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The Tippit Case in the New Millenium
Milo Reech Wrote:DJ -- answers to some of your questions follow.

Quote:Does an hour earlier really tell us much about 12:30 thru 1:30 ??
Belt five ends at 12:40, no point in speculating on what might be the complete contents of belt six.

Quote:Did Westbrook/Croy take the assassin with them to 10th & Patton?
No, per Clemons two men left on foot in different directions. One took the alley to Crawford. The other took Patton to Jefferson.

Quote:Is VAGANOV worth serious consideration?
Yes, his was the red Ford seen by Benavides, after Benavides arrived at the scene as observed by Guinyard, if he saw one at all.

Quote:Olsen claims to have been working at "the Estate" which may have just been a large plot with a house on it...
Do we think he is lying about this?
I'm certain of it. Harry lied his head off. Specter's WC interrogation was so insipid the only point of interest is who in his entourage carried the paper bag.

For insight into Olsen's character:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html...lPageId=36


Hey Milo -

I'm not talking about the 2 men who left on foot... I'm talking about the police car in the driveway T-boning Tippit's car... that Mrs. HOLAN saw... and that backed away with 2 men driving just after the shooting...
If that was WESTBROOK it may not have been CROY since he was driving his own car and not a "2nd police vehicle"

Seems to me that this slice of CROY's testimony suggests it was HOLAN and not MARKHAM who he speaks to yet he appears to combine these 2 into one person:

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the name of the woman you talked to across the street?
Mr. CROY. I don't recall. I think she lived across the street. She was standing out in front watering her yard or doing something in her yard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have the impression that she lived across the street, in a house across the street?
Mr. CROY. I believe she did. I am not sure either, or it was in the neighborhood and she was there in the yard. She was across the street when it happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you stated that she was watering her yard?
Mr. CROY. Or something. She was standing in the yard doing something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the first thing you indicated was, she had been watering her yard? Apparently that was something that stuck with you from, of course, talking with her?
Mr. CROY. I don't remember what she said she was doing. She was doing something in the yard, and I presume that is where she lived was across the street.


"Mrs Holan went downstairs and across the street"

Croy actually claims they leaned up against Tippit's car to discuss the murder... nothing like directly tainting a crime scene...
[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=9658&stc=1]
I cannot seem to post images at the EF so I'm going to post it here and link to it.... The discussion was about David Phillips and how much of a spook he was...

Quote:"Career included assignment as the agency's station chief in Venezuela. Brazil and the Dominican Republic. Operation of a radio station on an island off the coast of Cuba during the early months of Fidel Castro's rule. And his... CIA career was conducted under deep cover. Meaning … He was never to be photographed except for his official identification for the CIA and U.S. State Department. (He worked under diplomatic cover in Me... CIA career was conducted under deep cover.
Mexico City 1961 - 1965"

- Steve Thomas http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/...ent=388102

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=9659&stc=1]


Attached Files
.jpg   Mrs Holan statement re Tippit murder.jpg (Size: 305.52 KB / Downloads: 37)
.jpg   phillips-david-atlee-photo-signed-autograph-c-i-a-15.gif.jpg (Size: 41.25 KB / Downloads: 38)
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
R. Hunter
Reply
Quote:Seems to me that this slice of CROY's testimony suggests it was HOLAN and not MARKHAM who he speaks to yet he appears to combine these 2 into one person:

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the name of the woman you talked to across the street?
Mr. CROY. I don't recall. I think she lived across the street. She was standing out in front watering her yard or doing something in her yard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have the impression that she lived across the street, in a house across the street?
Mr. CROY. I believe she did. I am not sure either, or it was in the neighborhood and she was there in the yard. She was across the street when it happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you stated that she was watering her yard?
Mr. CROY. Or something. She was standing in the yard doing something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the first thing you indicated was, she had been watering her yard? Apparently that was something that stuck with you from, of course, talking with her?
Mr. CROY. I don't remember what she said she was doing. She was doing something in the yard, and I presume that is where she lived was across the street.


