works vol 15 - Mysterium Coniunctionis: p331 and p332
Where love rules, there is no will to power; and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the Shadow of the other.
Carl G Jung - Collected Works vol 7: Two Essays on Analytical Psychology, P78
Other threads of possible interest are:
[URL="https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?11387-Active-Imagination-as-a-meditational-technique#.VuaWasdsyRs"]Active imagination as a meditational technique
[/URL][URL="https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?11664-Jung-s-commentary-on-The-Secret-of-the-Golden-Flower#.VuaWysdsyRs"]Jung's Commentary on the Secret of the Golden Flower
[/URL]
On the Nature of the Shadow
[URL="https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?394-Jung-alchemy-and-the-quot-Shadow-quot#.VuaZEcdsyRs"]Jung, Alchemy and the Shadow
[/URL]
[URL="https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?580-Very-rare-footage-of-von-Franz-on-quot-Projection-quot#.VuaX08dsyRs"]Very Rare Footage of Von Franz on Projection
[/URL]
In the last link was included Youtube footage of an interview with Marie-Louise Von Franz - Jung's closest collaborator who became the leading Jungian after Jung's death (and incidentally a very close friend to my own Analyst, the late Dr, Anne Maguire), on the dangers of not withdrawing shadow projections. I'm posting the clip again below and note that the first 24 seconds are the telling ones:
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge. Carl Jung - Aion (1951). CW 9, Part II: P.14
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Lauren, I listened to an interview today posted on Dyer's facebook. It was with Alexander Dubin, Russian intellectual and former Putin adviser. It was extremely interesting, it was mostly focused on liberalism and "end of the West". I looked more into this guy and his links, and it turns out he considers himself a Traditionalist philosopher. I found a lot of what he said compelling. Dyer is affiliated with the Eastern Orthodox Church, I started going through links to make connections among the people that Dyer cites in his work and focuses on. Pretty soon it was at the National Policy Institute an American white supremacist think thank, Dyer cites people like Spengler and Julius Evola, from what I gather they see themselves as non racist fascists. I started to feel creeped out. Today I read an interview with him where Dyer states that he isn't a fascist, yet all over the place he quotes these thinkers who were fundamental to fascist movements in Europe and America, including Francis Yockey. He even talks about reading Gary North, the Christan Identity guru. As Peter and David point out, researchers need to account for biases but often there are hidden agendas. And Lauren is right, how does this guy pay his rent? Does he really make so much money that he can produce endless high quality shows? The Koch brothers have been funding right movements for a very long time since the John Birch Society and probably even before then. Social media is ground zero for them to spread all kinds of disinfo through supposedly "independent" researchers. They funded the Ron Paul phenomena and modern libertarianism. We have "Young Americans for Liberty" on our campus, A few white kids have ALL this money to promote Ayn Rand meets Phyllis Schafly literature to contaminate our campus. I know that I might seem like Im condemning Dyer on the basis of what he reads but his choice of literature is interesting and doesn't pass the smell test. Oh and the Alexander Dubin guy endorses Trump for president. I don't know what the answer is. Liberalism is a failed ideology, I agree with that, I actually agreed with much of Dubin's critique of America. What the solution is, I just don't know. But I know its not fascism.
Lauren Johnson Wrote:Kara Dellacioppa Wrote:Have you guys taken a look at Levenda's new book The Hitler Legacy? Im only a couple of chapters into it and Ive learned so much about Levenda's life and intelligence connections which before I felt like i had to piece together from various blogs and obscure podcasts trying to figure him out.
Anyway the occult obviously figures heavily in the book...
on another note. Ive never seen Jay Dyer mentioned here before and I just started reading and listening to him a few months ago...
Dyer and Levenda seem to both have murky agendas coming from different places. Sometimes I feel like the whole "deep politics" thing has been come its own upstart industry, especially with the internet, i suppose it always was.. however sometimes when these researchers sounds interesting with good material but beneath the surface, i feel like Im just being sold another ideology or religion.. Ed Opperman is a great interviewer but a total evangelical christian. Levenda is into the occult, lately I feel like Dyer who seems to admire Joseph P Farrell has his heart in the Eastern Orthodox Church, James Corbett is an anti state libertarian. I dont think anything is bad about believing in any of these things, its just when you can tell it skews the research...
btw, Joseph Farrell one time taught at this extremely right wing fundamentalist christian school here where I live in orange county (and to call a school "extreme fundamentalist christian" is saying something because there is a lot of competition here..
anyway I guess i should have started my own thread
meh, Im feeling cynical today..