"Mrs Holan went downstairs and across the street"

Croy actually claims they leaned up against Tippit's car to discuss the murder... nothing like directly tainting a crime scene...
Holan crossed the street before Croy showed up, and trying to make sense out of his testimony is a perilous undertaking. While Holan may well have watered flowers in the yard, Markham is the better candidate for leaning against Tippit's car with Croy. She even left her shoes on the hood.

Moving the murder back to when it actually occurred opens up an interlude of time during which Markham & Holan shared the stage, along with the police car in the alley and Frank Cimino, Holan's next door neighbor, ending with Bowley's arrival. Holan saw the police car & man in the driveway, but said nothing about either Markham or Cimino. Cimino saw Markham but said nothing about either Holan or the second police car. Markham saw none of the others.

Sorting this out is not straightforward. Cimino arrived before Bowley and left while "the officer was being removed by an ambulance." He probably should have seen the second police car and certainly Holan, but his statement is terse.

It's a knotty problem, a Rashomon enacted by purblind players, but at least it's not inherently imbecile like the WR script. No need for a middle-aged car salesman to dash to the scene like Usain Bolt, grab a murdered officer's service revolver under the eyes of a cop and boisterously try to muster a posse comitatus while forgetting the fugitive's route he had witnessed a few minutes previously.
Reply
Quote:Holan crossed the street before Croy showed up

I packed a lot into this post Milo... please take your time as I think I've stumbled across the conflicts which prove Croy a liar and the DPD transcripts gravely altered...

So... I have a tough time accepting that Milo... If that was indeed the case, then Croy repeatedly mentioning this person was doing something on their front lawn suggests he was talking about HOLAN... but then again, I don't think Croy was there at all... and this posts tries to establish that....

Croy was a liar... Let's take a closer look...

Croy says he was stationed at the 1800-1900 block of Main which is where the motorcade was to turn off HARWOOD and onto MAIN

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time were you at the scene where Tippit was killed
Mr. CROY. I watched them load him in the ambulance.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were you on reserve duty that day
Mr. CROY. Yes. I was stationed downtown in the, I believe it was the 1800 or 1900 block of Main Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a patrol car
Mr. CROY. No; I was on foot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform?
Mr. CROY. In uniform.

The Captain of the Reserves - Charles Oliver Arnett -

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us what those duties were?
Mr. ARNETT. I was at large, but I worked between Harwood and St. Paul, on Main Street.

The map which follows shows these locations... The Captain here was in the same block as CROY (1800 - 1900 Main) yet Croy's name does not appear in his testimony.

Croy continues and it just gets more convoluted... He is "stationed" in the same location as Captain Arnett, between St Paul and Harwood on Main... and yet, it appears he decides to blow off the assignment and just drive home ???

Mr. CROY. Yes. I was stationed downtown in the, I believe it was the 1800 or 1900 block of Main Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a patrol car
Mr. CROY. No; I was on foot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform?
Mr. CROY. In uniform.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you at the time President Kennedy was shot? Mr. CROY. Sitting in my car at the city hall. I would guess, I don't know, because I didn't know he was shot until, I guess, several minutes after it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where you were located when you heard he was shot?
Mr. CROY. No. I was on Main Street trying to go home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were driving your car down Main Street?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About where were you on Main Street?
Mr. CROY. Griffin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Griffin Street?
Mr. CROY. Yes

I don't see how CROY can have come to work, then he either parked at City Hall/DPD walked to Harwood and Main (.6 mile about 15 mins)... or he parked near Harwood/Main and then drove to City Hall/DPD... which makes little sense since he'd have to get his assignment at DPD first... As shown below, he wasn't assigned to Harwood/Main on Nov 22... Venable, Brooks, Sawyer & Heath at Harwood... Boyd & Hunter at St. Paul

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at the scene when Tippit was there?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Unassigned?
Mr. CROY. Yes.

It appears to me that he LEAVES HIS ASSIGNED POST and goes back to his car... at City Hall... and then for some reason goes in the opposite direction of home to Main and Griffin - and claims he's in the car at this spot between Harwood and Griffin for 20 mins...

the only other option is he drove to Harwood & Main and parked.... walked to City Hall to get his assignment and then walk back to a location he didn't know he'd be assigned to?? Or was he simply not supposed to be there at all and does whatever he feels like doing?

Mr. GRIFFIN. As soon as you got unhemmed, what did you do?
Mr. CROY. I went by the courthouse there and there were several officers standing there, and I asked if they needed any help.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive your car to the courthouse?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which courthouse
Mr. CROY. There was only one courthouse.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a county courthouse?
Mr. CROY. There is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a Federal Courthouse, also, but this is the one right there by the plaza and near the Texas School Book Depository
Mr. CROY. The old red courthouse.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On Houston Street?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the corner of Houston and Main?
Mr. CROY. Houston and Main and Elm.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you heard that President Kennedy was shot did you arrive there?
Mr. CROY. Oh, I guess it took me at least 20 minutes to drive those few blocks.


Is this sounding a bit far-fetched yet? Simple things like where he parked, where he was assigned and then where he says he was from 12:00 thru 2pm is only so much BS...

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which way did you drive home?
Mr. CROY. Out Thornton to Colorado, and Colorado to--I can't think of the street. It was Marsalis.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that----
Mr. CROY. Or Zangs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then out Zangs and in a westerly direction?
Mr. CROY. No. That is when I heard the call on Tippit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at the corner of Zangs and Colorado?
Mr. CROY. When the call came out on Tippit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. CROY. I proceeded to the location where Tippit was shot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. CROY. I think it was in the 400 block of East 10th, I believe it was.

With Tippit actually shot at 1:07 or so, connecting Croy's testimony to the altered timing of the tapes is fruitless. If he was actually there and knows enough to say that only MARKHAM was there... his testimony betrays him again

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time were you at the scene where Tippit was killed
Mr. CROY. I watched them load him in the ambulance.


BOWLEY: I looked at my watch and it said 1:10 pm. Several people were at the scene. When I got there the first thing I did was try to help the officer. He appeared beyond help to me. A man was trying to use the radio in the squad car but stated he didn't know how to operate it. I know how and took the radio from him. I said, "Hello, operator. A police officer has been shot here." The dispatcher asked for the location. I found out the location and told the dispatcher what it was. A few minutes later an ambulance came to the scene. I helped load the officer onto the stretcher and into the ambulance.

the ambulance driver - Jasper Butler Jr - confirms this when he says "I had my partner and a large white man at the location to place the Officer's body on our ambulance stretcher." AFTERWARD is when he claims to have used the police radio and let the DPD DISPATCHER KNOW THE INJURED PARTY WAS A DALLAS POLICE OFFICER"

(Doesn't this show then that it was NOT the DPD who called the ambulance but some other party. He says earlier in his statement that they received a call "on the Police Dep't hot line" yet for some reason he feels the need to radio the DPD using Tippit's radio, to inform them the injured party is a policeman... )

That makes no sense...

But to return... Croy, who claims not only to have been at the Tippit scene when the ambulance was there and he was being loaded into it, he stays around for quite a while...

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the Tippit--how long did you remain at the scene of the Tippit killing?
Mr. CROY. Oh, I would say a good 30 minutes. Thirty or forty minutes, something like that.



[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=9663&stc=1]

Ooops.... "If there had been any officers at the scene" ????

======
And one final TID BIT about AMB #601... and what I believe is proof that the DPD Tape transcripts have been altered

BUTLER tells us first that he used the POLICE CAR RADIO to call DPD dispatch, yet he then contradicts himself:

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=9666&stc=1]

Why "using the amb radio" and "tried to use my amb call numbers" would be stated is strange.. OF COURSE he'd use his 601 call #... what else would he use??? So, according to the OFFICIAL TIMELINE
we should see a 601 transmission around the time of Tippit's death from Amb #601.... here are all of AMB 601 transmissions.