Dyer just cranks it out. I have been thinking that there are more than one of him or he has a staff of researchers and writers. Where does the money come from that? He has started to take subscriptions, but still ...
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David Guyatt Wrote:I've now finished Levenda's The Dark Lord and it has been fascinating and informative reading. Levenda is very obviously knowledgeable and experienced in aspects of Crowley's Thelema based religion as well as Grants's system as well. I've come away from the book knowing and understanding a great more about these two than I previously had.
I also came away alarmed.
Both Crowley and Grant, in my view, are entirely wrong headed - and yet both have considerable followings. Both focused their entire occult systems on sexual techniques - sex magick (1) - as a means of gathering the necessary energy (usually described as "power") in order to thrust their consciousness into what Grant called the Mauve zone (what used to be called astral travelling). The difference between them and others, so far as I can judge, is that they actively pursued knowledge of the dark/negative side of creation - hence the "Dark Lord". And again, so far as I can judge, the results they obtained confirmed their expectations. No surprises there, then.
It is true that anyone who operates in this area, sooner or later, does have to confront and absorb their own shadow (2). Doing so results in that part of the life energy (libido) that streams through one that has hitherto been siphoned off by the shadow is ultimately recovered and becomes available for positive use. That, combined with the cleansing technique that Israel Regardie called the Middle Pillar exercise (the circulation of light), plus other techniques including breathing, focusing and concentration exercises etc., all combine with the use of what Jung called "Active Imagination" are patiently developed over an extended period of time, for the purpose of accessing "that place between sleep and awake" that was described by J M Barrie in his book Peter Pan.
That realm is neither here, nor there, and neither then or now. It is alien but also world-like. The golden rules when travelling to this "far abroad" is to be polite and considerate, patient and questioning. Open doors when confronted with them. Ask questions of the intelligences you meet. Again politely, even when the answers you may receive are abrupt. The face you present is the face you will meet.
Untold numbers have been visitors in that land. Far more than is ever realized.
I have never before spoken so openly about these things before for obvious reasons. It is a subject that is very easily misunderstood and misinterpreted. But times are changing. The whole purpose underlying this is to become more conscious and more individually responsible for who you are. Recovering energy from the personal Shadow has the added benefit of marginally reducing the energy available to the Collective Shadow, simply because the latter is the aggregation of all the former. This is why Jung said that "man is the origin of all coming evil" and that "the only real danger that exists is man himself. He is the great danger". Many people are aware of the fact that Crowley called himself the Beast and ascribed to himself the number "666" using Gematria. That number as most of us know biblically is said to e the number of the Devil. However, far fewer people are aware that the number 666 is actually the number of man.
Use of the occult techniques of power as exemplified by Crowley and Grant are, for me, abusive, dangerous, unnecessary and for the most part for entirely the wrong motives. Use of what are usually referred to as lower techniques: sex magick and drugs etc., to reach these ends are, as Levenda rightly points out dangerous - often very dangerous - because conscious control is relinquished and because it is quite likely that an unbalanced - even a marginally unbalanced - personality will be further tipped into neurotic - and God forbid, possibly even psychotic behaviours. Whomsoever teaches dangerous techniques to another who then falls into these ways bears a considerable degree of responsibility for the outcome. Their card will be marked.
Besides this, there is really no need to proceed with such brute force when far more controlled and sympathetic means and measures are available. Only impatience and imprudence would permit such trespassing. Properly trained and schooled, the time and experiences spent in the there and then can be safely brought back to the here and now under control --- for slow absorption and digestion. Digestion will take many, many years to achieve. Decades, probably.
I hope the foregoing is of use to someone. God knows who though. ::
(1) If not sex, then the use of drugs etc., could be used in place of the sex rite.
(2) This is considerably different to dealing with the Collective Shadow, however - a much more dangerous and ill considered idea.
Thank you for sharing this David, Its very thoughtful. Ive been trying to wrap my head about these issue for the past couple of years. I also think that its important to look at the political historical context out of which Crowley and his acolytes were created. I think its ignorant to smear everything considered "occult" as "Satanic", which is a Christian concept. Crowley was a creation of the British Empire. I just realized not to long ago that Annie Besant (Theosophist leader) was responsible for creating the Indian Congress Party.
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