[TABLE="width: 834"]
[TR]
[TD]12:41[/TD]
[TD]601 (ambulance)[/TD]
[TD]601[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12:41[/TD]
[TD]601 (ambulance)[/TD]
[TD]Here at the market hall.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12:41[/TD]
[TD]601 (ambulance)[/TD]
[TD]I'm here at the market hall.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12:51[/TD]
[TD]601 (ambulance)[/TD]
[TD]601[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12:51[/TD]
[TD]601 (ambulance)[/TD]
[TD]We're at standby at Parkland.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12:51[/TD]
[TD]601 (ambulance)[/TD]
[TD]No. Standby here at Parkland.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6 total[/TD]
[TD]601 (ambulance) Count[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=9667&stc=1]

and here are all the Ambulance transmissions on Ch1... If we accept a 1:07 murder time... it appears here that there is nothing from #601 (BUTLER) after 12:51...

With the last transmission placing them nearby PARKLAND... ??? and not 400 W Jefferson - literally down the block from the Tippit scene.

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=9668&stc=1]

" (Police Reserve Crowd Control Assignments) " ultimately gets to HARWOOD and MAIN and yet there is no CROY. Croy does not appear to have been assigned to anything specific that Friday morning...

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=9664&stc=1]


this shows the route CROY takes from CITY HALL - despite claiming he was trapped in his car at MAIN/GRIFFIN.. which would require either him parking where he worked without knowing where ahead of time... or he simply never went that way. He says he went to Austin's for lunch directly in the middle of all the activity, after Elm/Houston, 10th/Patton, Zang/Jefferson (where he claims to have seen the cars behind the theater) he just casually continues down and over to Austin's...

And is neither asked nor independently produces a single report related to his day's activities...

And please remember... the DPD Reserves are doing this for no pay.

Mr. ARNETT. Yes sir. Reserves were established about 10 or 11 years ago, to assist in, say, tornadoes or, you know, something that came up that they needed more help in to be trained on that. We don't draw any pay from the Dallas Police Department at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who does pay you?
Mr. . ARNETT. Nobody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a completely voluntary thing on your part? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.


[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=9665&stc=1]


Attached Files
.jpg   Q and A Tippit Ambulance driver JASPER CLAYTON BULTER p4 of 4 - if there had been an officer the.jpg (Size: 97.15 KB / Downloads: 34)
.jpg   Croys impossible journey.jpg (Size: 653.78 KB / Downloads: 37)
.jpg   Croys wild ride.jpg (Size: 389.25 KB / Downloads: 36)
.jpg   Q and A Tippit Ambulance driver JASPER CLAYTON BULTER used the police radio - siad it wouldnt wo.jpg (Size: 123.18 KB / Downloads: 33)
.jpg   Q and A Tippit Ambulance driver JASPER CLAYTON BULTER p1 of 4 - 5 mins from call to Tippit.jpg (Size: 78.85 KB / Downloads: 34)
.jpg   All Ambiulance transmissions chrono order - Butler and 601 appears wrong.jpg (Size: 467.5 KB / Downloads: 36)
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
R. Hunter
Reply
Butler's 1977 HSCA Moriarty/Day interview report contains many dubious statements.

  1. Placement of the murder scene closer to Denver than Patton.
  2. Wrong call number (he used 602 not 601).
  3. Declaring the squad car radio unusable because the car was not running.
  4. Placement of the service revolver on the "hood and/or fender of the squad car."
He was adamant about #1, stating it twice, latter more detailed, wrong both times. Error #2 is also inexplicable. #3 sounds wrong. If the squad car radio didn't work how did Bowley make his call? #4 is curious, inconsistent with the Bowley/Callaway accounts of the same event.

The Nashes interviewed Butler in 1964.
The Dudley M. Hughes Funeral Home is the central ambulance dispatching point for southern Dallas. It either handles calls directly or calls other funeral homes in the system that cover other areas. Dudley M. Hughes Jr., the dispatcher, took the call from the police. He filled out an ambulance call slip with the code "3-19" (which means emergency shooting) and the address, "501 East 10th Street." He put the slip into the time clock and stamped it 1:18 p.m., November 22, in the space marked "Time Called." Since the location was just two short blocks away he told one of his own drivers, Clayton Butler, to respond. Butler and Eddie Kinsley ran down the steps, got into the ambulance and took off, siren screaming.


Butler radioed his arrival at the scene at 1:18 p.m., within 60 seconds of leaving the funeral home. He remembers that there were at least 10 people standing around the man lying on the ground. It was not until he and his assistant pulled back a blanket covering Tippit that they realized the victim was a policeman.


Butler ran back to his radio to inform headquarters. The radio was busy and he could not cut in. He yelled "Mayday" to no avail, and went back to Tippit. The officer lay on his side, face down with part of his body under the left front fender of the police car. Butler and Kinsley rolled him over and saw the bullet wound through Tippit's temple. Butler told us, "I thought he was dead then. It's not my position to say so. We got him into the ambulance and we got going as quick as possible. On the way to the hospital I finally let them know it was a policeman." The record shows that Butler called in to the funeral home at 1:26 p.m. to say he had reached the hospital.


Despite the fact that the ambulance was dispatched to 501 East 10th, no statement was ever taken from either of the Wrights. Mrs. Wright remembers that a man who did not identify himself came around two months after the President's assassination and talked with her for a few minutes. He took no notes, did not ask her to sign anything, did not speak to her husband and did not ask if he had seen anything unusual. Clayton Butler, the ambulance driver, says he was questioned by the Dallas police when he arrived at the hospital, but not since then.

Pretty much the same as the later HSCA version minus the detail errors. In both versions Croy is conspicuous by his absence, surely looks like he did not arrive before the ambulance left the scene.

Quote:the ambulance driver - Jasper Butler Jr - confirms this when he says "I had my partner and a large white man at the location to place the Officer's body on our ambulance stretcher." AFTERWARD is when he claims to have used the police radio and let the DPD DISPATCHER KNOW THE INJURED PARTY WAS A DALLAS POLICE OFFICER"

(Doesn't this show then that it was NOT the DPD who called the ambulance but some other party. He says earlier in his statement that they received a call "on the Police Dep't hot line" yet for some reason he feels the need to radio the DPD using Tippit's radio, to inform them the injured party is a policeman... )
I don't think Butler tried to use Tippit's radio. When he says "police radio" it may refer to a radio on board the ambulance.
Reply
I agree about the Butler evidence... very strange... like that BLUE COAT he claims was over Tippit... ???

Couple things to follow up upon...

Mentzel seems to have been back in service after his lunch at 1:04 and is the
LAST TRANSMISSION on Ch 1 at 1:04. We do not get another Ch 1 transmission
until 1:07... The exact time period the actual Tippit murder took place...

[TABLE="width: 454"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:04[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]91 (Ptm. W.D. Mentzel and Ptm. J.W. Courson)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl69, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]91 clear.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:04 Count[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD]
[TD="class: xl69, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:07[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD]
[TD="class: xl69, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]91 clear. 1:07.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


their first call after the JFK shooting

[TABLE="width: 626"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:11[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 317, bgcolor: transparent"]91 (Ptm. W.D. Mentzel and Ptm. J.W. Courson)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 437, bgcolor: transparent"]817 West Davis?[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

817 W Davis is 1 mile east of the Theater... in the heart of the 91 patrol district...

Mentzel responds to this call with 222 also en route... I have to assume that "222" is the call sign fro patrol area 22 since there are no patrol areas with 3 numbers

[TABLE="width: 454"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:11[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]222[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:11[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]222 (Ptm. V.R. Nolan)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]En route.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

What I am most confused by then, is the communication flow to and from Tippit


[TABLE="width: 454"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:54[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]78[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:54[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]78 (Ptm. J.D. Tippit)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]78[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:54[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:54[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]78 (Ptm. J.D. Tippit)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]Lancaster and Eighth.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:54[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]You will be at large for any emergency that comes in.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:54[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]78 (Ptm. J.D. Tippit)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl69, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]10-4.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 454"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:55[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]78, location?[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 454"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:55[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD]
[TD="class: xl71, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]78, location?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:16[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD]
[TD="class: xl72, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]78[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


At 1:11, when a call comes in from 817 W Davis... the most logical patrol for Murray Jackson
to dispatch would be TIPPIT or NELSON... 78 or 87.

So why is the first call to the normal Oak Cliff Patrol?
Why didn't #91 go to Elm/Houston?
Why isn't 222 at Elm/Houston?
Why send 87 from Elm/Houston to 4340 W Davis when 91, 222, and a host of others where right there?


Do you think they just shifted the timing of these calls? I mean, if POSTAL calls in at 1:43... it takes a hurried shooter 35 minutes to go 1/2 mile... ???

That seems like a bitt much, no?
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
R. Hunter
Reply
For the Tippit experts: on the Walter Cronkite documentary played back by C-Span on 11-22-18, they interviewed witness Domingo Benavides. Benavides stated that Oswald went over and threw his spent cartridges in some bushes.

Benavides then said that he (Benavides) then retrieved the cartridges from the bushes and put them into a Winston cigarette package so as not to leave his fingerprints on them. Following that, Benavides gave them to police.

I had never heard anything about the shells being in the bushes. Plus Benavides said he called in on the police radio. Cronkite played the call-in tape, allegedly made from Tippit's radio. The voice did not sound (to me) like the voice of Benavides.

Cronkite did not ask how many shells Benavides recovered. Also, I think the shells were of two different brands.

Seems like there were a lot of loose ends in the Benavides rendition of his actions.

James Lateer
Reply
James Lateer Wrote:For the Tippit experts: on the Walter Cronkite documentary played back by C-Span on 11-22-18, they interviewed witness Domingo Benavides. Benavides stated that Oswald went over and threw his spent cartridges in some bushes.

Benavides then said that he (Benavides) then retrieved the cartridges from the bushes and put them into a Winston cigarette package so as not to leave his fingerprints on them. Following that, Benavides gave them to police.

I had never heard anything about the shells being in the bushes. Plus Benavides said he called in on the police radio. Cronkite played the call-in tape, allegedly made from Tippit's radio. The voice did not sound (to me) like the voice of Benavides.

Cronkite did not ask how many shells Benavides recovered. Also, I think the shells were of two different brands.

Seems like there were a lot of loose ends in the Benavides rendition of his actions.

James Lateer

Thanks, I'm assuming this is the same at the c-span website:
https://www.c-span.org/video/?454599-1/c...ort-part-3

The voice making the citizen call belonged to Bowley whose presence was anathema to WC (Warren Commission) and therefore anathema to WC (Walter Cronkite) by dint of servile regurgitation, a feeble dupe who reached more wrong conclusions in the course of this documentary than seems humanly possible.

There is an item of interest worth examining. Bowley's voice enters around 11:05 ("Hello, police operator?") followed by the shooting information and disclosure of the correct address. At 11:32 a different voice cuts in with a wrong address ("a police officer, 510 E. Jefferson"). For some reason the dispacher, ignoring the correct address given by Bowley, immediately broadcast the wrong one ("Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.").

Sawyer A omits the intrusive voice altogether which produces the absurdity of the dispatcher broadcasting an address he did not receive (p.395). Ditto the transcript at McAdams' site (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm). CE 1974 attributes the second address to the Citizen who gave the correct address a few seconds previously (p.53), which is ridiculous, but CE 705 gets it right (p.408): '(Some other unknown voice came in with "a police officer, 510 E. Jefferson").'

Whose voice is it? Move ahead to 13:00 and listen to Callaway. I think we have a match.

DJ, many questions I cannot answer, but one is easy.

Quote:Mentzel responds to this call with 222 also en route... I have to assume that "222" is the call sign fro patrol area 22 since there are no patrol areas with 3 numbers
222 was assigned to V.R. Nolan of the Traffic Division. Units 210 through 243 were reserved for accident supervisors & investigators.

As to the rest, yes, it is a bit much, but maybe not so much if a complete accurate transcript were available. Among the fragments we have the 510 E. Jefferson address is curious, located between Johnny Reynolds used car lot and the library. Did Callaway (or someone else) shove Bowley aside and blurt the misdirection (if so, why?), or is it an artifact brought about by tampering with or otherwise mis-processing the dictabelts?
Reply
Milo Reech Wrote:Thanks, I'm assuming this is the same at the c-span website:
https://www.c-span.org/video/?454599-1/c...ort-part-3

The voice making the citizen call belonged to Bowley whose presence was anathema to WC (Warren Commission) and therefore anathema to WC (Walter Cronkite) by dint of servile regurgitation, a feeble dupe who reached more wrong conclusions in the course of this documentary than seems humanly possible.


I believe that at least 2 different people used the police radio at 10th/Patton.... and again.. these times MUST be wrong...

The first call - despite what the Ambulance Driver says about the police car and radio - was BOWLEY (from his affidavit):
A man was trying to use the radio in the squad car but stated he didn't know how to operate it. I know how and took the radio from him. I said, "Hello, operator. A police officer has been shot here." The dispatcher asked for the location. I found out the location and told the dispatcher what it was.

1:16
CITIZEN: Hello, police operator?
DIS: Go ahead. Go ahead, citizen using the police radio.
CITIZEN: There's been a shooting out here.
DIS: Where's it at?
DIS: The citizen using the police radio...
CITIZEN: Tenth Street.
DIS: What location on Tenth Street?
CITIZEN: Between Marsaliis and Beckley. It's a police officer. Somebody shot him. What--what's... 404 Tenth Street.

The mention of the accent is in these transcripts - yet with Benavides there the entire time... why would he get on the radio to say the same exact thing from just minutes before? [size=12][size=12]Copied and Updated by Russ Shearer
Special Thanks To:
Mary Ferrell
Arch Kimbrough
and
Judy W. Bonner
Ver. 3.0 02-24-1995
[/SIZE]

1:19
CITIZEN: Hello, hello, hello. (Slight Mexican accent?)
[/SIZE]602: 602.
CITIZEN: Pardon, from out here on Tenth Street. 500 [size=12]block. This officer just shot. I think he's [size=12]dead.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
DIS: 10-4. We have that information. The citizen [size=12]using the radio: Remain off the radio now[/SIZE]


I have to assume you mean a different time that 11:05 & 11:32. this is the only Ch.1 transmission of "510 E. Jefferson"

[TABLE="width: 605"]
[TR]
[TD]1:16
[/TD]
[TD]Dispatcher
[/TD]
[TD]Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



So I guess I need you to point out to what you are referring...






There is an item of interest worth examining. Bowley's voice enters around 11:05 ("Hello, police operator?") followed by the shooting information and disclosure of the correct address. At 11:32 a different voice cuts in with a wrong address ("a police officer, 510 E. Jefferson"). For some reason the dispacher, ignoring the correct address given by Bowley, immediately broadcast the wrong one ("Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.").

Sawyer A omits the intrusive voice altogether which produces the absurdity of the dispatcher broadcasting an address he did not receive (p.395). Ditto the transcript at McAdams' site (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm). CE 1974 attributes the second address to the Citizen who gave the correct address a few seconds previously (p.53), which is ridiculous, but CE 705 gets it right (p.408): '(Some other unknown voice came in with "a police officer, 510 E. Jefferson").'

Whose voice is it? Move ahead to 13:00 and listen to Callaway. I think we have a match.

DJ, many questions I cannot answer, but one is easy.

Quote:Mentzel responds to this call with 222 also en route... I have to assume that "222" is the call sign fro patrol area 22 since there are no patrol areas with 3 numbers
222 was assigned to V.R. Nolan of the Traffic Division. Units 210 through 243 were reserved for accident supervisors & investigators.

As to the rest, yes, it is a bit much, but maybe not so much if a complete accurate transcript were available. Among the fragments we have the 510 E. Jefferson address is curious, located between Johnny Reynolds used car lot and the library. Did Callaway (or someone else) shove Bowley aside and blurt the misdirection (if so, why?), or is it an artifact brought about by tampering with or otherwise mis-processing the dictabelts?


We really must remember that it was the FOX who was asked to write up the account of his plundering the chicken coop...

It appears to me that they moved everything up 10 minutes.. there are numerous splices and numerous timeframes that are completely missing...

And to wind up at 1:45pm with the announcement that the suspect is running NORTH ON JEFFERSON when Postal had just called at 1:44

The "Running North" is line 1355 while "Texas Theater" is 1377.

RC NELSON is sent from Elm/Houston 7 miles to 4340 W Davis. He's there - according to these times - from 1:26 until 1:44 when he asks dispatch where the suspect in Oak Cliff was....

There was never a time the man ran NORTH on PATTON... unless that's a 2nd man... and/or we are missing conversation in that TAPE SPLICE which would suggest someone said something about a man on Patton (how else would DISPATCH know?)

Either that or Dispatcher Murray Jackson is trying to keep Nelson away from anything TIPPIT related...



[TABLE="width: 454"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:44
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"](Tape splice)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:44
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]87. What was the last location anybody had on that suspect out here in Oak Cliff?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:44
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]Running north on Patton.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="width: 454"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:44
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]79 (Ptm. B.N. Arglin)
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]79
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:44
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]79
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:44
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]79 (Ptm. B.N. Arglin)
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]I'm here at 19's location. Any message for him?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:44
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]10-4. We have information that a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:44
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]79 (Ptm. B.N. Arglin)
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]10-4.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:44
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]Supposed to be hiding in the balcony.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:44
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]79 (Ptm. B.N. Arglin)
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]10-4.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 626"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:40
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 317, bgcolor: transparent"]269 (Ptm. L.E. Beilharz)
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 437, bgcolor: transparent"]Will you check with my supervisor and see what he wants me to (splice in tape) go? I'm clear my second assignment.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


12:55
648. DIS: 211 car 2, call operator 1 at Parkland, car 2.
[size=12](Tape spliced and duplicated)

649. 211/2: 10-4.
1:04

9 minutes

1:12
840. DIS: Signal 9, manager's office, 4916 Live Oak.
(Tape spliced)
841. 212: 212.
1:15
3 minutes


[size=12][size=12][size=12][size=12]1:321164. DIS: West in the alley between Jefferson and Tenth.
(Tape splice)
1165. 85: 10-4.

1:33
1 min


1:44
1353. DIS: 10-4.
(Tape splice)
1354. 87: 87. What was the last location anybody had on that suspect out in here in Oak Cliff.
1355. DIS: Running north on Patton.
1:46
1-2 mins














[/SIZE]




[/SIZE]









[/SIZE]



[/SIZE]

[/SIZE]
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
R. Hunter
Reply
Quote:I have to assume you mean a different time that 11:05 & 11:32. this is the only Ch.1 transmission of "510 E. Jefferson"
11:05 & 11:32 refer to elapsed times of the c-span documentary. Two references to "510 E. Jefferson" show up in CE 705. The first, by an unknown speaker, is heard on the c-span tape. The second is spoken by the dispatcher.

Quote:CITIZEN: Hello, hello, hello. (Slight Mexican accent?)
The c-span tape stops before the second voice comes on. Have you heard this portion? Maybe someone can tell me how to identify a Mexican accent. Is it simply a matter of dropping the h's?

We may be concentrating on different segments of the transcript, but let's try to understand each other.
Reply
Just a thought: would the transcriptionist be describing a voice as having "a slight Mexican accent" because he/she was trying to put those words in the mouth of Domino Benavides, who (by his Hispanic name) could have been presumed to be of Mexican ethnicity?

Occam's razor--the simplest interpretation is often the best interpretation...

James Lateer
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